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Hey guys, so if you've been looking around Dakka, you've obviously seen the 10 gillion threads about Eldar hate. And that got me thinking, this could very well end up being what pushes the game into 8th Edition sooner than expected. So, I wanted to make kind of a wishlisting thread about what you'd like to see in 8th edition to make the game better overall, and to accommodate our new Eldar Overlords.
My changes would be as follows, in no particular order:
Lords of War are restricted to 1 per army, or 1 per 1000 points. Something along those lines. Seriously, take some of the restriction from Fantasy and implement them.
Destroyer weapons change to the following:
1 - Nothing happens
2-5 - Auto wound/Auto Pen with D3 wounds/hull points
6 - Same as 2-5, but does a D6+1 Wounds/Hull points.
Seriously, adding this into regular games is ridiculous, and most things don't even haveD6+6 wounds/hull points.
Invisibility is not as it currently is.
Maelstrom has a function to let you discard ones you cannot complete (Even though people house rule this anyway, you shouldn't have to do that. The rules should be clear)
Specify that Deep Striking is a move, and therefor Skimmers can use that ruling that literally never comes into play. That, or remove the ruling.
Ordnance on Heavy vehicles does not cause snap-firing of other weapons.
Allow units that Infiltrate to charge on the first turn, as long as they don't go first. This is really inconvenient for units such as Genestealers/Flayed Ones, ext.
Gargantuan Creatures should reduce the number in which they're affected by Poison, not only being wounded on a 6. For example, Poison 2+ becomes 3+, 4+ becomes 5+. Seriously, how else will Dark Eldar deal with their Craftworld overlords? Same thing goes with Sniper weapons.
Non-fast vehicles should be able to move only 6' and shoot at least 2 weapons at full BS. Fast Vehicles have such an advantage it isn't even funny.
Remove the Ally chart.
That's all I can really think of off the top of my head. What do you guys think? Feel free to state what you think 8th Edition should do to the game for the better of everyone, and to tone down Eldar. This is just meant to be constructive wishlisting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 19:34:58
Originally it was for SM bikes. I just don't see how they are any tougher than PA bikes. Works great for other Bikes I can think of too, but Orkz would need a points drop.
If they were thinking cavalry, they got it wrong. Since firepower became relevant, a mount made you less survivable.
- Remove the abomination that is the Unbound system. I'd be happy if they change it so it's "choose whatever you want from one Codex" as this means you could field a 1st Company Marine army for example, but "take whatever you want from whatever army you want all together!" is probably the most awful thing I've ever seen in this game.
- Tighten up the Allies Matrix. Come the Apocalypse should mean they can't be taken, not "take them but keep them apart at deployment".
- Change Destroyer back to how it was in 5th, where it inflicted an automatic ID wound, none of this roll-on-table crap.
- Ordnance does not make vehicles fire Snap Shots.
Valkyrie wrote: - Remove the abomination that is the Unbound system. I'd be happy if they change it so it's "choose whatever you want from one Codex" as this means you could field a 1st Company Marine army for example, but "take whatever you want from whatever army you want all together!" is probably the most awful thing I've ever seen in this game.
- Tighten up the Allies Matrix. Come the Apocalypse should mean they can't be taken, not "take them but keep them apart at deployment".
- Change Destroyer back to how it was in 5th, where it inflicted an automatic ID wound, none of this roll-on-table crap.
- Ordnance does not make vehicles fire Snap Shots.
I agree on pretty much all of that. Except, I'd rather see the Allied Matrix gone, personally. And Unbound, yeah, go away please.
Balance.
Achieved by limitations.
Limited capability coupled with an appropriate point cost.
Remove the number of allies that bring various combinations of rules that can buff a unit and make it again too capable for the points cost.
Various armies have strengths and weaknesses that make their use more challenging.
Allowing too many other codex armies creates combinations of capability too difficult to account for.
Choice to involve other armies is exciting and should be allowed to some degree but should have a cost proportionate to the benefit.
Add unit capability that tries to match "fluff" to enhance player engagement while again maintaining appropriate cost.
The ordinance tanks being able to fire other weapons is a fine example.
Sweeping "intent" is easier than focusing on specific items, it is a systemic problem not a few things to point to.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Remove 2d6 to charge and replace with 6+1d6 charge distance.
STOP REALEASING ARMY CODEX SEAONALY. When the new edition 8th, comes out i expect all armies to ge updated virtually to eliminate power creep. Codex books are 90% fluff page fillers. All the rules can be written for each army into one book at 100 pages. Toss out many of the USSR. Publish this 8th edition book on their website to be regularly edited when confusion, problems, and unbalance occur instead of letting over powered typo exist. It is so much easier to keep track and edit If the rules can be looked up on the net on a certified site.
When 1 model gets introduced for an army, all armies get an equivalent with their variation or counter unit to balance it out. Other armies dont even need a new counter unit, maybe just a new weapon.
Do not tell me this crap that GW is primarily a model making company. That is not an excuse anymore. They have had more than a decade to fix their game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 20:32:52
Easy to-hit mods. (Like a max of +2 or -2 to hit.)
Examples: hard to hit (-1), very hard to hit (-2), easy to hit (+1), very easy to hit (+2).
By default anything flying or that had jink, stealth or light cover is hard to hit. Anything in ruins, has shrouded, or a combination of factors from hard to hit is very hard to hit.
Also by default, non-flying vehicles and MC's are easy to hit (use that cover or smoke!) immobilized vehicles, gargantuans, and super heavies are very easy to hit.
Overwatch is pistols and flamers only. You already got a chance to shoot your guns. It was called your shooting phase. I'm also a fan of just removing it, or making it an activated option to not shoot so that your squad gains interceptor/overwatch during the enemy turn.
Kill random charge range with the fury of 9000 angry gods. Absolute worst rule in the game. The entire match between an army that is holding back and an army that is advancing to melee is riding on a few 2d6 rolls somewhere in turn 2 or 3. Might as well say "gg" as soon as you fail too many, or have the other guy say it when you roll hot on them.
Those are the major things in the game that draw my ire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/22 22:02:50
- Redo all the codex to make them all internally and externally balanced.
- Malefic powers? Away with them!
- Allow any model without a rapid fire or heavy weapon to charge after running.
-Keep charge distance random but make it 4d3 instead of 2d6.
-Return allies and challenges back to what they were in 6th edition with a couple improvements.
-Stop over-engineering the rules. 40k plays most like a skirmish-platoon level game, so have it actually played as one [no superheavys or D weapons, for example]
-Add Hrud in a way that utilises both of the designs that have created for them in the past.
I've not nearly added enough and we're still a fairly long away from bringing the 40k rules up the modern standards set by GW's competitors, but these adjusts are more than enough for a stopgap solution.
I just want some random elements taken away to make player choice more meaningful.
Warlord traits are essentially 'wargear'. They are priced and can be purchased to help players make unique, themed lists.
Psychic Powers are purchasable and priced accordingly. Again, having a 'create a psyker' would be fun AND fluffy. Powers like Invisibility would either need the axe, or be tweaked, or be priced very accordingly.
Remove random charge distances. Make charge distances a flat number for specific units. More melee focused units would have a better charge distance built in. Things like Waaaagh! could increase run/charge distances, etc.
Remove the dice roll for difficult terrain. Make it a -2 to your base move distance.
I like the idea of modifiers to hit over cover save rolls.
I'd overall like an overhaul on Walkers, and perhaps vehicles in general. As much as I love my Kanz and Deffs (And I'm sure many love their Dreadnaughts and other walkers), but they are just too easily shredded these days. Maybe they themselves don't need a tweak, just alter the mass high S firepower avail.
Spoiler:
sing your life wrote: - Redo all the codex to make them all internally and externally balanced.
- Malefic powers? Away with them!
- Allow any model without a rapid fire or heavy weapon to charge after running.
-Keep charge distance random but make it 4d3 instead of 2d6.
-Return allies and challenges back to what they were in 6th edition with a couple improvements.
-Stop over-engineering the rules. 40k plays most like a skirmish-platoon level game, so have it actually played as one [no superheavys or D weapons, for example]
-Add Hrud in a way that utilises both of the designs that have created for them in the past.
I've not nearly added enough and we're still a fairly long away from bringing the 40k rules up the modern standards set by GW's competitors, but these adjusts are more than enough for a stopgap solution.
As to the charge distance, that is effectively the same thing. And why use D3's when D6 is just as good and is easier to read AND I'm throwing less dice to boot? I hate D3 rolls. It's just a pain in the ass.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/22 21:23:35
sing your life wrote: - Redo all the codex to make them all internally and externally balanced.
- Malefic powers? Away with them!
- Allow any model without a rapid fire or heavy weapon to charge after running.
-Keep charge distance random but make it 4d3 instead of 2d6.
-Return allies and challenges back to what they were in 6th edition with a couple improvements.
-Stop over-engineering the rules. 40k plays most like a skirmish-platoon level game, so have it actually played as one [no superheavys or D weapons, for example]
-Add Hrud in a way that utilises both of the designs that have created for them in the past.
I've not nearly added enough and we're still a fairly long away from bringing the 40k rules up the modern standards set by GW's competitors, but these adjusts are more than enough for a stopgap solution.
As to the charge distance, that is effectively the same thing. And why use D3's when D6 is just as good and is easier to read AND I'm throwing less dice to boot? I hate D3 rolls. It's just a pain in the ass.
It's not the same thing. 4d3s can only have a result ranging from 4-12 to inches whilst with 2d6 the lowest result is 2, so they're less of punishment for rolling really badly in a charge.
sing your life wrote: - Redo all the codex to make them all internally and externally balanced.
- Malefic powers? Away with them!
- Allow any model without a rapid fire or heavy weapon to charge after running.
-Keep charge distance random but make it 4d3 instead of 2d6.
-Return allies and challenges back to what they were in 6th edition with a couple improvements.
-Stop over-engineering the rules. 40k plays most like a skirmish-platoon level game, so have it actually played as one [no superheavys or D weapons, for example]
-Add Hrud in a way that utilises both of the designs that have created for them in the past.
I've not nearly added enough and we're still a fairly long away from bringing the 40k rules up the modern standards set by GW's competitors, but these adjusts are more than enough for a stopgap solution.
As to the charge distance, that is effectively the same thing. And why use D3's when D6 is just as good and is easier to read AND I'm throwing less dice to boot? I hate D3 rolls. It's just a pain in the ass.
It's not the same thing. 4d3s can only have a result ranging from 4-12 to inches whilst with 2d6 the lowest result is 2, so they're less of punishment for rolling really badly in a charge.
I guess. But even then, it seems like more hassle. Why not just cut the middle man and just give certain units a set charge distance and be done with it? The game needs less arbitrary dice rolling and more actual player input. Really force people to position proper to keep out of charge range, not cross their fingers and hope they don't roll boxcars.
I agree with most everything Melevolence is saying about removing unneeded randomization, *especially* in regards to character abilities/Psyker powers. It's really jarring to attempt to "Forge A Narrative" when your characters randomly switch powers from battle-to-battle; I know one player who tried to headcanon-justify his Necron Lord's "Random Warlord Trait" as "Multiple personalities were accidentally transferred into him upon his reawakening", but it's jarring for the rest of us.
MagicJuggler wrote: I agree with most everything Melevolence is saying about removing unneeded randomization, *especially* in regards to character abilities/Psyker powers. It's really jarring to attempt to "Forge A Narrative" when your characters randomly switch powers from battle-to-battle; I know one player who tried to headcanon-justify his Necron Lord's "Random Warlord Trait" as "Multiple personalities were accidentally transferred into him upon his reawakening", but it's jarring for the rest of us.
That's hilarious, but kind of sad too :p
Yeah, I have been working hard on hammering out back grounds for both my Warboss and my Big Mek (And soon a Weirdboy), and it would be really nice to have concrete traits for them whenever I field them. I'm more than happy to pay the costs needed to make even a fluff army consistent (even if ineffective). And it would be excellent for more competitive players as well, to help build thematic but synergistic lists as well. Nothing is more infuriating than getting the wrong Warboss/Weirdboy for the job at hand. It's difficult to 'forge that narrative' when your leader never knows what he is doing from game to game.
As much as I love Malestrom missions, I believe they would be better served as 'Draw X objectives at the beginning of the game. These are your objectives to complete in addition to secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord, First Blood, etc). Discard and replace whatever objectives you cannot achieve (Example, kill a flier when your opponent has no fliers, manifest a Psychic power when you have no Psykers, etc).'
There's just so much "What am I doing again?" in this game that even a casual like myself has a hard time with it sometimes. :(
I think the most important thing to define before embarking on ANY rules changes.
Is to decide what the game play of 40k should be,And then write rules specifically for it.
Writing rules to inspire collectors to buy more minatures,and trying to combat massive imbalance with lots of random rolls to replace good game design fun with 'randomness is fun for narrative games honest '.
Has practically killed any quality game play left in 40k.
Yes players CAN agree to fix the rules in the same way and have fun.
But if you are paying the prices GW want to charge for rules , you really should not have to fix anything!
So what do you folks think 40k should be?
Detailed Epic rules to up scale them for 28mm battles instead of 10mm battles.Or WHFB in space V 3.9?
krodarklorr wrote: Gargantuan Creatures should reduce the number in which they're affected by Poison, not only being wounded on a 6. For example, Poison 2+ becomes 3+, 4+ becomes 5+. Seriously, how else will Dark Eldar deal with their Craftworld overlords?
krodarklorr wrote: Gargantuan Creatures should reduce the number in which they're affected by Poison, not only being wounded on a 6. For example, Poison 2+ becomes 3+, 4+ becomes 5+. Seriously, how else will Dark Eldar deal with their Craftworld overlords?
lustigjh wrote: Units can only snap shoot if they came in from reserves this turn
Eeeeehhhh, I disagree. That would gimp a lot of units (Like Deathmarks)
Then buff assault so reserves aren't lopsided towards shooting armies. Maybe death marks and similar units can get some special exception or do what assault armies do now and spend an extra turn twiddling their thumbs inside their nightscythe
krodarklorr wrote: Gargantuan Creatures should reduce the number in which they're affected by Poison, not only being wounded on a 6. For example, Poison 2+ becomes 3+, 4+ becomes 5+. Seriously, how else will Dark Eldar deal with their Craftworld overlords?
With fleshbane
What of Dark Eldar has Flashbane?
One of the jetfighter missiles at least
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 17:53:57
Remove the special rules that are just combos of other special rules (like Zealot just being fearless and mastercrafted)
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
I'd like to see combining Battle Brother Codexes into a single volume, so they all update together. Ideally the larger ones (like the Forces of the Imperium Codex) would be released like the 7th Edition rules, with one volume being the rules, one being the Fluff, and a third being the pictures, to reduce what players have to carry around. Each book would have tabs (like those in Dictionaries) to differentiate between each faction's section. All of the Fortifications would be listed in the Core Rules, not be a separate volume as if it were its own Codex.
Thus, all of the Codexes whose characters can join units of other factions would have their rules released simultaniously, so they would be made with allies in mind, so there shouldn't be the absolutely broken combinations that we currently get, as Codexes try to steer the game in a new direction but still have to work with older Codexes. If Internal balance is achieved, then external balance becomes a possibility.
Also, I would much rather carry around "The Rules" and a similarly sized volume of "Codex: Armies of the Imperium" than have to have a bag full of smaller Codexes, loaded with fluff and pictures that I will not be referencing at the Game Store. I don't have a Tablet or I-Pad. I can't afford one. The only way I'd get one would be if I sold my Grey Knights for it. That is why making all of the codexes available electronically doesn't justify making the books too tedious to transport by splitting them into smaller and smaller Codexes (Daemon-hunters is now, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Assassins, Tempestus). It's getting ridiculous.
But truly, the biggest change that needs to happen is for all of the units in each Codex to be equally viable for their point costs so the game has better variety, instead of; "Oh He's playing 1,000pts of Grey Knights, so I know he'll have two Dreadknights, a Librarian, Terminators, and probably a couple squads of Interceptors. He's going to alpha-strike or shunt-punch (same effect), and I know how to counter that, and I don't even need to see his list!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/23 18:34:41
Remove all randomness. No more random charts, damage tables, movement distance, stats, powers, abilities, throw away the scatter dice. Bring back area terrain/line of sight blocking like 4th. Cover = hit modifiers. Vehicles need an armour save. Simplify wound allocation (determine how many wounds and then remove the models, owners choice). Assaulting from stationary vehicles and outflanking. Get rid of overwatch and challenges. Make psychic powers purchasable and = a weapon or wargear or buff, no more psychic phase/playing yahtzee every turn. Limits on "big stuff" based on points value of armies.
Standing with my enemies, hung on my horns. With haste and reverie, killing with charm. I play, I'm sick and tame, drawing the hordes. I wait, and show the lame, the meaning of harm. The skulls beneath my feet, like feathers in sand. I graze among the graves, a feeling of peace.
Bill1138 wrote: But truly, the biggest change that needs to happen is for all of the units in each Codex to be equally viable for their point costs so the game has better variety, instead of; "Oh He's playing 1,000pts of Grey Knights, so I know he'll have two Dreadknights, a Librarian, Terminators, and probably a couple squads of Interceptors. He's going to alpha-strike or shunt-punch (same effect), and I know how to counter that, and I don't even need to see his list!"
This. This. A thousand times this.
X number of points should mean x number of points. Even if you just randomly select a number of units from your codex, you should have an equal chance of winning, not taking skill into account, against an opposing army of the same number of points.
I think we need more randomness. Each objective gives you d6 victory points, or d6+1 if you don't have a lord of war. Random gun ranges, random points costs. Shooting should get more powerful - make overwatch two sets of shots at +1 BS and no cover for the enemy, that will teach them for trying to use a melee weapon in the age of guns. Nerf terminators please.
In all seriousness, if you want a good game, go play Bolt Action or Infinity or some such. In the meantime, 40k can be fun by treating it somewhat like an RPG - focus on forging that narrative, make up cool rules and missions, ignore gak in the book that is unfun or stupid.
GW will not turn around and release a magical super-edition that fixes all the problems - just look at their track record!
20000+ points
