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So I would like to know what you guys think about how the bolter (across all codexes) could be improved. I'm looking your opinion on what works best for bolters from a purely mathematical and meta related viewpoint and not necessarily trying to reflect them 'fluff-wise' (especially since the game fails in this area fairly often) however your free to mention that if you want.

Bolters are the basic gun in 40k which everything else is based around, so by buffing the boltgun everything that is better than the boltgun will need a buff

Everyone is to concerned with their stuff not being good enough and they want bigger+better, when really what needs to be done is the armies that already are better need to be debuffed

That or you can just play for fun instead of competition

Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

SGTPozy wrote:
Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

I definitely think that SM bikes, skimmers, RP, and psycic shenanigans all around should be nerfed. At LEAST a point increase.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Agreed. SM, Eldar, Necrons and Daemons all need toning down.

I definitely think that SM bikes, skimmers, RP, and psycic shenanigans all around should be nerfed. At LEAST a point increase.

Luckily, Eldar and Space Marines aren't too far down the road.

We have 16 people that think bolters are fine, and yet we have one explanation as to WHY they are.

I'm of the point of view that if bolters were to get buffed it should be to give them a special rule that allows them to re-roll To Wound rolls of a 1.
I feel Shred is a bit too powerful for what is a basic gun used by 1/3 of the armies.

The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

Bolters are fine as they are, they are one of the best all around BASIC infantry weapons in the game.

The game works really well with bolters as they are. I find they provide a reasonable amount of power for a reasonably cost effective unit. Shred would turn them into accurate fluff but would destroy on the table. Assault 2 would turn them into not only powerful ranged weapons, but would give them a stupid good charge too. Perhaps assault 1, but rapid fire has a nice feeling to it as an infantry weapon.

Edit because I forgot this was in proposed rules.

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

40k needs a D100 system, and to drop about 50% of its rules.

Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

Or just give them relentless. Then nobody has to deal with 2 shots at 24".

I've been wanting to playtest bolt weapons re-rolling ones To Wound. Won't be happening or a while, though.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:
Let marines assault after use with bolters. Its a little baffling that firing off a volley prevents my genetically enhanced super soldiers from punching whatever they shot.

with overwatch the only armies that this would drastically hurt (swarms like nids, IG, Orks) will have the opportunity to volley fire into the advancing marines

I think Assault 2 for bolters would be a decent change.

The only armies this would hurt are arguably two of the weakest in the game that are in need of buffs not more hate :-P

Bolters are fine. S4 is actually pretty strong when compared to an elite trained human, at the prime of their life being at S3 T3. When people complain how underpowered the weapon is, they forget their scale is against super humans, terminator style robots, and bellowing fungi.

If, because you think the current editions don't have enough tables, you decided to rework 40K so that it used a larger dice and the stats went in a wider range, then bolters would probably see a slight increase when compared to other S4 weapons. In our current D6 system, tweaking them in any direction results in them becoming too powerful.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The game needs a die bigger than D6 to precisely depict all the weapons in the game.

40k needs a D100 system, and to drop about 50% of its rules.

My orks charge your marines. Here, let me throw this 100 d100 dice to hit and than another 50 d100 to wound and than you throw 25 d100 dice to save and another 8 d100 for fnp.
Oh, and now my power klaws pile in and throw another bunch of d100...eh, it's evening allready - got to go - working tomorrow.

Bolters aren't fine. They are a joke under the current rules. But there is no plausible, fix either.

I think the only thing that needs changing is as a previous poster said, marines should be able to charge after firing rapid fire weapons. I don't think the bolter statline needs to change at all.

If you really want boosted boltguns do what I do, play Imperial Fists tactics, it doesn't help the wounding but it does give you a few more hits everytime a tactical squad opens up.

I play BA where almost everything moves 12", and I still find it hard to even get to assault range. Marines are just not putting out enough dakka to reduce the dakka they are taking in return.

SGTPozy wrote:
Bolters are the basic gun in 40k which everything else is based around, so by buffing the boltgun everything that is better than the boltgun will need a buff

I really don't think the 30 lb bolter firing .77 cal explosive slugs should be the gun everything is based around. It is an insanely large weapon firing a large rocket propelled explosive slug. Realistically no man outside of someone in power armor could use such a weapon.

Here is an explanation of what 20mm grenades to today on the modern battle field.

(M433) High-Explosive. Dual Purpose Round. The HEDP round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel cup attached, white markings, and a gold ogive (head of the round). It penetrates at least 5 cm (2 inches) when fired straight at steel armor at 150 meters or less, or, at a point target, it arms between 14 and 27 meters, causes casualties within a 130-meter radius, and has a kill radius of 5 meters.[7]

Nothing about the bolter suggests it is a "standard" weapon. It is only standard on marines. Which are elite warriors used to spearhead attacks outnumbered unquestionably, with a reputation of complete and utter domination.

Realistically I think bolters should be blast weapons - that would really slow the game down so lets make it easy. assault 2 shred or rapid fire shred is about as close as we can get to what a bolter should be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters aren't fine. They are a joke under the current rules. But there is no plausible, fix either.

False - the plausible fix is to make them better. LOL.


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 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bolters are fine as they are, they are one of the best all around BASIC infantry weapons in the game.

Not fine at all. need shred.

There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

How are you going to balance around them though? Look at the way all basic guns in the game are designed. Lasguns, less powerful, less AP. Pulse rifles, more powerful, more range. Shiriken, shorter range, more shots. You also have to realise that not only SMs use bolters. Many IG things, CSMs, SoB, GKs, and inquisition all use bolters.

Not only that, the bolter is very powerful in tabletop when compared to a lasgun, which is more powerful as modern day rifles.

The bolter is powerful for a human weapon, but is a middling weapon when compared to the basic weapons on offer from all armies.




(Minor point, bolts are .75 cal, not .77)

Most of these fixes just make boltguns a hard counter to what they already soft counter. And those choices are already not taken, as their counters are too common/good as is. The problem of the Boltgun is more the meta then the gun itself.

Fixing a meta problem with a buff to the middle ground just pushes the power inflation. When Marines aren't even bottom of the stack for troops in the first place.

Or were you planning to buff everyone else to compensate? Didn't think so.

I could see something like change to Rapid Fire to allowing a disordered charge after firing, but it really is supposed to be a choice.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

Keep in mind, S4 + shred makes them more powerful than S5.

Bharring wrote:
Most of these fixes just make boltguns a hard counter to what they already soft counter. And those choices are already not taken, as their counters are too common/good as is. The problem of the Boltgun is more the meta then the gun itself.

Fixing a meta problem with a buff to the middle ground just pushes the power inflation. When Marines aren't even bottom of the stack for troops in the first place.

Or were you planning to buff everyone else to compensate? Didn't think so.

I could see something like change to Rapid Fire to allowing a disordered charge after firing, but it really is supposed to be a choice.

Marines should not be considered as regular infantry. They should be considered as elite's in other armies. Are we seriously saying tactical marines can hang with other elites? No...they can't - they don't even hang with IG vets, or firewarriors, or necron warriors (interestingly they all cost significantly less and can dish out better dmg vs a larger variety of targets)

comparing tacticals to other armies elites gets even more laughable. Show me an elite unit that doesn't wipe a 10 man tactical with relative ease. What does a marine squad wipe with ease? Nothing! marines currently inflict something like 5-6 casualties on a good day to stuff that they are "good" at killing. There is no meta problem. The problem is marines pay for stats that don't really help when you still die easy. If marines had more firepower they would still be useful though - as they would attract fire from hard hitting squads still but would also be able to eliminate said hard hitting squad.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no niche within the D6 system for the bolter. Shred is not a nuanced buff, it is a huge buff.

Willing to pay for it. What is it worth? +2 points?

Keep in mind, S4 + shred makes them more powerful than S5.

more powerful vs some thing. not more powerful vs av 11. Still though - results are similar to str5 vs most targets. IMO this is where a bolter should be.

"Show me an Elite choice that doesn't wipe a 10man tactical squad with ease":

CW Eldar:
Harlequins
Banshees
Scorpions

Marines:
Tac Termies
Assault Termies
Assault Cents
Rifle Dread

Tau:
Stealth Suits
Any non-Plasma Crisis Suit

Things Marines with Boltguns kill easily:
Guardians
Dire Avengers
Rangers
Wind riders
Banshees
Harlequins
Hawks
Dark Reapers
Kroot
Pathfinders
Kalabites
Wyches

Just a few answers off the top of my head.

I never said Tacs with Boltguns should be Elites. They are - and should be - Troops.

To be fair, tac squads are pretty helpless against scorpions and terminators.