Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As the thread title, I'm trying to bring back the worth of power armor. Back when tacs could at least foot slog The board and make it to the other side.

As well as boost the terminator to playable levels.

My ideas-

Give power armor+ terminator armor rerolls.
Ap2/3 still ruins their day, but they are much better at weathering the ridiculous amount of shots coming their way in today's meta.

Or. If your worried that's to strong. Have any ID weapon (Str double T), not allow for the rerolls.

This would get rid of half the issue with terminators. (Well, a third more like)

Then give tacticals the old combat tactics of auto fail leadership in CC. (Only the tacticals)

Go back to armour save modifications. For example, Lascannons inflict a -9 penalty to your armour save (so a Tac Marine with a 3+ would need a 9+ on a D6). Then give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

 Happyjew wrote:
Then give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

My only issue with this one even though I loved it back second
>Make 25 saves

 Happyjew wrote:
Go back to armour save modifications. For example, Lascannons inflict a -9 penalty to your armour save (so a Tac Marine with a 3+ would need a 9+ on a D6). Then give Terminators back their 3+ save on 2D6.

Am i missing something or is the 9+ on a d6 only theoretical? Cause there are only 6 sides on a d6?

 raiden wrote:
As the thread title, I'm trying to bring back the worth of power armor. Back when tacs could at least foot slog The board and make it to the other side.

As well as boost the terminator to playable levels.

My ideas-

Give power armor+ terminator armor rerolls.
Ap2/3 still ruins their day, but they are much better at weathering the ridiculous amount of shots coming their way in today's meta.

Or. If your worried that's to strong. Have any ID weapon (Str double T), not allow for the rerolls.

This would get rid of half the issue with terminators. (Well, a third more like)

Then give tacticals the old combat tactics of auto fail leadership in CC. (Only the tacticals)

I think the ship has sailed on this. Meqs are just target practice for Xeno firepower and are only remotely viable when stuffed into all-in alpha strike drop pods.

Even vs mass firepower 3+ rerollable would increase their survivability by almost 50%

 raiden wrote:
Even vs mass firepower 3+ rerollable would increase their survivability by almost 50%

So they'd be slightly better speed bumps to the scat bikes. Yay for prolonging the misery. Marines lack firepower and offensive efficacy, not durability.

here's an idea. give em a special rule that allows them their armor save even when the AP of a weapon exceeds their armor. (you can then remove the invul save) I suppose you could do this just by giving them a 2+ invul save, but this could lead to issues with powers allowing re-rolls of such things.

suddenly terminator armor is once more that bad ass armor that's capable of taking the heaviest weapons on the field and not blinking an eye

BrianDavion wrote:
here's an idea. give em a special rule that allows them their armor save even when the AP of a weapon exceeds their armor. (you can then remove the invul save) I suppose you could do this just by giving them a 2+ invul save, but this could lead to issues with powers allowing re-rolls of such things.

suddenly terminator armor is once more that bad ass armor that's capable of taking the heaviest weapons on the field and not blinking an eye

But still can't affect the game. Because of no offense and being slow.

decrease the price of plasmagun so i can use chosen with 5 plasmagun and watch them die to eldar scatter lasers with lock on blasting shields 60" away...it could be worse like Str D weapons.

Sure, increase the survivability of armor...

at the cost of every single "ignores cover" weapon. Also...ATSKNF gets seriously nerfed.

Who do you mean should bring anything back? Do you mean bring it back to you? Are you lobbying people on the forum to use these as their own house rules? Do you just want to talk about it hypothetically, for fun?

I it comes to convincing anyone else to be interested in talking about it, to say nothing of using it, I'd like to see something interesting.

I'd like to see something in the OP like cognis, or bonus shots to some weapons, or a second round of shooting. Ignores the bs penalty for movement? Oh, there is none, except for the one heavy per squad. Ignores movement penalties for heavy equipment? Right, none of those either.

 raiden wrote:
As the thread title, I'm trying to bring back the worth of power armor. Back when tacs could at least foot slog The board and make it to the other side.

As well as boost the terminator to playable levels.

My ideas-

I admire and endorse your goals, but sadly, I think that the fix won't lie with the power armor. I think the problem is with the shooting weapons ranged against it and their points cost.


First, I think that the whole AP system needs re-examining. Not mechanically, but in the assignment of AP. Should power armor really provide no protection against plasma? Should it be useless against a lucky shuriken hit? I'm not debating those particular instances, but I think there's way too much stuff that penetrates AP2 and AP3 armor for verisimilitude with the background.


Second, if you have weapons which really should be blowing through Power or Terminator armor, are they actually at the correct level of availability? If plasma guns are rare artifacts of technology, should they be available to every IG squad? If grav guns are ineffable constructs of a bygone age, should tac squads be taking them left and right? The actual availability of weapons which penetrate the best armor in the game should be relatively scarce, because otherwise, it isn't the best armor in the game. If the background says that something should be rare, then perhaps it should be impossible to take large quantities of it in smaller games.

Finally, tied to availability, is points cost. If you have weapons which genuinely should be penetrating power and terminator armor, and they should genuinely be available to the troops, then they really, really need to have an appropriate points cost. If it wasn't trivially cheap to take good AP weapons like plasma and grav, then good armor would remain viable. When you can take a weapon that can penetrate AP 2, and can probably be used to do so for 4-5 turns of the game, and it costs less than a single AP 2 model, then the costs are out of whack. This is where I think a LOT of the problems arise. It would be fine if every army had weapons which made a mockery of Power and Terminator armor, if those weapons were expensive enough to make it a real choice between Good AP and more models. It would mean that a relatively small army of elite weaponry could threaten Space Marines, or a relatively large army of standard weaponry (this seems to actually be the way that it works with orks). Instead, you have relatively cheap, easily accessible 'elite weapons' in almost every army of normal size, which makes the 'elite armored infantry' function like overcosted basic infantry.

I totally agree that your problem is real, but I don't think, sadly, that there is going to be a simple, easy fix for it.

More relevant to the current atrocity coming down the pike, armor that only functions 66% of the time is not enough mitigation to stay on the board against mass scatter laser.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Who do you mean should bring anything back? Do you mean bring it back to you? Are you lobbying people on the forum to use these as their own house rules? Do you just want to talk about it hypothetically, for fun?

I it comes to convincing anyone else to be interested in talking about it, to say nothing of using it, I'd like to see something interesting.

I'd like to see something in the OP like cognis, or bonus shots to some weapons, or a second round of shooting. Ignores the bs penalty for movement? Oh, there is none, except for the one heavy per squad. Ignores movement penalties for heavy equipment? Right, none of those either.

A bit of all three

Well the two things I have seen suggested for Power Armor that would not break Marines are:
>Make Bolters Volley 2/3
>Make Space Marine Power Armor Relentless.

The Make Storm Bolters Twin-Linked.

Cool if Termie armour gets boosted can we buff Mega armour to current Termie armour? I'd love for my MANZ to do overwatch and sweeping advances.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Cool if Termie armour gets boosted can we buff Mega armour to current Termie armour? I'd love for my MANZ to do overwatch and sweeping advances.

How about you get what we get, and our terminators get 2w a piece. I laugh when people cry about MANZ. I'd take a unit of MANZ over my terminators -ANY- day of the week.

That bieng said and on a serious note. I don't see why you couldn't get to fire overwatch and run if we buffed terminator armor.

No I do think it would be cool to bump up some termie survivability as much as I am wanting MANz utility increased. I feel your pain when I see a termie dropped by grots and it's frustrating that for all their melee power the MANZ can't sweep advances (nvm that there's no hvy weapon options on their list to take advantage of the big slow and purposeful but that's another argument not to do with the armour but the lists)

GW's had too many years of unbalancing their own game, I'm afraid. Too many gross inconsistencies have been ignored or appeased over time so what you have now is pretty much a mess. When they'd make something too strong, people accepted making other things too strong as well as a counter instead of simply curtailing the original culprit. That's why the game is littered with stupid things like grav guns and currently scatter lasers out the wazoo.

Unfortunately you will need to find your own solution with your playing group because I guarantee GW will never fix things for you. That has never been and probably will never be their goal.

Well, it was looking good this edition, Most of the codexes were in line with fair power, good external balance, hell, the necrons are strong, but even my DA can face off against them and win. But then. The ELDAR happened :(

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"- never been more true.

Terminators could have some form of FNP (6+ or 5+). Adjust points as needed if too much. Would make Str8+ and ID the same while helping keep smaller arms from killing them as easily. 2 wounds would be a bit too much.

The sad part is you could give terminators 2W and they still wouldn't be good.