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Just a thought I had (since i have Eldar (Waaaaah! NO ONE WILL PLAY ME EVER! I AM SO CHEESE...erm sorry. Moving on with actual tactical discussion) Eldar bikes in groups of 5 (To preserve mobility, and make a squad of scions (130pts) roughly equal the 135 pts of the bikes)

1x Commissar
1x Command Squad w/4x Hot-Shot Volley Guns
3x Scion Squad w/5 extra Scions
4x Valks with MRP

1080 Points

Vs

8 groups of 5 riders with SL. (1080 pts)

On the turn they drop in (cross flight-paths as necessary/able, max-speed on to the field, Drop Scions)

Scion Squads can potentially pump out 18 BS4 TL S3 AP3 Shots resulting in ~4.45 Wounds for the bikes to handle. If they don't jink, well...there goes 80% of their fire power if they are in the open, if they do jink, they lose on average 2 bikes, (40% of their fire power), and the remaining 3 bikes are hitting on 6s.

The Command Squad is putting out 8 TL S4 AP3 Shots for 3 wounds for a unit of bikes. If you give the PE order it raises it marginally (0.68 wounds). Again, they jink or they die.

Each Valk can put out up to 2 Large Blast Templates at Str 4 AP 6 and 3 Multilaser shots of S6 AP 6. The multi-laser might do another wound on a unit of bikes. Hard to account for the killing of the MRPs.

Seems this is a decent amount of fire power that can get in closer to bikes for a decent strike. Assuming the MRPs don't kill anything: ~1/4 of the bikes are dead, another ~1/4 are only hitting on 6s. So instead of 160 incoming shots you're facing 40 BS4, 40 BS1, an average of 33.2 hits, 27.5 Wounds, of which 13 are unsaved.

What to do with the other 770 points? I'm thinking of Grey Knights with a Nemesis Strike Force of Terminators, a Brother Captain, and 2 Dreadknights, and purposely going second. The 1st turn the Eldar get to do squat with their army, 1st wave of knights drops in (1 of the 3 units is likely to not arrive, but that's ok) as close to the bikes or the opposing big nasty and just soften things up as much as possible before the second turn. Even if everything is wiped off the board in Eldar Turn 2, you still get to play your turn 2 (Auto-lose only happens at the end of the game turn! )

Another option would be to drown Eldar in bodies. 770 Points could be 1 CCS and 2 Infantry Platoons with 1 PCS, 4 Infantry Squads, and a 50 conscript blob with commissar. That's 197 models on the table (good luck fitting that somehow. :-p). They may not be particularly impressive but they just form a wall of "Move forward and cover territory with "Bikes don't go here." This one is more silly and I am sure there are a bunch of better options.

The thing with bikes is that you need to kill most of them in one go or they'll just outrange and outshoot you later on. Besides, you need to be very lucky with scatters for dropping scions.

You also need to ensure you come in turn 2 or it's gona be too late to catch him up on points in maelstorm, so adl with comms relay would be needed.

Also, sacrafice a chicken to dice gods as you have chances only if everything goes your way.

You get to reroll the reserve for the formation, so you have an 87% chance of them arriving on Turn 2. Not bad really.

And yes, for Maelstrom bikes definitely have a serious advantage. For a casual game, I don't know that I'd go up against a super heavy bike list for Maelstrom to begin with.

Can you reliably mitigate deepstriking problems? As you'll have to go pretty close - preferably within 9" to do max damage. Or wait till turn 3 to go in hover.

I know there are vehicle options to negate scatter and servo sculls but it's hard to imagine any vehicle or servo scull to live through turn one with all theand s6 and S: D flying around.

Reroll scatter when you drop with Grav-chutes. And there is a warlord trait that reduces it to 1d6. Wasn't giving allll the rules for the formation. :-p

Than it's pretty fine! If you get the WL trait ofc.

Got to figure out ways not to get tabled 1-st turn, however. Maybe something like msu ratlings hiding out of los and a broken up platoon behind ADL with a bunch of conscripts. Preferably with comissars so that you could g2g when needed to enchance durability.

One reason I suggested a Nemesis Strike Force, and purposefully going 2nd if at all able. If your opponent is forcing you to go first, then hiding as best you are able and coming out to fight on your turn. Definitely higher risk, but hey!

Also one reason I suggested the 197 model method as well. :-)

I like it; but then again I have a love hate relationship with deepstriking.

Perhaps that Plasma Obliterator fortification w/ comms relay, have a Inquisitor with w/ that item that gives him BS10 against psykers and servo-skulls and you got perhaps a formidable chance of getting you deepstrike in where you want.

If they do get ranged D weapons you'll have to leave any expensive buildings or vehicles without decent saves on the shelves.

Wyverns and some air support seem good against bikes

I think your math is off.
8 times 5 is 40, each scatter laser has 4 shots. 160 shots, each bike squad puts out 20.
You can only target 4 squads because you only have 4 to shoot with. So even if those squads jink, you still have 80, not 40 BS4 scatter laser shots coming your way, plus 32-48 BS1 shots (depending on if you killed 2 or 3 per squad).

You should just use flesh tearer drop pods list.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think your math is off.
8 times 5 is 40, each scatter laser has 4 shots. 160 shots, each bike squad puts out 20.
You can only target 4 squads because you only have 4 to shoot with. So even if those squads jink, you still have 80, not 40 BS4 scatter laser shots coming your way, plus 32-48 BS1 shots (depending on if you killed 2 or 3 per squad).

It's possible, I was up way later than I was supposed to be. :-p I had 80 originally and I reduced it because I thought my math was off.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
You should just use flesh tearer drop pods list.

This.
Alpha strike the bikes, kill and panic as many as you can.

If bikes become super common, I'll use the webway triple threat.
Archon with webway and phatasm grenade launcher, 2 medusa, mounted in venom with 2 cannons.
Archon forces Ld test on one target, medusa drop S4 AP3 templates on another, and the venom pops off 12 poison shots on a 3rd target.

I have no idea what to do about wraith knight(s). Maybe throw in Ichor Injector talos and hope I roll 6's and he doesn't. More likely to ignore it.

-Matt

Its also worth noting the scions don't take dangerous terrain tests when they deep strike in from the valk

Valks are not worth It and cost too much. Bringing 5-6 drop pods is much more cost efficient and precise. You can still bring 3 scion squads and plus able to include melta vets squads. Ccs can give the vets ignore cover order. Including meltas makes the army more capable to deal with other big threats like WK.

I guarantee you eldar bike spam armies will include 2-3 WKs.

For the people saying Flesh Tearers lists...I am just going to put this simply since it's a pet peeve of mine:

The idea here was more an AM/TS solution (partly because that's what I play!) Not a "Completely ignore the SUBJECT of the thread and start a new thread" thread.

That being said. I agree Drop Pods have some advantages, however, the Valks are part of the formation (thus the commissar in there doing its thing as well)
The Formation benefit gives you Twin Linked And Split Fire when you Grav-chute, and you reroll scatter on the grav-chute. Effectively giving you 8 free orders. Valks may not be the cheapest but they are a decently delivery platform and 4 of them can lay down a total of 8 large blast templates across a field of fire. Against bike swarms which will be taking up a lot of space you're bound to hit something. Even taking out only 1-2 bikes from units is pretty good. If a bike swarm decides to fire at the valk instead of the scions, hey that's a win. Front or Side armor they will likely do about 1 HP of damage, and that's if you don't jink. If they are behind you and you jink they are likely to only get 1-2 HP of damage, and though then you are losing your fire power. But in a crowded battlefield (40 bikes takes up a lot of space) if you are near spread out bikes and they shoot down a valk, there's a chance it will crash into the bikes and explode and kill another bike. And hey, it absorbed a round of shooting and losing a 135 pt Valk to the shooting of to a 270pt Unit is not the worst trade in the world.

Each Valk/Full Scion Squad is cheaper than a unit of 10 bikes.
Basically it's a partial counter to the spam lists with something that can be taken as a battle-brother to Imperium of Man Armies.

While we're on the subjects of Wraithknights, if you are taking all kinds of allies, I'd recommend things with grav guns. Especially anything that can deep-strike near one. It may not survive the return fire but 3 Centurians with twin-linked Grav Guns (I don't have the rule book for these guys so I am going mostly on memory) can put 15 shots into it, wound it on a 3+, and ignore its armor. If it is the dual-wraith cannon (The Str D ranged weapons) it is quite likely not to have an invul save at all. Which means in 1 turn you wiped it off the board. The other D option is the sword which it apparently swings at I1. And it's stomps are at I1. So all of its attacks are I1. I know there are things out there with Str 10 AP 2 or better that could well swing before the thing starts swinging back. Charge into it and jack that puppy up.

But definitely alpha-strikes will be very valuable against bike-spam lists.

Lendys wrote:
For the people saying Flesh Tearers lists...I am just going to put this simply since it's a pet peeve of mine:

The idea here was more an AM/TS solution (partly because that's what I play!) Not a "Completely ignore the SUBJECT of the thread and start a new thread" thread.


While we're on the subjects of Wraithknights, if you are taking all kinds of allies, I'd recommend things with grav guns. Especially anything that can deep-strike near one. It may not survive the return fire but 3 Centurians with twin-linked Grav Guns (I don't have the rule book for these guys so I am going mostly on memory) can put 15 shots into it, wound it on a 3+, and ignore its armor.

It's got feel no pain. You'd want ~1 or more centurions to make sure it's dead.