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Quick question I ran across today. An iron priest with a thunderhammer is str9 (4 x2)+1. This is because the mount gives +1 str. Thunderwolves say in the book that the +1 str is already calculated in but normally it would have looked like 4(+1). Instead it shows as 5. So because the base model shows as str5 do their hammers count as str 10? Seems weird that one would be 10 where the other is 9.

Thanks for the help!

As you noted it's described as a modifier in the wargear itself, so it's Str9.

There is no such thing as a change to base stats anymore. Changing stats is handled by the modifiers rules, and nothing else.

Actually it is not described as a modifier it is described as an increase. This is were the debate lies because as grendel said only modifiers change stats. There are people who want the old space wolves faq that said they were 10 to stick, or at least be the RaI. Others want the rules to be really strict and even want the TWC to be s9. I personally don't run iron priests and give my TWC claws cuz it's cooler and I wont have to deal with any of the debates.

TWC are indeed strength 10 with thunder hammers, this cannot be disputed The unit entry specifically says base statline for the model is S5, so a hammer doubles this to 10.

As for the priest.... if we go off the order for modifiers, saying a wolf counts as +1 and the hammer counts as x2, it'd come out to 9. Which seems really dumb, since TWC are definitely 10. The rules are kind of vague here, and I feel it'd be odd for one guy to be S10 (which is undeniable) while another guy doing the same thing is only S9 (which is arguable).

So personally, I want to say that RAI "priest on a wolf" is actually a whole new model, and that being on the wolf isn't just a modifier.... it changes your entire unit type, so this new unit will also have a new unit entry, and that new unit entry will say S5 T5 etc. Which gives S10 hammers, to match TWC.

Just looking at the wording of the bike section, at no point is the word "modifier" used.

Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile.

In all other sections of the book, modifiers are referred to as "gain +1 attack" or "gain +1 strength"... I feel that the use of different wording (they don't say "gain +1 toughness") from literally everything else in the book is enough to imply that bikes change the unit entry instead of applying modifiers.

EDIT: Didn't have a copy of a wolves codex, just got a friend to send me picture, and yes, the wolf mount is worded the same way as bikes. It doesn't say that it gives +1 to stats like the rules for modifiers explain, it says that the stats are increased. When modifiers are first explained and throughout the remainder of the book, the wording "gain +1" are used, and here it isn't.

 kingbobbito wrote:
TWC are indeed strength 10 with thunder hammers, this cannot be disputed The unit entry specifically says base statline for the model is S5, so a hammer doubles this to 10.

As for the priest.... if we go off the order for modifiers, saying a wolf counts as +1 and the hammer counts as x2, it'd come out to 9. Which seems really dumb, since TWC are definitely 10. The rules are kind of vague here, and I feel it'd be odd for one guy to be S10 (which is undeniable) while another guy doing the same thing is only S9 (which is arguable).

So personally, I want to say that RAI "priest on a wolf" is actually a whole new model, and that being on the wolf isn't just a modifier.... it changes your entire unit type, so this new unit will also have a new unit entry, and that new unit entry will say S5 T5 etc. Which gives S10 hammers, to match TWC.

Just looking at the wording of the bike section, at no point is the word "modifier" used.

Bike and Jetbike riders benefit from an increase to their Toughness characteristic by 1. If the Bike or Jetbike is part of the model’s standard wargear, this bonus is already included on its profile.

In all other sections of the book, modifiers are referred to as "gain +1 attack" or "gain +1 strength"... I feel that the use of different wording (they don't say "gain +1 toughness") from literally everything else in the book is enough to imply that bikes change the unit entry instead of applying modifiers.

That is not at all correct.

They are Str 9, since the TW Mount adds +1 to their Str (Which is already included in their profile) and the hammer adds X2 str we have to look at the multiple modifiers rules to get our final Str score of 9...


Increasing a stat is a modifier...

 kingbobbito wrote:
it'd be odd for one guy to be S10 (which is undeniable)

It is actually quite deniable as per actual RAW...

"...a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1..."

The debate comes down to where you think "increases" is different in meaning to the wording for Modifiers in the rulebook:

"...can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc.)..."

If you think they mean the same thing in terms of the rules then they are S9. If you think they mean different things in terms of the rules they are S10.

End of story.

This debate has been done before

There was an FAQ that gave Wolf Lords/ Iron Priests S10 but it's since been removed.

The best answer is to clear it with your opponent before you play a game.

Mod lock before this becomes a repeat of other threads?

 DeathReaper wrote:

That is not at all correct.

They are Str 9, since the TW Mount adds +1 to their Str (Which is already included in their profile) and the hammer adds X2 str we have to look at the multiple modifiers rules to get our final Str score of 9...


Increasing a stat is a modifier...

 kingbobbito wrote:
it'd be odd for one guy to be S10 (which is undeniable)

It is actually quite deniable as per actual RAW...

Tell me, where do we find a units statistics? You find the characteristics profile of a model in the army list entry for that model in the codex. The characteristics profile tells you the WS, BS, S, T, etc.

Modifiers are specifically described as modifying said characteristics. Meaning that whatever the profile says is what my stats are before any modifiers. So, if this chart says I am strength 5, I am undeniably S5. In the course of a game I might have maledictions cast on me, I might get buffs, but I'll always be what that chart describes me as being, S5.

When it comes time to use a hammer, we look at what modifiers are going into effect. Well, before any modifiers are applied, we already have a strength of 5. Where does it say this? The characteristics profile in the army list entry of the TWC in the space wolves codex says S5. You don't say "what is the Strength of a marine?", you say "what is the strength of TWC?". TWC is not a marine, it is TWC, and you find the strength of TWC in the unit entry for TWC.... which says S5. You then double this for 10. Why would we base the strength of TWC off of the unit entry for something that isn't TWC?

So again, to summarize it all if you still don't believe me. First couple pages of the book explain that I can find a units characteristics profile, that all the rules for a model are in its entry, and the modifiers apply to the characteristics profile. Profile says 5, hammer says S x2, and 5 x 2 =10.

There's no way you can tell me to use something other S5 as the base strength of TWC, as the book specifically tells me that the rules for the unit are S5, and the rules for modifiers say to take the base strength times 2.

 Frozocrone wrote:
There was an FAQ that gave Wolf Lords/ Iron Priests S10 but it's since been removed.

The 6th edition FAQ stated the strength bonus was a modifier to the base characteristic, so S9 I think is in fact correct.

The best answer is to clear it with your opponent before you play a game.

Mod lock before this becomes a repeat of other threads?

Agreed.

Our local group got in a tizzy over this. I'm of the S9 for all thunderwolves camp, mainly because the S5 is including a +1 strength etc.

When we emailed GW about it (which yes I know is always a "grain of salt" type result), they said that things that permanently alter your profile, as in you're S5 for the game due to wargear, make your profile into S5 (or whatever 1 more than normal would be), and then the hammer/fist doubles that, meaning all thunderwolves, and characters on thunderwolves, and a chaos lord that gets the +1 strength boon roll, would all be S10.

"Temporary" modifiers, like furious charge or a psychic power, would add after doubling, making these models S9.

To which I thought "man that's awesome! Permanent modifiers alter your statline and get doubled, but temporary modifiers are added after doubling. Makes sense!"

Unfortunately that's not in the rules AT ALL, so it's wishful thinking.

Discuss with your gaming group. And bring popcorn. People will get VERY excited about this argument on both sides.

RaW they are all S9, my best guess is RaI they are all S10 and that's what I'd prefer to play if I play against wolves (don't play them myself). However whichever ruling you go for they are all the same so absolutely no reason to treat them differently.

And pointing out, upon decision when discussed with your opponent, that if you select the Thunderwolves Cavalry at S9 with hammer, then the following would also apply:
-Any Bike or Jet-Bike Unit required to do an Unmodified Toughness test would test on -1, as the bike is included in the profile.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And pointing out, upon decision when discussed with your opponent, that if you select the Thunderwolves Cavalry at S9 with hammer, then the following would also apply:
-Any Bike or Jet-Bike Unit required to do an Unmodified Toughness test would test on -1, as the bike is included in the profile.

How many Unmodified Toughness Tests are there in the game?

Genuinely curious.

 BlackTalos wrote:
And pointing out, upon decision when discussed with your opponent, that if you select the Thunderwolves Cavalry at S9 with hammer, then the following would also apply:
-Any Bike or Jet-Bike Unit required to do an Unmodified Toughness test would test on -1, as the bike is included in the profile.

But is there anything that specifies you got to pass an unmodified test to take any effect on a game?

Never said Unmodified Toughness tests existed. Just pointing out consistency if the question "What is the Toughness of Bikes?" comes up (as it has in the past)

Ed:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/366458.page
(irrelevant now)

What would be the ramifications in NON-SW Codices if the add to basic stat was applied before the multiplier? This seems to me to be a great test of whether it is RAW or RAI.

It would mean that Thunderwolves do their Hammer of Wrath attacks at S4...

The only people in the world that are going to claim that thunderwolves are really S/T 4 will be found on this forum. Its such an absurd debate that it isn't really worth having.

I suspect the intent of those types are that they are meant to be an alteration to the base profile and not subject to the normal rules for modifiers. However, RAW does not make that especially clear (as the rule book never mentions a pre game modifier), so RAW wise they do fall under those rules.

As I read it, they are meant to be base S5, though it's worded so that wolf lords etc are S4+1. As far as I can see the mention of it being included in the profile of those that come with a thunderwolf as standard is so that people don't then claim they are S5+1

Wow, I didn't expect this to be a huge topic of debate. Thanks for all the info. I'll see what my gaming group thinks so that people don't get upset. And yes, I'll bring popcorn and a michael Jackson cutout.

Daemon princes sure would like to not be insta-killed.

Rhinos sure would like a chance at taking a glancing hit instead of auto-pens.

Makes charging a squad of ogryns or non-nurgle spawn solo a risky prospect instead of donkey-kong hammertime.

Wounds wraith knights on a 3+ rather than a 2+ and glancing dreadnoughts to a 3+ instead of a 2+, which is a pretty big change.

Means you no longer insta-kill most of the "tough" HQ choices in the game like biker chapter masters or chaos lords, meaning there's an actual fight to be had.

You know, those kinds of things.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Meaning that whatever the profile says is what my stats are before any modifiers.

This is demonstrably untrue.

The Thunder Wolf Mount is a modifier to Str that is added into the stat line for TWC.

 Spellbound wrote:
Daemon princes sure would like to not be insta-killed.

Rhinos sure would like a chance at taking a glancing hit instead of auto-pens.

Makes charging a squad of ogryns or non-nurgle spawn solo a risky prospect instead of donkey-kong hammertime.

Wounds wraith knights on a 3+ rather than a 2+ and glancing dreadnoughts to a 3+ instead of a 2+, which is a pretty big change.

Means you no longer insta-kill most of the "tough" HQ choices in the game like biker chapter masters or chaos lords, meaning there's an actual fight to be had.

You know, those kinds of things.

That's actually exactly why I brought it up. I play (occasionally) against a demon summoning list. If my guys are str10 with the hammers, I have a very good chance of winning. If not, I have a MUCH worse chance. Him and I were the ones who were having this debate (though he was playing white scars that day). I wanted to know because I don't wanna accidentally cheat and one shot his demons (though I wouldn't mind doing it if it's legal).

 koooaei wrote:


But is there anything that specifies you got to pass an unmodified test to take any effect on a game?

Not that I found when doing a decent amount of research on this topic a while ago, characteristic tests are done on modified stats (+1T for bikers).

The debate is simple and endless, cause clearly the TWM is a modifier, and the rulebook only allows for one type of modifier thus making any weapon carried on a TWM fall under multiple modifier rules RAW. even if the wording is interesting at the very basic level cause they say two slightly different things when you read the rules. But the BRB doesn't allow for that so RAW hands are tied. Str 9 it is. All this is why I check with my opponents before we play, I will make a short point for Str 9, as that's what i believe they are, if they disagree we play Str 10, simple as.

Im liking this topic, got a mate with a TWC list, always just assumed that they hit at strength 10 on the charge with hammers (and havent questioned it either, seemed legit to me)... but hey maybe all this time I have been shafting myself

RAW TWC are str 10, characters on a TW are str 9.

HIWPI all of them are str 10. It makes no sense otherwise.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
RAW TWC are str 10, characters on a TW are str 9.

HIWPI all of them are str 10. It makes no sense otherwise.

RAW it is not Str 10, thats the whole point. and you cannot seriously argue that ICs are Str 9 and TWC are Str 10. They all must be the same, or rules are broken along the way in selection.

See Im curious as to why they would word them differently..

Bikes and TWC both say "increases" by 1.

Things like furious charge are "adds +1".... Both terminology can be seen several times throughout the book...

To me that says they are trying to make them specifically different (however doing a crap job at it).

Until I see an FAQ or something saying otherwise I will probably let me mate keep playing them as hitting at 2xStr 5

 Harial89 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
RAW TWC are str 10, characters on a TW are str 9.

HIWPI all of them are str 10. It makes no sense otherwise.

RAW it is not Str 10, thats the whole point. and you cannot seriously argue that ICs are Str 9 and TWC are Str 10. They all must be the same, or rules are broken along the way in selection.

Incorrect, they have different stat lines.

TWC are inherently Str 5. A character is Str 4.

The TWC will double their Str to 10. A character, as per the rules regarding addition and multiplication of stats, would double his first, and then +1.

As said, it doesn't make sense, and is not how I would play it.

Except no-where in the BRB does it allow for different types of modifiers, the TWC statline contains a modified Str. The wargear entry for the TWM tells us so. RAW you have to account for that increase in Str when applying the x2 Modifiers. as that makes two modifiers, you simply have to.