Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After discovering why I have not been able to replicate the results I had when I was younger (when I was accused of using an airbrush to produce blends I did by hand), and that this is because I have to add Thinner, Flow-Aid, Retarder, Chicken Soup, and a can of 51:50 motor oil to my paints, along with an Eye-of-Newt and Wart-of-Toad in order to get a behavior that is acceptable out of the paints.

The question I have is:

Can I just buy a bunch of empty dropper bottles (or ANY kind of bottles) when I get a new bottle of paint, and then pour half of each new bottle of paint into these other bottles. . . .

And THEN add the thinner, retarder, flow-aid, and Eye-of-Newt, as needed, to both bottles (or just one, in order to have some "unadulterated" paint around, for God knows what reason given how useless it is unadulterated) in order to have paint that doesn't need to be f***ed with so much before it is minimally usable?

Is there some treatise or dissertation from the paint manufacturers somewhere that describes WHY the HELL they felt the need to produce a line of paints, most of which are as thick as sparkling putty unless thinner is added by the gallon, and which dry while still in the brush without a retarder, and then pile up in a big mess unless a Flow-Aid is added to the "paint" (if one can call it that — Oh! And don't even get me started one he Eye-of-Newt problems!!!)???

If I wanted to have to add all of these things to my paint, I would just buy a tube of Liquitex, and be done with it, Knowing before hand that I would be expecting to need to add all sorts of things to my paint in order for the medium to work properly!!!

Seriously!!!

I am running really low on Eye-of-Newt, and the nearest occult painting supplier will not have any until the next Newt Harvest (And I might have to make due with California Spotted Newt, and not the better English or French Newt).

But what is going on here?

Is there a line of paints out there that maybe just needs a splash of water, and MAYBE every once in a while some other paint medium adjuster???

Just getting my paints ready is exhausting me.

MB

Okay, frankly, a rant is not helpful.

I have NO idea what you see as acceptable behavior from your paints, and you haven't described that at all. I also have no idea what paints you're using. I don't know what the models you painted look like. Though I do know that you at least think about adding gallons of thinner in to a paint pot.

My guess is you're wanting to paint that slows better. That'd be paint thinner, or often times, tap (or better yet, and it's cheap, purified) water. Of course you can buy dropper bottles and put the paint into them, it works perfectly well.

You must also consider that your eye for what looks right may have changed over the years as well, and if you've moved the atmosphere could have an impact (things in general dry MUCH quicker in Colorado than in San Diego, for example).

My friend, after viewing a few of your various threads, I think I can surmise that you are not enjoying this hobby much. Have you thought about a change of recreational activities?

Transferring paint from a pot to a dropper bottle is a pretty standard practice. eBay is a good place to look for dropper bottles that aren't expensive and a lot of the larger online hobby shops sell them (thewarstore.com, for instance).

However, mixing pre-thinned paints generally isn't the best of ideas... for one, they'll still dry out from exposure to air and second, you don't always need paint at the same consistency which is why it's easier in the long run to just adjust your paint based on the job at hand.

 troa wrote:
Okay, frankly, a rant is not helpful.

I have NO idea what you see as acceptable behavior from your paints, and you haven't described that at all. I also have no idea what paints you're using. I don't know what the models you painted look like. Though I do know that you at least think about adding gallons of thinner in to a paint pot.

My guess is you're wanting to paint that slows better. That'd be paint thinner, or often times, tap (or better yet, and it's cheap, purified) water. Of course you can buy dropper bottles and put the paint into them, it works perfectly well.

You must also consider that your eye for what looks right may have changed over the years as well, and if you've moved the atmosphere could have an impact (things in general dry MUCH quicker in Colorado than in San Diego, for example).

Texas to California and back a few times are the only moves. Paint did dry slower in SF than in Texas or LA, but I figured that the rather humid air of San Francisco had something to do with this.

I expect the paints to be able to do an acceptable drybrush, or wet-blending without having to add a ton of other additional medium-extenders to my paints.

Not a perfect, or show quality blend or dry-brush, but just one that does not look grainy as all hell.

I expect the paints to not dry so freaking fast. I suspect this has something to do with gamers being more impatient in painting their miniatures than we used to be. Just a guess, though.

I am trying to sort out some miniatures to show as examples, but due to the way I have painted the most recent bunch, getting them photographed at a level that would show the differences would be a huge chore (for one, the miniatures are not individually based, meaning that I would need to point out specific points on a specific miniature on a base of two to six miniatures. And... My table to photograph stuff on is currently full of stuff for my cat's recent illness, making taking photos with decent light to show the differences more than difficult).

But I will get around to this eventually.

But photos shouldn't be necessary (although I agree would be helpful - but I explained previously why I do not currently have much of a portfolio of work to show. If you want to see a sample of my older work, take a look at the cover art of the Steve Jackson's Games' OGRE/GEV miniatures when they were produced by SJGames or STUDIO 23 - I did all but two of them between 1995 (the last miniature I painted, in fact, before 2002) and 2004) to deal with the issues listed above.

As for the paints: The paints I have been using are Vallejo Model Colors.

I also just realized this evening that many of them are six to ten years old. Maybe that is a part of the problem; I know it is not a problem with the Metalics I have, which have the consistency out of the bottle like putty. My Testor's contour putty is not as thick as my Vallejo AV Model Color Brassy Brass, or Bright Silver. And the Metallics I have are only a year or two old (I bought them after having to take off school at UCLA in the fall of 2013 due to having Osteomylitis in my Tibia and Fibula of my right leg. So the oldest is two years, and the youngest is about a month old)

The question about they their bottles, which I know that I can buy was a bit more specific:

Will pre-mixing the Thinner, Retarder, and Flow-Aid cause a problem with the paint's longevity?

I have noticed that the paint I have on a wet-palette will last a few days when the Palette I sealed, but that paint mixed with the Retarder will have formed a film after a few days in the same Palette.

What is going on there?

Will it affect paint I pre-mix with a retarder in a bottle? My first thought would be "no." because there is a difference between paint and retarder in a bottle and the same paint diluted with water (different reactions in play).

I know that buying the Vallejo Model Air paints solves at least one off he problems: Thickness. But all I have bought of the Model Air series is a few Darker colors to use as washes (Black, Dark Brown, Green, and Red). They do not cover completely when I use them to paint base-colors, but in painting some wolves, I noticed that multiple coats gave me a very strong base, and that when mixed with a white or beige, they dry-brush without the need of a retarder-thinner and produce a dry-brush blend that is nearly grain-free (In other words: Good enough for my Gaming Standard).

Another non-rangy question:

What other (Non-GW) brands of paints are out there that dry slower than Vallejo?

This seems to be my primary issue. The Vallejo Metallics, even with a Redarder-Thinner (Liquitex Professional Liquid Slo-Dry ® Retarder; It functions as both a Thinner and a Retarder) they will often dry before I can get my brush to the miniature. I have found that I have to add a paste retarder (Grumbacher Acrylic Retarder Medium - so this is a retarder mixed with a tube-acrylic medium, which I have used for ages in 2D work) to the metallic in order to keep it liquid long enough to work with.

And due to Retarder Mediums (the Grumbacher stuff) REALLY retarding the drying, now I am stuck with the exact opposite problem of if I get too much Retader Medium in the Metallic, then I have to wait nearly a day before it is dry enough to continue working on (which sometimes I do want). But I would like consistency with the paints so that they behave at least a bit similarly to each other (I do not mind minor variations).

So... I know Reaper make some paints (But knowing the penetration that Genesis had in the miniature paintings industry, I worry that Reaper Paints might also be other people's paints, simply in different bottles - from 1985 to around 1990, everyone's paints except for Poly-S were made by Genesis Gaming Products, who became Reaper).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Snrub wrote:
My friend, after viewing a few of your various threads, I think I can surmise that you are not enjoying this hobby much. Have you thought about a change of recreational activities?

It might appear that way' but it is mostly frustration.

Imagine being a concert pianist and losing one of your hands. You might be just a bit frustrated at trying to play the piano at the level you used to play.

I do not expect to ever fully recover from what I lost, or full capability due to the nerve damage from being shot in the back twice.

But I apparently can still sculpt digitally quite well, and my other goals seem to be going well (if not frustrated by a doctor who is failing to provide accommodation for the failing condition of my legs, leaving me in considerable pain that can be a struggle to compensate for).

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Transferring paint from a pot to a dropper bottle is a pretty standard practice. eBay is a good place to look for dropper bottles that aren't expensive and a lot of the larger online hobby shops sell them (thewarstore.com, for instance).

However, mixing pre-thinned paints generally isn't the best of ideas... for one, they'll still dry out from exposure to air and second, you don't always need paint at the same consistency which is why it's easier in the long run to just adjust your paint based on the job at hand.

The exposure to air is less of a concern.

My biggest issue is with paints I use to blend with.

And currently, this has become a major chore to deal with, and I am wasting more paint than I am using having to re-mix the various medium extenders every time I need to do shading work.

The idea was to pre-mix a small quantity of paints that I typically use a lot for shading and highlighting so that I have a consistent mixture, and so that I do not have to stop and re-mix the paint every few minutes.

I have a palette of about a dozen paints that I use regularly for what I have been doing so far (This will no doubt change when I go to finish my Rohirrim, or the Tom Meier Elves I have - I have currently been doing just Goblins and Orcs, which have a rather narrow color palette), and I thought that maybe pre-mixing a half a bottle or so (or, given the amounts of thinner, retarder, and flow-aid I need to add,using just ⅓ of the original paint would give me at least a full bottle of pre-mixed paints) would speed things up.

I was just unsure, given the lack of familiarity with the paints on the market now what would happen if I did this.

My fear is that they would turn into some sort of paint-monster in the bottles overnight (something akin to mucus, or slime).

I also wonder if going to glass bottles would be a better idea.

One of the things that kept my 1980's paints useful for over a decade was that Genesis Gaming Products originally packaged our paints in glass bottles, to keep them from drying out faster than paints in plastic bottles (Plastic is porus to gasses - even if negligible so, over time this can dry out paints faster than if kept in glass or metal - although acrylic in metal would be a bad idea).

I see that I can get small glass bottles on eBay as well (Thanks for the suggestion - they are about 1/10th the price of the supplier I know of).

MB

Of course you can premix paints if that's what you want to do. Not a problem. Some stuff may separate out easier but I'm sure if you just mix it properly before using it your should be fine.

The reason paint manufacturers don't do it is simple really. They want the paints to be usable over a wide range of applications and also they can't trust paints will be the same consistency by the time they reach customers anyway.

The opacity can be reduced with thick mediums.... they don't add too much of it out of the factory because they know customers can add medium if they want but it's kind of difficult to remove.

The drying time can be reduced with retarder... they don't add it out of the factory because they know different applications require different drying times and so instead of making everything painfully slow drying, they sell a retarder to let the customer choose.

The flow can be improved by adding a flow aid... they don't add too much out of the factory because the amount you need depends on what you are painting over and what effect you are trying to achieve.

The reason we have dedicated airbrush lines of paint (Minitaire, Vallejo Air) is because when the company knows what you're going to be using the paint for they can tailor it better.

I can't say it's ever been a real problem for me. I just tweak and adjust the paint as I go. Only if I find myself using the same mix for the same colour over and over do I bother trying to premix a whole bottle of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeAfraid wrote:
One of the things that kept my 1980's paints useful for over a decade was that Genesis Gaming Products originally packaged our paints in glass bottles, to keep them from drying out faster than paints in plastic bottles (Plastic is porus to gasses - even if negligible so, over time this can dry out paints faster than if kept in glass or metal - although acrylic in metal would be a bad idea).

It's not the porosity of plastic that causes them to dry out, it's how well they seal. GW pots are the worst for it, they dry out all the time. The pots that coat d arms and privateer press use (which are the same as the old old old GW pots from about 15 years ago) don't dry out and they're also plastic. I have pots that are coming up on 20 years old and they still work. I haven't had any fully dry on me, but the Reaper paints in dropper bottles seem to be more inclined to thickening up and clogging than Vallejo's brand.

I've had Testors (glass bottle with metal lid), Tamiya (glass bottle with plastic lid) and Humbrol (metal tin with metal lid) dry out on me on occasion too.

So here is a wacky crazy idea I'll throw at you.

Why not just pre-mix your thinner-flo-retarder mixture then just add it to your paint as needed? If your using it the same way every time it would be your simplest way to get what you want with the least amount of hassle.

Get yourself a squirt bottle from Hobby Lobby, Dollar Tree etc mix it in and Blam.....Science.



Oh and a quick question. What type of blending are you doing? If your two-brush blending you would want your paint strait from the pot.

You can absolutely premix your thinner, retarder, flow aid and what have you with the paints in a bottle for use. BUT I would urge you to use distilled and de ionised water ~ using tap water invites things to grow when its sat around for 6+ months.
Tap water is often fine to thin at the point of usage, but can easily cause problems for long term storage.
The reason you may not want to is that some techniques might not want you to thin so much ~ example drybrushing. I do add some water, medium and flow aid to my paints when moving from citadel pots to droppers (it helps with getting the dregs out tbh) . its okay but for a drybrush I do find myself waiting for it to dry up a bit on the palette.

I did go to art school, so I am aware that there are different applications for acrylic paints. We had countless hours on various techniques for each.

But over 15 years of painting miniatures from 1978 - 1993, I only had to use various medium extenders maybe two or three times, and managed to produce several best-of-shows at Origins and Gencon in the 1980's at painting competitions.

Yet... Now I have discovered that even basic applications almost Demand that I put something in the paint (other than water, so that it will work the way that plain, unadulterated paint used to work for me?

I think there is such a thing as going too far, and if I am going to have to use a medium extender of some sort then I am probably best off going back to regular artist mediums, where I know the paint will require this to begin with, and will be 1/10 the price of gaming paints.

Medium extenders are excellent aids, and, yes, when I am painting a show-piece (something it may be a while before I get around to doing) they (Medium Extenders) are something I would make a special point of using.

I worked for maybe two or three years for Genesis Gaming Products making their line of paints with Al Pare in the 1980's, when they made EVERYONE'S paints, and we were able to produce paints that could produce show-pieces with nothing more than water (as I said previously in a prior post).

I think the current manufacturers are maybe over-thinking things (and over-charging people) if they are requiring the use of extenders.

I guess it is back to mixing my own paints if I am not able to buy a line of paints that is minimally functional without an extender.

MB

Well the 80's was a long time ago now, I don't know if most the current wargaming paint lines even existed back then

You can try different brands and see if a company makes something closer to what you want, but at the end of the day I think you're always going to want a slightly different mix to what the paint company sells..... which is why they also sell thinners/mediums/flow-aids/retarders

If you have the capacity to mix your own paints and aren't satisfied with what you can buy from the typical wargaming companies I don't see why you wouldn't just mix your own paints.

Wargaming paints are designed with the purpose of giving gamers a wide range of easy to use colours. The price per pot is more important than the price per ml. If that's not what you want then I guess you simply aren't the target audience.

BeAfraid wrote:
I think the current manufacturers are maybe over-thinking things (and over-charging people) if they are requiring the use of extenders.

They don't REQUIRE it. I've seen some damned impressively painted models where the modeller has stated they don't use mediums, retarders or flow aids of any kind. And for basic base coating and layering most paints from Citadel, Vallejo, P3, Reaper or whoever else work fine right out of the pot (just thinned slightly with water).

Rather than thinning everything with water, which reduces adhesion, I typically use Golden Artist Colors airbrush medium and a wet palette, which improves thickness and flow considerably. Drying is still a little fast, but humidity here is often enough to keep it relatively workable. I haven't tried adding retarder yet.

GW paint with water works fine for most colors for me (look at my gallery to see if it meets an acceptable standard to you).

All the funky stuff is really for special circumstances like painting yellow or white over black, or helping to wet blend two colors that are pretty far apart. I like using a wet palette.

Also: Some additives seem ok, others seem not so much to add to a paint. The problem with prethinning a paint (especially with special mediums) for me is that sometimes I want the paint thicker - to drybrush as an easy example, but also to edge highlight, to create texture, or for coverage when brushstrokes don't matter.

 Talys wrote:
GW paint with water works fine for most colors for me (look at my gallery to see if it meets an acceptable standard to you).

All the funky stuff is really for special circumstances like painting yellow or white over black, or helping to wet blend two colors that are pretty far apart. I like using a wet palette.

Also: Some additives seem ok, others seem not so much to add to a paint. The problem with prethinning a paint (especially with special mediums) for me is that sometimes I want the paint thicker - to drybrush as an easy example, but also to edge highlight, to create texture, or for coverage when brushstrokes don't matter.

I completely understands this, which is why my idea was to have a portion that was pre-thinned (since I rarely need a thick paint), and then leaving ½ of the paint in the original bottle for the rare moments when I need an unadulterated paint.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well the 80's was a long time ago now, I don't know if most the current wargaming paint lines even existed back then

You can try different brands and see if a company makes something closer to what you want, but at the end of the day I think you're always going to want a slightly different mix to what the paint company sells..... which is why they also sell thinners/mediums/flow-aids/retarders

If you have the capacity to mix your own paints and aren't satisfied with what you can buy from the typical wargaming companies I don't see why you wouldn't just mix your own paints.

Wargaming paints are designed with the purpose of giving gamers a wide range of easy to use colours. The price per pot is more important than the price per ml. If that's not what you want then I guess you simply aren't the target audience.

BeAfraid wrote:
I think the current manufacturers are maybe over-thinking things (and over-charging people) if they are requiring the use of extenders.

They don't REQUIRE it. I've seen some damned impressively painted models where the modeller has stated they don't use mediums, retarders or flow aids of any kind. And for basic base coating and layering most paints from Citadel, Vallejo, P3, Reaper or whoever else work fine right out of the pot (just thinned slightly with water).

I would like to see both these models, and the artists actually painting them,so I can see what it is that they are doing.

I know there are different, more "painterly" styles of painting for which the paints would work fine.

But like mold-lines, I have this intense phobia of brush strokes where a brush stroke isn't intended to be (such as on the side off tank, where it looks like the crew has painted a mascot or kill markers on the tank).

I am going to try ordering some completely new sets of Vallejo Model Colors, and some Reaper Sets (each sells small collections of about eight to a dozen paints in a set for particular "genres") to see how these work out.

If they too require me to add large quantities of medium extenders, then I am just goingto go back to buying tube medium, and empty bottles, and mixing my own paints to my own tastes. It will save me the frustration of my own ignorance of what is on the market.

And... I will finally be able to reproduce the Ruby, Saphire and Emerald paints that I loved for doing silk cloths on miniatures (but my Elves are likely to be the only ones with any silks, and then only a few... Well... They are also good for doing "glowing orbs," and other stuff like that).

MB

Well the guys I was thinking of are local guys who frequent my local store. But beyond that I think Talys paints pretty well. If I recall correctly jah-joshua has stated that he mostly uses P3 paints without any fancy additives.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=3488

I've also seen some incredible Lizardmen painted where the painter didn't even undercoat them and I seem to recall his techniques were rather simple though I can't remember whether he used things like retarders and flow-aids

I'm not saying flow aids and retarders and whatnot aren't useful, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they're required and the paint companies are over charging. The price isn't comparable to artist's paints because they serve a different purpose and it's fully expected that you'll need to thin paints with something (be it water or specifically made acrylic thinner) and then things like retarder and flow aid are useful for techniques that I'd suggest 99% of wargamers never use.

Regarding who makes Reaper's paints, I can answer that. When they were first coming out with their master series paints, during a tour of their factory they told me the base of the paint comes from Sherwin-Williams.

BeAfraid wrote:
I expect the paints to not dry so freaking fast. I suspect this has something to do with gamers being more impatient in painting their miniatures than we used to be. Just a guess, though.

Pretty much. Consider the commercial image of brands such as GW, "You can do this easily, with a little work." bright, fast, premixed and ready to roll with less effort.
The difference between rapidly painting in-store and throwing it on a table, and painting at home for a display standard, such as yourself.
There's no right or wrong in final outcome, but many of the less artisan paint ranges simply are not catering to you.

Personally I live in a cold, damp country so even on a tile palette things dry slowly. Air conditioning in some venues feths it up something royal though, at which point I lose patience.

Can I just buy a bunch of empty dropper bottles (or ANY kind of bottles) when I get a new bottle of paint, and then pour half of each new bottle of paint into these other bottles. . . .

And THEN add the thinner, retarder, flow-aid, and Eye-of-Newt, as needed, to both bottles (or just one, in order to have some "unadulterated" paint around, for God knows what reason given how useless it is unadulterated) in order to have paint that doesn't need to be f***ed with so much before it is minimally usable?

Several of my friends do this, empty dropper bottles are available from China on eBay. Add small glass beads and you've got yourself a go-er.
Wish you luck with your paint, and hope to see what you come out with when you're getting back into your stride.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well the guys I was thinking of are local guys who frequent my local store. But beyond that I think Talys paints pretty well. If I recall correctly jah-joshua has stated that he mostly uses P3 paints without any fancy additives.

Thanks!!

I find that P3 actually paints really nicely with minimal thinning. They're somewhere (good) between a Citadel base and layer paint. The colors are very unique, however -- lacking some of the basic paints -- and I'm not keen on the whole mixing thing, so it's not an option for my main paint.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I'm not saying flow aids and retarders and whatnot aren't useful, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they're required and the paint companies are over charging. The price isn't comparable to artist's paints because they serve a different purpose and it's fully expected that you'll need to thin paints with something (be it water or specifically made acrylic thinner) and then things like retarder and flow aid are useful for techniques that I'd suggest 99% of wargamers never use.

Definitely. I think that the additives and mediums are nice tools, but I think that plain old water does the trick most of the time. There used to be a blog -- From the Warp -- where the fellow had great stuff, and he never used anything other than water, and Duncan Rhodes does all his minis on the Warhammer YouTube channel with just water too.

One other thing that nobody seems to have mentioned is that anyone who's painted a variety of stuff will know that not all colors are made equal. For example, a navy blue or dark brown, just throw it on with any old brush and it looks great. Taxi cab yellow or white feathers when you've primed black? Maybe 9 super thin layers and a little divine intervention. My point is only that adding the same amount of Magic Thinning Juice to every bottle of paint would probably not be optimal.

Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes, on things like tanks and terrain, there are parts that will be weathered heavily (like tracks), and you might as well just paint it in as few coats as possible, because all anyone is going to see is the mud that you're caking on after


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Several of my friends do this, empty dropper bottles are available from China on eBay. Add small glass beads and you've got yourself a go-er.
Wish you luck with your paint, and hope to see what you come out with when you're getting back into your stride.

Dollar store is a good place to pick them up too! When you're using cheapos, test the cap to make sure they close properly. Some cheap dropper bottles I've gotten don't seal well.

Only when I am doing the finest lines and details do I ever feel the need to add additives to the paint.

I used to add water, retarder, matte medium, etc... and then I got lazy. I stopped adding all that crap and just sgarted sticking the brush in the pot, wiping off the excess, and brushing it directly on until I liked what I saw...

The paint isnt going on gloppy... its not leaving streaks of odd colors... it isnt concealing the details...

If I do feel I need the paint a little thinner... I get the brush a little wet, then stick it in the pot! For me, its working fine-- keep in mind this is with Citadel Base paints, the thickest crap imaginable!

If I need to mix paints out of the pot, then a little retarder is nice. Or if I need the layer more transparent, then medium is great. But not as a rule.

Not everyone needs to paint like me. The additives work for some peeps (a lot on this forum, it seems), and thats fine-- whatever you need to get the job done! But you definateoy dont need it.

This was an interesting read. OP - Did you experiment with the humidity in your room? I have moved around the world quite a bit and found that different climate severely affects drying time. Maybe a cheap room humidifier helps? I am sure it's not the paints.

Just today i noticed that after painting leather parts on 12 chaos warrior my initial, small blob of undiluted vallejo air paint was still totally fluid, I could have gone on for another 12 and I am a slow painter so it was sitting on my plastic palette for about 45 - 60 mins easily if not longer. I live in Shanghai now, in Hong Kong (almost tropical climate) paint took even longer but spraypaint was only usable inside with the AC on due to the high humidity. In Germany, where the climate is dry and cool, things dry in no time.

Hope this was helpful.

if you are carefull, and apply the paints right, you don't really NEED to water down, it's just helpful