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For thoose of you who don't know the new rules any model in the unit can swap out their twin-linked Shuriken Catapult for a Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser for ten points, other than that they are the same (Rules and Points). The question is which is better the Shuriken Cannon or the Scatter Lasers?
Let's look:
Shuriken Cannon:
Has a higher ap, Bladestorm allowing it to harm anything with ap2 on a 6 to wound. However it also has one less shot and a shorter range (Which isn't a fairly big deal on Jetbikes).
Scatter Lasers:
Have a lower ap and don't have Bladestorm. However they also have a longer range and an additional shot.
What are your thoughts on the subject?

Scatter Lasers.
The extra range is a huge buff on a 12" move and JSJ platform.
The extra strength also allows it to wound most infantry on 2s, cause instant death to T3 and, with sheer number of shots, can threaten up to AV12. You don't need AP2 if you can just force enough saves and having more shots at a higher strength allows you to do that.

An effective range of 48" (12" + 36" range gun), with no loss of accuracy, is massive for a troops choice. Then add in the assault move which will average 7" and it can fall back out of return fire range of any 36" range gun which isn't on an equally mobile platfrom. So this leads to only guns with ranges of 48" being able to reliably respond to them. And the less they get shot, the less casualties they take and the less firepower they lose per turn.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Scatter Lasers.
The extra range is a huge buff on a 12" move and JSJ platform.
The extra strength also allows it to wound most infantry on 2s, cause instant death to T3 and, with sheer number of shots, can threaten up to AV12. You don't need AP2 if you can just force enough saves and having more shots at a higher strength allows you to do that.

An effective range of 48" (12" + 36" range gun), with no loss of accuracy, is massive for a troops choice. Then add in the assault move which will average 7" and it can fall back out of return fire range of any 36" range gun which isn't on an equally mobile platfrom. So this leads to only guns with ranges of 48" being able to reliably respond to them. And the less they get shot, the less casualties they take and the less firepower they lose per turn.

The scatter laser is str 6 so is the Shuriken cannon...

 Farseer Will wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Scatter Lasers.
The extra range is a huge buff on a 12" move and JSJ platform.
The extra strength also allows it to wound most infantry on 2s, cause instant death to T3 and, with sheer number of shots, can threaten up to AV12. You don't need AP2 if you can just force enough saves and having more shots at a higher strength allows you to do that.

An effective range of 48" (12" + 36" range gun), with no loss of accuracy, is massive for a troops choice. Then add in the assault move which will average 7" and it can fall back out of return fire range of any 36" range gun which isn't on an equally mobile platfrom. So this leads to only guns with ranges of 48" being able to reliably respond to them. And the less they get shot, the less casualties they take and the less firepower they lose per turn.

The scatter laser is str 6 so is the Shuriken cannon...

Have both.

One unit with scatter lasers and the other with shuriken cannon. (ie, 2 units with scatters and 1 unit with the cannon). Send the cannons to high armour/2+ units to fish for AP2. The scatter lasers are there to dakka the other units from a distance.

Agree. I am looking at 2x5 Jetbikes with Scatterlasers and 2x3 Jetbikes with Cannons. In the previous codex, my key late game objective grabbers were Jetbikes and the occasional Wage Serpent. Wave Serpents will be less in number as their offensive output diminished. I don't want to put too much into bikes and make them an even higher target priority as I really need them late game.

I do want some Cannons as I do find it necessary to utilize Bladestorm; not game breaking but a great game mechanism in the right circumstances. I say this mainly as I don't tailor my lists,I make a list and then go get in some games.

Rumor has it that their is a formation that gives the jet bikes shred with shuriken weapons.
That would be the only reason I'd take shurikens.
With tiwn-linked, blade storm and shred, a stock jetbike with catapults does the same number of wounds to 2+ armor as the cannon does.
So, I think I'd stick with scatter lasers or a big block with catapults.

Rumor also has dire avengers over-watching at BS2, which is kind of cool. Could use avengers to screen jet bikes, for a pretty good 1 - 2 punch.

It would be the range between the cannon and catapult I have concerns with. I do agrees big block of stock Catapults in the bike formation has promise. Essentially a free Doom for them once per game.

Scatter lasers all the way.

What would your list look like at @ 1850? I may be missing something where I won't need any AP2 support as it exists elsewhere.

 Sarigar wrote:
What would your list look like at @ 1850? I may be missing something where I won't need any AP2 support as it exists elsewhere.

Depends on bound or unbound.
Poly Ranger made a list consisting of Autarch on jetbike, lots of Jetbikes, and three IKs.

Assuming 1850, that is about 20 bikes.

On the fense with over 1000 points tied up in 3 models, especially when potentially facing other Eldar, but can be fairly interesting depending on what IK used.

Why would you take It's over WK's?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why would you take It's over WK's?

Wraithknights aren't troop choices

on the jetbikes I say use magnets is the best tactic that way you can tone down your list if your opponent complains, or bring full cheese if you want to harvest tears.

S cannons look good in the formation though, shred sounds awesome on a turn

I read Poly Rangers list. The problem is not everyone agrees that the army is broken. The tourney army I am currently constructing matches up well against what he listed. I received no response as it is likely folks don't even know my army formations exist? And that is one of the biggest reasons people lose games- lack of understanding an opponent's army.

Scatter Lasers have the extra range as very good bonus. But it isn't the best weapon for everything.

Scatter Lasers are better against:
T3 6+ (Kroot)
T4 6+ (Boyz)
T5 6+ (Grotesques)**
T3 4+ (Scions)*
T4 4+ (Necron Warriors)*
T5 4+ (Deffcopta)*
T5 3+ (Plague Marine)**
Any invulnerable save/cover save***
AV 10-12

They're the same against:
FMCs 4+*
T6 4+ (Hive Guard)*

*: Shuriken Cannons are better if with Shred (formation bonus for bikes)
**: Shuriken Cannons are equal if with Shred
***: T5 2/3++ (or same save in cover) have both weapons in equal standards, if Shuriken Cannon with Shred. T6+ 2/3++ (or cover) have Shuriken Cannon in better standards if with Shred

Shuriken Cannons are better against:
T3 5+ (Infantry Platoon)
T4 5+ (Reavers)
T5 5+ (Flak armour Ogryn Brutes)
T3 3+ (Power Armor Acolyte)
MEQ
(F)MCs
T7 3+ (Talos)
T8 3+ (Wraithlords/knights)
T3 2+ (Terminator Inquisitor)
TEQ
T5 2+ (Bike Captain with Artificer Armor)
T6 2+ (Riptide)
AV13+

In a nutshell: Marines, Terminators (no SS), 5+ save units, AV13+ and (F)MCs require Shuriken Cannons; everything else, Scatter Lasers. If you use the formation bonus, only true hordes (T3-4 6+), invulnerable/cover users (exceptions noted above) and AV 10-12 would require Scatter Lasers.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Scatter Lasers have the extra range as very good bonus. But it isn't the best weapon for everything.

Scatter Lasers are better against:
T3 6+ (Kroot)
T4 6+ (Boyz)
T5 6+ (Grotesques)**
T3 4+ (Scions)*
T4 4+ (Necron Warriors)*
T5 4+ (Deffcopta)*
T5 3+ (Plague Marine)**
Any invulnerable save/cover save***
AV 10-12

They're the same against:
FMCs 4+*
T6 4+ (Hive Guard)*

*: Shuriken Cannons are better if with Shred (formation bonus for bikes)
**: Shuriken Cannons are equal if with Shred
***: T5 2/3++ (or same save in cover) have both weapons in equal standards, if Shuriken Cannon with Shred. T6+ 2/3++ (or cover) have Shuriken Cannon in better standards if with Shred

Shuriken Cannons are better against:
T3 5+ (Infantry Platoon)
T4 5+ (Reavers)
T5 5+ (Flak armour Ogryn Brutes)
T3 3+ (Power Armor Acolyte)
MEQ
(F)MCs
T7 3+ (Talos)
T8 3+ (Wraithlords/knights)
T3 2+ (Terminator Inquisitor)
TEQ
T5 2+ (Bike Captain with Artificer Armor)
T6 2+ (Riptide)
AV13+

In a nutshell: Marines, Terminators (no SS), 5+ save units, AV13+ and (F)MCs require Shuriken Cannons; everything else, Scatter Lasers. If you use the formation bonus, only true hordes (T3-4 6+), invulnerable/cover users (exceptions noted above) and AV 10-12 would require Scatter Lasers.

How can Shuriken Cannons harm av 13?

 Farseer Will wrote:
How can Shuriken Cannons harm av 13?

They can if Bladestorm is mistook for Rending. Lel.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Farseer Will wrote:
How can Shuriken Cannons harm av 13?

They can if Bladestorm is mistook for Rending. Lel.

Yep LOL

I think it's going to be Scatter Lasers or nothing for me. VoF is my friend. If stock, then depending on the value of the 'tax' to run the Windrider formation, I'll take that once per game Shred bonus.

I think Guardians (or Dire Avengers) in Wave Serpents will still be my main source of Bladestorm.

Stock War Walkers (with Shuriken Cannons) in the formation that gives preferred enemy may be a 'better' way to get Shuriken Cannons on the field.

Doesn't the formation only give shred for one turn?

So that should also be included in those numbers in some way.

Also the shorter range on the shuriken cannons means you're more likely to be in return fire range of more of the enemy shooting. 24" + 7" thrust puts you at 31", within range of 36" guns such as Tau Missile Pods and markerlights which will cause some serious hurt and be capable of inflicting instant death upon characters.

36"+7" gets you to 43", 1" outside Tau infantry range with anything but Heavy Rail Rifles. So no markerlights, which means if a Riptide drops a pie plate on you they won't be getting ignores cover.

Oh yes, sorry about the Bladestorm thing. Ok, Av13+ is a no-go land for both weapons.

Still, against those targets I've listed, Shuriken Cannon is superior to Scatter Laser - VoF is already counted in. But range is an important factor... if anything survives after the volley of Shuriken cannons

I don't know for how long the Shred remains, though. If it's just for 1 round, then it isn't that interesting.

 Farseer Will wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why would you take It's over WK's?

Wraithknights aren't troop choices

So?

Warhost:
Windrider Host(3x Windrider Squadrons, a Vyper Squadron, Warlock Conclave, and Farseer). This unlocks 0-3 "Regents of the Warhost"
Autarch on jetbike("Heroes of the Craftworld")
Fill the rest with Wraithknights.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Farseer Will wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why would you take It's over WK's?

Wraithknights aren't troop choices

So?

Warhost:
Windrider Host(3x Windrider Squadrons, a Vyper Squadron, Warlock Conclave, and Farseer). This unlocks 0-3 "Regents of the Warhost"
Autarch on jetbike("Heroes of the Craftworld")
Fill the rest with Wraithknights.

Believe it or not everybody has a spare £300 to Buy tons of Wraithknights.

I don't think there is much in it re: shuiken canon or scatter.. my gut was probably go shuriken canon because of the chance on AP2.. but then they'd probably be in cover so AP 2 still means a cover save.. so probably Scatter Laser is better ..hmmm so SL then.. but for the recird I think that mathshammer is very much a bubble logic.. It isn't true if you have priority target issues (i.e. everything in ur army spams shots and ur buying "luck") or targets in cover..

What I would say is they are a 55% tax and you probably want normal bikers to soak it up.. take a 105 ish pt squad.. which would maybe be

3 x jetbikes (51)
2× jetbikes with SL (54)

Or

4x jetbikes with SL (108)

As you can see either is quite expensive and frail and they vanilla bikers version doesn't stack up *that* well vs 10 defender guardians with SL (same cost) unless you want them for objective denial in which case 3 vanillas is probably right.

So.

My gut is that you take 4 with Scatter Lasers and hide them and then use them for frapping down units you already hit once

Or

You take the unit of 3 for getting objectives

 Farseer Will wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Farseer Will wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Why would you take It's over WK's?

Wraithknights aren't troop choices

So?

Warhost:
Windrider Host(3x Windrider Squadrons, a Vyper Squadron, Warlock Conclave, and Farseer). This unlocks 0-3 "Regents of the Warhost"
Autarch on jetbike("Heroes of the Craftworld")
Fill the rest with Wraithknights.

Believe it or not everybody has a spare £300 to Buy tons of Wraithknights.

And yet everyone has the spare money to buy an Adamantine Lance worth of IK?

"Fill the rest with Wraithknights" means reach whatever point value you want from the WKs. Not field 12 Wraithknights.

Believe it or not everybody has a spare £300 to Buy tons of Wraithknights.

They are offically £70. Forget they don't depreciate in value. forget you can see that money again if you need to.

you see there are loads of outlets giving 20% off which means they are £56 each but the true discount gw *actually* let people in shops get them for is 35% off.. so the store is paying £45.50.. if you really WERE buying 3 then you go in and tell him privately you know he is getting them 35% off so you wanna pay x for 3 and stand there and wait him out. If he says no try the next place. In the uk most towns have 3 or 4 places you can buy

Frontline Gaming is giving 25% off right now for Eldar preorders. Get a new release on the Eldar, and Wraithknights would also be 25% off.

I will almost always go shuriken cannon. Mass shuriken weaponry can slay gods. Mass scatter laser not so much.

Probably the shuricannon is better. Cause it's better than laser against jetbikers, wraiths and wraithknights. On the other hand, scatter lasers can glance a serpent that's holding wraiths in the first place. But is it worth sacraficing the damage output against jetbike's intended targets - jetbikes, wraiths, wraithknights? Not sure. Better use positioning to force serpent wraiths to disembark to do damage or WWP wraiths to drop in when they got to due to passing a 3+ reserve roll, and than flame them to death with your own serpent wraiths and shoot with shredding shuricannons.