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Lately, i've started to move towards warhammer fantasy (originally a 40k player). But when i started to love the story line, i heard of this "End times" that everyone is and has been talking about. All i ever hear is "the end of the world, then end of the game!." but realistically, i don't see how the game has ended, there are still plenty skaven, lizardmen, empire and elves and more still out there fighting. And they've practically united. All of O&G have united, elves have sort of united, empire, tileans, estalians and dwarfs (and some ogres too) have united while brettonia have a civil war for a while. So yeah, there are still magic incarnates, a bomb load of battlefields on a practically new planet. It may be called the "end times" but really i see this as a new beginning for whfb. This is practically the same before but with some changes in alliances and it's a lot less easy to survive for everyone. So what if chaos is getting stronger, thats what happens in 40k too when the emperor eventually dies and the big purple thing envelops half the galaxy.
My point is, all iv'e heard is that whfb will be dead and we will have to use old fluff and rules. But there's no point in it unless it goes REALLY badly. What are your opinions dakkanaughts?
GW has a lot of competition in this genre, namely Warmahordes and Malifaux.
I have played Warmahordes pretty loyally for 11 years and it's a great game. The learning curve is steep and can be discouraging. The game can end very quickly with an assassination.
I have played WHFB over the years and I like that it's pretty beer & pretzels. It involves strategy, but nowhere near the intense, frantic strategy of Warmahordes.
So, same genre, basically, but two very different games.
Does WHFB have any gas left in its tank with all of this competition and with the utterly stupid way GW treats its fans and retailers?
Do people want to paint upwards of 300 minis to play a 2500 point game with little to no play testing by the manufacturer?
Do people want to spend $1000's of dollars to build an army? Will that army be competitive when the next Codex comes out?
The answer to all of these questions depends on GW. They have the fans, the overall system is pretty good, they make great models(except for Finecrap), and they have a niche in the market.
The question is, how do they market, play test, develop, and perpetuate WHFB in the future?
If I were them, I would base it off of game system models that work, namely Magic the Gathering.
They could introduce a Core Book with the rules and all of the base units for each army, kinda like PP does in Prime and Primal.
Then they could introduce a Campaign Setting Book with terrain guidelines, fluff about the pocket dimension, new Characters for each army, and Avatars. They could add to this world through Compendiums that further the fluff, introduce new characters, and expand playable missions. They can also use these to rebalance the armies. After two-three years of fighting in this pocket dimension, they could draw a close on that storyline and move onto another one, thus ending the block.
In the next storyline, your old characters are defunct. Avatar characters could advance because they should be able to transcend time, space, and dimension, much like Planeswalkers in MtG.
The newly defunct Characters can join the Olde World Characters in a Legacy type setting, so will still be playable, just not in the new pocket dimension.
Your Core Units and Kits would always be valid and could be updated with bits to fit the aesthetic of the New Campaign Setting, as an option.
This would make old players happy, bring in new players, balance the game, and let GW sell a ton of minis, but that's just my two cents.
Daner0023 wrote: GW has a lot of competition in this genre, namely Warmahordes and Malifaux.
I have played Warmahordes pretty loyally for 11 years and it's a great game. The learning curve is steep and can be discouraging. The game can end very quickly with an assassination.
I have played WHFB over the years and I like that it's pretty beer & pretzels. It involves strategy, but nowhere near the intense, frantic strategy of Warmahordes.
So, same genre, basically, but two very different games.
Does WHFB have any gas left in its tank with all of this competition and with the utterly stupid way GW treats its fans and retailers?
Do people want to paint upwards of 300 minis to play a 2500 point game with little to no play testing by the manufacturer?
Do people want to spend $1000's of dollars to build an army? Will that army be competitive when the next Codex comes out?
The answer to all of these questions depends on GW. They have the fans, the overall system is pretty good, they make great models(except for Finecrap), and they have a niche in the market.
The question is, how do they market, play test, develop, and perpetuate WHFB in the future?
If I were them, I would base it off of game system models that work, namely Magic the Gathering.
They could introduce a Core Book with the rules and all of the base units for each army, kinda like PP does in Prime and Primal.
Then they could introduce a Campaign Setting Book with terrain guidelines, fluff about the pocket dimension, new Characters for each army, and Avatars. They could add to this world through Compendiums that further the fluff, introduce new characters, and expand playable missions. They can also use these to rebalance the armies. After two-three years of fighting in this pocket dimension, they could draw a close on that storyline and move onto another one, thus ending the block.
In the next storyline, your old characters are defunct. Avatar characters could advance because they should be able to transcend time, space, and dimension, much like Planeswalkers in MtG.
The newly defunct Characters can join the Olde World Characters in a Legacy type setting, so will still be playable, just not in the new pocket dimension.
Your Core Units and Kits would always be valid and could be updated with bits to fit the aesthetic of the New Campaign Setting, as an option.
This would make old players happy, bring in new players, balance the game, and let GW sell a ton of minis, but that's just my two cents.
Why is it people think that GW releasing some new rules or a new book that they're somehow recanting all previously released material? It's not like your 8th edition books will go up in flames the second that the last end times books are released, so why not just keep playing?
You know what we do now OP? We play the game. It's what we do. Is it going to change? Yes, will it be perfect? No. But we're going to play it our way, we're going to have fun, or we're going to go to another game.
Shadowrun is the best game ever. It's the only thing I have ever played in which I have jumped out of a shot out van with a chainsaw to cut a flying drone in half before leveling a building with ANFO assisted by a troll, a dwarf, an elf, and a wizard.
We haven't seen 9th. We have just buckets of unsubstantiated and at times conflicting rumors.
My group and I are in wait and see mode. We're not buying much, for sure, but if we like 9th great. If we don't, we still all REALLY like 8th enough to keep playing it.
Make your own choice.
For those that don't have the luxury of a group such as mine that is okay playing a game edition on pause in perpetuity, i'd suggest if you don't like 9th, look at Kings of War. If that doesn't float your boat (and it does not mine, i find it a little bland), look at other games. God knows there's more than enough good ones out in the market. The skirmish level market is literally flooded with so many good games, i can't see them all surviving in the long term. The regimental sized market ... isn't... but sometimes there isn't an answer for everything.
Wait and see. If you like WHFB, give 9th a whirl. If you hate it, put your 9th stuff on ebay or bartertown, you'll find buyers / traders no problem in the early days of its availability. Play KoW or something else. Maybe give 10th a passive glance years from now. Or not.
Essentially : continue playing games you like. Be they this game, or new games.
And to hopefully circumvent the circuitous and questionable but inevitable rambling about markets and listening to customers and economics and voting with wallets and customer abuse and all that other noise.... again ; continue playing games you like. Be it this game or others. If you feel like an abused customer, its probably time to move on whether or not 9th ends up good or not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/17 23:42:53
My whole gaming group has basically stopped making new WHFB purchases altogether...
...as we do every time there is a pending edition/book change. Why throw money at something when major changes are in the pipeline? Who knows what the future may hold. I'm finishing painting models for a few tournaments I have coming up, but mostly I am in wait-and-see mode.
That said I really, *really* doubt the changes are going to be anywhere near as sweeping as people are suggesting. There will be large changes to business model, but I hazard that the rule system will remain largely the same. I think End Times is a harbinger of what is to come, and we're going to see stuff released in smaller chunks via battlescrolls, fluff books, and sub-faction books meant to be incorporated into an "allied force" rather than a truly standalone faction.
...as we do every time there is a pending edition/book change. Why throw money at something when major changes are in the pipeline? Who knows what the future may hold. I'm finishing painting models for a few tournaments I have coming up, but mostly I am in wait-and-see mode.
That said I really, *really* doubt the changes are going to be anywhere near as sweeping as people are suggesting. There will be large changes to business model, but I hazard that the rule system will remain largely the same. I think End Times is a harbinger of what is to come, and we're going to see stuff released in smaller chunks via battlescrolls, fluff books, and sub-faction books meant to be incorporated into an "allied force" rather than a truly standalone faction.
The problem is pretty much everyone has stopped buying WHFB, even the people who still play 8th. They aren't imploding the world and going all Year Zero because sales are good. Everyone has two or three armies laying around and have little need to purchase anything.
A lot of people have stopped playing because it's a lot of preparation, deployment, game time, and monetary investment. On the other hand I can set up Attack Wing and in 5 minutes I have Dragons flying around tearing each other apart.
I like the system and I would like to see it thrive again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 02:56:13
blood ravens addiction wrote: there are still plenty skaven, lizardmen, empire and elves and more still out there fighting.
No there isn't. They LITERALLY destroyed the world. All that is left is a "spark".
As for what we do now, we keep playing 8th and wait to see what 9th does. If it sucks people will continue t play 8th for a time until that slowly dies off.
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I personally am making a pretty significant inroad into my painting pile. The Elves are sitting unloved, but the other stuff is coming on at a fair old clip. Good to get ahead of the percentage a little, since I expect to have a moderate injection of new plastic next month sometime if/when the Skirmish effort hits.
Charles Rampant wrote: I personally am making a pretty significant inroad into my painting pile. The Elves are sitting unloved, but the other stuff is coming on at a fair old clip. Good to get ahead of the percentage a little, since I expect to have a moderate injection of new plastic next month sometime if/when the Skirmish effort hits.
Honestly the rumours have sapped my will to paint fantasy. I'm still doing enough for my garagehammer hobby commitment challenge but most my paint time is going to WM/H. I don't want to paint 40 black ark corsairs only to find out they no longer exist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/18 10:01:01
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Aben Zin wrote: Why is it people think that GW releasing some new rules or a new book that they're somehow recanting all previously released material? It's not like your 8th edition books will go up in flames the second that the last end times books are released, so why not just keep playing?
yes, i completely understand, but i want to see other peoples opinions.
...as we do every time there is a pending edition/book change. Why throw money at something when major changes are in the pipeline? Who knows what the future may hold. I'm finishing painting models for a few tournaments I have coming up, but mostly I am in wait-and-see mode.
That said I really, *really* doubt the changes are going to be anywhere near as sweeping as people are suggesting. There will be large changes to business model, but I hazard that the rule system will remain largely the same. I think End Times is a harbinger of what is to come, and we're going to see stuff released in smaller chunks via battlescrolls, fluff books, and sub-faction books meant to be incorporated into an "allied force" rather than a truly standalone faction.
blood ravens addiction wrote: there are still plenty skaven, lizardmen, empire and elves and more still out there fighting.
No there isn't. They LITERALLY destroyed the world. All that is left is a "spark".
As for what we do now, we keep playing 8th and wait to see what 9th does. If it sucks people will continue t play 8th for a time until that slowly dies off.
actually, yes i did over-exxagerate slightly, but there are actually a few million soldiers for empire and other human factions, then a few thousand for each other race. Fair enough it may not be anywhere near as much as it used to be, it may only be a spark, but it's not the complete end of the world and there is a small fighting chance of survival still.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ok well, errrm.... i feel like an idiot now.... this is a few hours later and ive discovered a few new things. firstly i didnt quite realise what happens at the end of end times. at the end the planet is nothing left but ONE MAN floating around some swirly abyss.( probably Sigmar or chuck norris ) and the entirety of everyone including chaos are dead. see i thought that the planet was ravaged a bit, didnt know it would explode into a big fat ball of light or whatever. you see? this is what happens when too many people follow chaos.....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 20:41:55
No, actually this is what happens when (Warning MAJOR end times spoiler for who is ultimately responsible for the end of the world)
Spoiler:
Mannfred is a whiny little emo & would rather destroy all of existence than not rule the world. Big meany Nagash usurped his rule hurmph. *pout*.
Seriously he literally could have saved the world. He KNOWS he could have stopped the end, but he chose to ensure it happened anyway. The ending hurt my soul & reeked of "If I can't be the leader I'm gonna take my ball & go home". It was seriously such a let down I had to reread it because I thought it was a joke.
Nonbiased what actually happnes:
2 Incarnates dead, need at least 7 to close the vortex. Teclis holds wind of fire & beasts but cannot maintain it. Teclis wishes there was just 1 more wizard to ease the burden and they can do it. Mannfred thinks "I could help them, or I could just stab Gelt in the back and end the world. Hmmmm, I would be subservient to Nagash still...I know it's the chaos gods telling me to do it... I know it will destroy me to... Feth it, let's stab Gelt & make sure EVERYTHING ends.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/04/18 22:59:05
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No, actually this is what happens when (Warning MAJOR end times spoiler for who is ultimately responsible for the end of the world)
Spoiler:
Mannfred is a whiny little emo & would rather destroy all of existence than not rule the world. Big meany Nagash usurped his rule hurmph. *pout*.
Seriously he literally could have saved the world. He KNOWS he could have stopped the end, but he chose to ensure it happened anyway. The ending hurt my soul & reeked of "If I can't be the leader I'm gonna take my ball & go home". It was seriously such a let down I had to reread it because I thought it was a joke.
Nonbiased what actually happnes:
2 Incarnates dead, need at least 7 to close the vortex. Teclis holds wind of fire & beasts but cannot maintain it. Teclis wishes there was just 1 more wizard to ease the burden and they can do it. Mannfred thinks "I could help them, or I could just stab Gelt in the back and end the world. Hmmmm, I would be subservient to Nagash still...I know it's the chaos gods telling me to do it... I know it will destroy me to... Feth it, let's stab Gelt & make sure EVERYTHING ends.
What's funny is that while i can certainly see that reaction, I got a "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" sort of vibe from it... that Mannfred's nihilism ultimately was his defining characteristic, and that given the choice between oblivion and a world where any hope of him being the master of even his own little fiefdom was extinguished, he'd choose oblivion, was very characteristic.
*shrug* I dunno, i liked most of the end times, but Archaon in particular had peaks and valleys for me. The ending was more of a peak than a valley for me.
Chaos has always been that self-centred, almost narcissistic, desire to end the world rather than conform to its rules. I mean, why else would you strive for nihilism, other than an inward-looking obsession with your own desires? So in that vein, having Manfred choose the end rather than abrogate himself to another makes perfect sense; better to be the one who ended the world, than to be forgotten as one of many who saved it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 00:26:22
I get why Mannfred did it. I just don't particularly like it. I guess I'm more of a Vlad guy. "Serve now and find a way out later" or "Suffer well". Also please spoiler your posts for any one who doesn't wish it spoiled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/19 02:12:12
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well, i talked to some people about it, and they said that for 10th ed it could undo 9th ed by basically either making so that it`s actually a dream that everyone was sucked into or that chaos restarted time and gave the races another chance. theres also the chance that all of the strongest survivors undo it at the end or the last human - probably sigmar or karl franz - save the world at last second. and anyway, it says that everyone saw the end times differently so technically it could still be happening now so we might still have a chance. thats only some of the possibilities. gw could do anything as 9th isnt the last edition. theyre not ending time theyre changing it and making it harder.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: I get why Mannfred did it. I just don't particularly like it. I guess I'm more of a Vlad guy. "Serve now and find a way out later" or "Suffer well". Also please spoiler your posts for any one who doesn't wish it spoiled.
With you here on this. I agree that I wish Vlad had taken Mannfred's place, because i think he would have contributed and the world not been destroyed (assuming for a moment that there was any way out of the destruction that the author's clearly intended, and suspending our disbelief that we're anything but captive audience for the spectacle).
Assuming the narrative changes if we change the players, I think Vlad would definitely have done things differently.
I am halfway expecting /tg/ to make a short story where the Chaos gods revel in their victory, only to notice their realms slowly starting to go dark all of a sudden as daemon after daemon is slaughtered by some unstoppable force.
Then suddenly each god is attacked and perishes in turn as something tears through the realm of chaos, finally coming for Tzeentch who gapes in horror as he realizes that Settra survived the rift and is making good on his promise to kill the Gods for daring to offer him servitude for a kingdom.
And when Settra tears out Tzeentch's heart, Settra will look down and say "I told you four like I told everyone else. SETTRA! DOES! NOT! SERVE! SETTRA!!! RUUUULES!!!!"
Shas'O Dorian wrote: I get why Mannfred did it. I just don't particularly like it. I guess I'm more of a Vlad guy. "Serve now and find a way out later" or "Suffer well". Also please spoiler your posts for any one who doesn't wish it spoiled.
With you here on this. I agree that I wish Vlad had taken Mannfred's place, because i think he would have contributed and the world not been destroyed (assuming for a moment that there was any way out of the destruction that the author's clearly intended, and suspending our disbelief that we're anything but captive audience for the spectacle).
Assuming the narrative changes if we change the players, I think Vlad would definitely have done things differently.
Yeah, if Nagash left Mannfred behind and let Vlad, Dietrich, or Arkhan come with him the world would probably be saved.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/24 09:27:02
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
I really don't get people here. First they complain GW is lazy and never ever shall advance the story, then GW finally does advance the story, and people complain even more.
Why would anyone claim WHFB is a dead game now? Just because we know how the story ends, does not mean we can't just continue playing at any point in the WHFB timeline.
GW is clearly not dropping support for WHFB either, so let us now all get excited over the Warhammer Total War trailer:
If GW is killing the universe off, than why are they having a game like this made?
Everyone remain calm and continue spending as much as you can on fantasy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iron_Captain wrote: I really don't get people here. First they complain GW is lazy and never ever shall advance the story, then GW finally does advance the story, and people complain even more.
People wanted the story advanced into: gak is happening, things just got real. Instead they got: gak happened, the game is over.
Iron_Captain wrote: Why would anyone claim WHFB is a dead game now? Just because we know how the story ends, does not mean we can't just continue playing at any point in the WHFB timeline.
Because once the product is no longer for sale, it is considered dead. Yes, it hasn't happened yet, but almost certainly will. Having a replacement product for sale afterwards isn't the same as having the original product for sale.
Iron_Captain wrote: GW is clearly not dropping support for WHFB either, so let us now all get excited over the Warhammer Total War trailer:
If GW is killing the universe off, than why are they having a game like this made?
The video game industry exists separately to the ttmg industry. Even if fantasy is outright deleted tomorrow as far as ttm games go, video games will still continue to sell. Also, i suspect the video game will have been in development for longer than the end times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/25 00:35:31
We wanted it advanced. What we got was "World go down the hole...."
Advanced =/= ended.
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The biggest mistake GW made was not ending the world as the fans know it.
... it was doing that in March, and then waiting until what looks like July to move onto / get the real story on what happened.
I think if they'd released 9th in April or May, the damage they ended up doing would be less. I think waiting 1/3 of a year to officially mollify your game's customer base will turn out to be an epically bad idea. Just me.
I'm eagerly awaiting 9th, but i know lots of people that are "done" (in my area Warmachine didn't need any help, but it just got a few new players...), and i've been looking at Wrath of Kings, and even looking at my 40k a little bit more.
I'm going to disagree and say their biggest mistake is not being more open with their customers.
PP is VERY open with what's coming down the pipe, wyrd has PUBLIC BETA so that their customers can get an idea what to expect.
GW sits on their hands and mums the word neither confirming nor denying any rumours. This puts a lot of people on edge refusing to buy things & focusing on other games. Hell I went from buying & playing primarily fantasy, to not buying but still playing primarily fantasy to now primarily playing WM/H. The uncertainty first sapped my will to buy, then my will to paint and now my will to play. If GW would give us SOMETHING to go on even a "The rumours about X army being removed are false" I'd be much happier.
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Iron_Captain wrote: I really don't get people here. First they complain GW is lazy and never ever shall advance the story, then GW finally does advance the story, and people complain even more.
People wanted the story advanced into: gak is happening, things just got real. Instead they got: gak happened, the game is over.
Shas'O Dorian wrote:We wanted it advanced. What we got was "World go down the hole...."
Advanced =/= ended.
The story was already at that point, it was stuck at 1 minute to midnight. It was clear that any advancement would have had to lead to major advancement. The Empire had to die this time, you can't do something like the Storm of Chaos twice. The story was advanced, and instead of being held back by a desperate last stand for the zillionth time, Chaos won this time for once. The last time they tried to advance the story without shaking up too much was with Storm of Chaos, which also led to many complaints because people felt it was kinda meaningless because the story was not significantly advanced in any way. They had to break the status quo this time. People are just never satisfied. However they would have advanced the story, people would have complained.
Torga_DW wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote: Why would anyone claim WHFB is a dead game now? Just because we know how the story ends, does not mean we can't just continue playing at any point in the WHFB timeline.
Because once the product is no longer for sale, it is considered dead. Yes, it hasn't happened yet, but almost certainly will.
Having a replacement product for sale afterwards isn't the same as having the original product for sale.
The products are still for sale and there is nothing indicating that it will change in the near future. GW might be going to change a thing or two or add something new, but I think it highly unlikely they will suddenly discard the entire product line for one of their core games. I like to believe GW is led by businessmen who know what they are doing (even if they care more for profits than for gamers), not by complete retards.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: I'm going to disagree and say their biggest mistake is not being more open with their customers.
PP is VERY open with what's coming down the pipe, wyrd has PUBLIC BETA so that their customers can get an idea what to expect.
GW sits on their hands and mums the word neither confirming nor denying any rumours. This puts a lot of people on edge refusing to buy things & focusing on other games. Hell I went from buying & playing primarily fantasy, to not buying but still playing primarily fantasy to now primarily playing WM/H. The uncertainty first sapped my will to buy, then my will to paint and now my will to play. If GW would give us SOMETHING to go on even a "The rumours about X army being removed are false" I'd be much happier.
Agreed. But GW is stupid in that regard.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/25 20:31:17
Blood Ravens, 1700pts
Astra Militarum 2250pts
Khorne 750pts
Space Wolves 1550pts
Orks 500pts
& would rather destroy all of existence than not rule the world. Big meany Nagash usurped his rule hurmph. *pout*.
