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 Grey Templar wrote:


Shotguns are also something to wait till they're a little more comfortable. Too many videos of people getting laid out on their butts or having the gun smack them in the face.

laughing in redneck

On the mention of smaller sized shotguns, I’m assuming they’re no less shooty than a regular sized one?

And for us larger folk, you’re reliant mostly on a longer stock for a comfortable fit?

By smaller, do you mean smaller gauge or smaller physically?

A 20-gauge or .410 kicks a lot less than a 12-gauge. A sawed off 12-gauge kicks like a mule, though it is dependent on what load you have.

Buddy of mine has a 20-gauge break action which I can comfortably one hand arm extended like a pistol. I wouldn't dream of doing the same if it was in 12-gauge.

 CptJake wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
When teaching new people, do you prefer to start with what platform? I have zero experience of this, only ever had to fire rifles of whatever type. But is there an advantage/disadvantage in starting with a pistol (revolver/automatic), rifle (bolt/semi auto) or shotgun?

I almost always start with the .22 M4 I mentioned.

Is that cost? I have only ever fired the demo 5.56 with no gadgets and bling from the small arms room at Shriv and the recoil didn't seem to be a problem - but that was only a dozen or so rounds as it was part of a serial trying to get us to understand doctrine differences with the US. Is next to no recoil better for getting people to ease in? How long before you have them learning to deal with heavier recoil?

Some people can have a real fear of recoil but it usually goes away pretty quickly. I wouldn't see any issue in starting with 5.56 but starting with .22 won't harm anything. But it could depend on the person in question. They might be extra nervous with 5.56 from a mental standpoint so smaller could be better for them. Preconceived notions do surround that caliber.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Some people can have a real fear of recoil but it usually goes away pretty quickly. I wouldn't see any issue in starting with 5.56 but starting with .22 won't harm anything. But it could depend on the person in question. They might be extra nervous with 5.56 from a mental standpoint so smaller could be better for them. Preconceived notions do surround that caliber.

People are also sensitive to noise, and even with protection, 5.56 can be pretty loud if one is not used to it.

AR platforms also have the "ka-ching" of the bolt cycling, which some people find disturbing.

A Ruger 10-22, on the other hand is small, light and fairly quiet, with minimal recoil. It's a reasonable choice as a training aid and also fun for small game and target work.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:



AR platforms also have the "ka-ching" of the bolt cycling, which some people find disturbing.

Well, actually, when I first shot the HK416 for a couple of time, that sound was making me mad as it rattled in my ears with the pitch of cray on a schoolboard.

Hopefully I unheard it after a few session. But did I hate that noise from the bottom of my heart.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
When teaching new people, do you prefer to start with what platform? I have zero experience of this, only ever had to fire rifles of whatever type. But is there an advantage/disadvantage in starting with a pistol (revolver/automatic), rifle (bolt/semi auto) or shotgun?

I almost always start with the .22 M4 I mentioned.

Is that cost? I have only ever fired the demo 5.56 with no gadgets and bling from the small arms room at Shriv and the recoil didn't seem to be a problem - but that was only a dozen or so rounds as it was part of a serial trying to get us to understand doctrine differences with the US. Is next to no recoil better for getting people to ease in? How long before you have them learning to deal with heavier recoil?

I have a Walther/Umarex M4 made to fire .22. I have a red dot sight on it, and it is co-witnessed with the iron sights. New shooters get some instruction, and then I give them the gun with a 30 round magazine. I stand slightly behind and to the left so I can see safety clearly and see how they are aligning sights/aiming and see how rifle is being held/trigger is being squeezed. The no recoil put them at ease, and the almost guaranteed hits as long as they get the 'how to aim' concept (it is zeroed to drive nails...) makes it fun. We shoot at steel targets (some pictures of my range in this topic) so there is a satisfying feeling as the targets move when hit, and actual round placement doesn't need to be perfect to move the plates.

After that magazine is done, depending on their level of comfort I'll move them on to a 5.56 version. After a couple mags of that I typically pull out the M1A SOCOM 7.62 with a 16 inch barrel. The muzzle device on it really lessens felt recoil to close to what the 5.56 feels like but it is LOUDER and knocks the crap outta the targets that the .22 barely moved and the 5.56 hit nicely. Then we get to handguns most of the time.

Bottom line, we're running through .22 to 5.56 to (sometimes 7.62 NATO) to 9mm in an hour or two of range time. I have a 9mm SIG MPX that serves as a good transition from the rifles to pistols too. A lot less recoil than 5.56 and get them into the pistol calibers. "Okay, now this (Glock/Taurus/Springfield/etc) is also 9mm, just like you just shot."

 CptJake wrote:
Bottom line, we're running through .22 to 5.56 to (sometimes 7.62 NATO) to 9mm in an hour or two of range time. I have a 9mm SIG MPX that serves as a good transition from the rifles to pistols too. A lot less recoil than 5.56 and get them into the pistol calibers. "Okay, now this (Glock/Taurus/Springfield/etc) is also 9mm, just like you just shot."

That's a good progression to use. I like it.

On "first gun shot". Mine was a single action 22 mag revolver, before kindergarten (so, 3 to 4?). I still remember the ear ringing crack. Hillbilly stuff.

I shot an air rifle first. Pretty typical in the UK, air rifles below a certain threshold don't require a license to own.

Probably an Air Rifle for me too, the joys of parents massively involved in Scouting, and their Pack Holidays being my family holidays.

Came to be a pretty decent shot. Whilst I couldn’t tell you the distance, at Scout Camp I was the only one able to hit a 20p piece on the range. And did so consistently.

But outside of Laserquest and my LARP crossbow (bungeeeeeeeee power!) I’ve not shot anything for the thick end of 30 years.

 Haighus wrote:
I shot an air rifle first. Pretty typical in the UK, air rifles below a certain threshold don't require a license to own.

Same here for many shooters, but I for one started in the army with the FAMAS

 Haighus wrote:
I shot an air rifle first. Pretty typical in the UK, air rifles below a certain threshold don't require a license to own.

Same in France. Airguns below 20 Joules are category D, so no licence required. Anything higher counts as Category C, which requires a hunting license.
Funnily enough, black powder weapons are also D, so you can, in theory, own a musket for home defense with no needed paperwork.

I too started with .22LR. While vacationing with a buddy we stopped at a small store/range really not knowing much about firearms besides what looked cool in the latest Arnold film, Counterstrike, etc. We were respectful with the two older guys behind the counter and they took a liking to us then gave us some shooting lessons.

We started with a .22LR revolver and a toylike pump action rifle but were eager to move on after a box of ammo. We shot every gun in the rental case and then as we were leaving one asked if we wanted to have some fun and brought out two NFA subguns from the back room, an Uzi and ,45 M3. I'm sure they were happy to have the business as we were the only customers and were there for hours, they showed us a great time and I began buying guns of my own shortly after. I think its helpful if not necessary to start with .22LR, and that all those .22 versions of "real" semi autos are great training tools, with the lower reliability of rimfire/rimfire mags being a feature rather than a bug when used that way.


Regarding "fear" of recoil, you don't have to fear it to anticipate it, and many/most new shooters will flinch in anticipation of recoil, spoiling their accuracy. Practicing with a revolver is a good way of identifying and correcting this (don't load all the chambers and spin the cylinder before firing). You can mix some snap caps in with your ammo and blind load semi auto pistol mags for the same effect, but revolvers are a lot easier. On the flip side, its a lot easier to do most other shooting drills with a semi auto, and tbh you might not want to be trying to put those drills into your muscle memory if a revolver is going to be your go to gun.

Started with a C7A2 in the army myself.

Another super basic question.

From real life and teevee and films? I notice that whilst Shotgun shells are typically red, the shells themselves also come in white and green. And possibly other colours.

I’m guessing those are coded colours? If so, what do they code to?

Don't know the answer, but have black, blue and yellow ones in addition to red and green. Don't know I've seen white.

 CptJake wrote:
Don't know the answer, but have black, blue and yellow ones in addition to red and green. Don't know I've seen white.

In the old days, it was was brown for 10ga, red or black for 12ga, purple for 16ga, yellow for 20ga, green for 28ga, then back to red for .410 bore, but that standard stopped back in the 1970s.

White might be Federal, since I remember they made shotgun shells in Red, White, and Blue, but white I've also seen it mean the shell was loaded with Willy Pete, but that might just be something the local mayor does.

I assume this could be brand based: brands differentiate their different ammo by various shell colours, however I don't think it follows any actual guideline.

The one I use are the blue Solognac shotgun shells I buy at Decathlon sports store. They are way less expensive but do the trick perfectly for most uses. Only drawback is that they're not as powerful so I believe it as sometimes happened that semi auto shotguns would struggle, but that 's a rare occurence anyway.

Mine being a Browning auto 5, has got zero problem shooting that.

Shotshell color doesn't really mean anything these days. Most do red, but some do white, black, clear, yellow, etc... Within a single manufacturer it might mean something, but its not going to hold across different ones.

Shot shells specific color is a marketing thing these days. Nothing to do with actual load or anything. Unless it's got the dreaded White band on a Red/gold striped shell, then you've found the MUCHOGRANDE shell, can only be fired from EL JEFFE GIGIJANTES. /s

Selling my Wilson Combat CQB this weekend, made me think of a comment for starters here. Many 1911's can easily be swapped for a .22 slide, barrel, and magazine. They make a .22 conversion kit that goes on any 1911. Seriously cuts down on Range costs, and makes it easier to break in new shooters to good habits. Usually about $150-300 depending on brand.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another super basic question.

From real life and teevee and films? I notice that whilst Shotgun shells are typically red, the shells themselves also come in white and green. And possibly other colours.

I’m guessing those are coded colours? If so, what do they code to?

20 gauge shells are always yellow as a safety precaution. It is possible to put a 20 gauge in a larger bore weapon and have it jam.
I shoot a fair amount of 20 gauge and it is always yellow.

Speaking of shotgun myths, I remember being in a Vampire game in 1990s and they treated incendiary ammo ("Dragonsbreath") shotgun shells as being super-rare and hard to find (they caused fire damage to vampires, very scary).

Of course, I knew otherwise, so I called a local shop, got a price quote and in the next session told the referee that my character had a case of them, and if he didn't believe me, he could go there and see it for himself.

While I absolutely hate the Taurus Judge for what it did to .410 ammo production, I do relish the notion of a vampire hunter having one loaded with "Dragonsbreath."

I’m still getting my head round that “exotic” shotgun shells like Dragonsbreath and that bolos one actually exist!

But building on my ignorance, and because I’ve been playing Fallout 4, where you only get “Shotgun Shells”? If, for whatever reason, you came across a box of random Shotgun Shells, of the same gauge…could you out which is which? Like, birdshot, regular, diet, cherry etc?