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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 09:08:41
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle
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On the attachment I have a rules conundrum. I am not very familiar with D-weapons in the first place and this new D-Scythe wound allocation is a bit unclear for me.
Attached you find an example.
In this particular scenario, as I understood the rules, ork nr. 2 will survive always, orks 1, 3, 4, and 5 take each one personal D6 roll on the destroyer table, and nob 6, and warboss 7 take each two rolls on the destroyer table.
It is clear that the extra wounds do not spill over; my rules clarifications are thus these:
1) Is the above scenario correct?
2) I shouldn't roll all 8 hits at the same time, and then start allocating wounds to the closest one?
If 1. is correct, then group of 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes firing will be very slow to resolve. There could be up to 5 per model hits for each model under the templates;
3) how could this be allocated more quickly?
4) and could I place single template at a time and resolve each separately to make the wound allocation easier? Easier in the sense that I would not need to remember which ork takes how many hits between 0 and 5.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 09:17:20
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Screaming Shining Spear
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It's a lot more simple - it's almost identical to normal template resolution.
In your example you have a total of 8 hits. You roll on the D chart 8 times and remove the 1's and 2's as they fail to do anything thanks to the penalty on the chart for the d scythe.
Let's assume you get 2 6's and 4 results of 3-5. This creates 2 wound pools
You then allocate these from the front with models making saves / FNP as appropriate.
In the pictured example I would resolve the 4 results of 3-5 first resulting in 4 dead orks then resolve the results of 6 meaning the last ork and nob now die.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 09:59:24
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Massaen wrote:It's a lot more simple - it's almost identical to normal template resolution.
In your example you have a total of 8 hits. You roll on the D chart 8 times and remove the 1's and 2's as they fail to do anything thanks to the penalty on the chart for the d scythe.
Let's assume you get 2 6's and 4 results of 3-5. This creates 2 wound pools
You then allocate these from the front with models making saves / FNP as appropriate.
In the pictured example I would resolve the 4 results of 3-5 first resulting in 4 dead orks then resolve the results of 6 meaning the last ork and nob now die.
I like how you got the -1 modifier right for the 2's and then forgot about the -1 for the 6's. So if he rolled 2 6's and 4 3-5 it is still one wound pool because of that pesky -1 modifier.
So in the picture example and from Massaen's rolls if none of them have invuln or FNP then 1-5 would die and the nob (they have 2 wounds right?) would only die if when he takes the hit the d3 rolls for 2 wounds or more.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 10:45:24
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle
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The reason I struggle with the rules here, is that destroyer weapon USR says that the wounds do not spill over to next model. While Destroyer weapon attack table does say "The model suffers a hit that wounds automatically and cause it to lose D3 Wounds instead of 1." Which kind of implies that I should roll separately for each model instead of creating single wound pool for the unit.
Both of above, to me, sound like I should allocate these specific to the model, not the unit.
And due to these I'm not sure if this multiwound model wound take the next die from the pool, or be skipped for the remainder, as it was hit with only one flamer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 11:21:37
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Missionary On A Mission
Australia
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Templates (and blasts) generate a number of hits on the Unit based on the amount of models underneath it - they do not specifically hit the actual Models you cover though. Models are still removed closest to closest.
So using your example above, you generate 8 hits on the unit. Orcs 1 and 2 are the two equal closest models, so one of those Boyz takes the 1st hit - on a 3+ (in this case due to the -1 penalty on the Destroyer Chart that D-Scythes have) roll a d3 and he takes that many wounds. If he managed to survive, then that specific Boy would take the next hit (of which you roll on the D Chart again, and on a 3+ take another d3 wounds) and so on until all 8 hits have been allocated or the unit is completely destroyed.
Yes its kinda time consuming, which is one of the main reasons why D Weapons are stupid in regular games imo. Yeah, the 'on a 6 you cant take any saves' is OP but the real crime is needlessly time-consuming rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/26 11:23:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 11:28:29
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle
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Thanks Saint GoonBandito. I was afraid it would be really slow to allocate the wounds.
At least with single wound models and 3+ on D table the rolls with D-Scythe can be simultaneous.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 12:10:03
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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GoonBandito wrote:Templates (and blasts) generate a number of hits on the Unit based on the amount of models underneath it - they do not specifically hit the actual Models you cover though. Models are still removed closest to closest.
So using your example above, you generate 8 hits on the unit. Orcs 1 and 2 are the two equal closest models, so one of those Boyz takes the 1st hit - on a 3+ (in this case due to the -1 penalty on the Destroyer Chart that D-Scythes have) roll a d3 and he takes that many wounds. If he managed to survive, then that specific Boy would take the next hit (of which you roll on the D Chart again, and on a 3+ take another d3 wounds) and so on until all 8 hits have been allocated or the unit is completely destroyed.
Yes its kinda time consuming, which is one of the main reasons why D Weapons are stupid in regular games imo. Yeah, the 'on a 6 you cant take any saves' is OP but the real crime is needlessly time-consuming rules.
This is not correct. Yes you hit units, no you do not allocate hits you allocate wounds. So you roll 8 dice get two lots of 1-2 and 6 lots of 3-6. So you discard the first group and apply the second as wound pools. So the first wound from this pool gets allocated to the nearest Orks, he takes any appropriate saves (in this case none) only once he fails those saves do you roll the d3 wounds (which you don't have to do as 1 wound kills him). So in effect here you only need to roll the d3s for multi wound models. So say you roll 7 3-6 results from your 8 dice, the 6 boyz die then you roll a d3 for how many wounds the War boss takes. D Weapons don't really slow down the game when you know how they work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 12:19:14
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Fail on my part for the -1 thing! I thought I remembered it all ;-)
Flingit is spot on
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 13:30:04
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Dakka Veteran
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Exactly what flingit said.
You just ignore the D3 wounds part until it's time to apply a hit to a multi-wound model, THEN you roll it. So, it actually speeds up play by eliminating multi-wound models faster!
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There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 15:41:38
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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So in the example, the Nob survives for a split second, only to be killed by the Wall of Death?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 16:09:07
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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In the example above, you get 8 Hits. You roll 8 dice, and for every 3+ you remove a boy, since the AP is sufficient to bypass their armour, they have no invul save [presumably] and cover saves are ignored. Multiple wounds [from the d3] aren't spread through the unit, so each boy takes d3 wounds... since 1 is sufficient to kill him you don't need to roll the d3, but you could if it amused you. If you were to get 7x 3+ results, the front 6 boys would be removed, and then for the 7th hit, you'd roll a d3 and the Nob would take that many wounds. If you happened to only roll a 1 on the d3, and you managed to roll 8x 3+ damage results, the Nob would then take another d3 wounds... which would kill him for sure. Hypothetically, there's next to nothing in-game that 5x D-Scythes shouldn't wipe from the board, if the targeted models are all within template range. EDIT: I started a thread on the subject, in case anyone's interested. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646199.page
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/26 17:40:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 17:29:04
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Murrieta, CA
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greatbigtree wrote:In the example above, you get 8 Hits. You roll 8 dice, and for every 3+ you remove a boy, since the AP is sufficient to bypass their armour, they have no invul save [presumably] and cover saves are ignored. Multiple wounds [from the d3] aren't spread through the unit, so each boy takes d3 wounds... since 1 is sufficient to kill him you don't need to roll the d3, but you could if it amused you.
If you were to get 7x 3+ results, the front 6 boys would be removed, and then for the 7th hit, you'd roll a d3 and the Nob would take that many wounds.
If you happened to only roll a 1 on the d3, and you managed to roll 8x 3+ damage results, the Nob would then take another d3 wounds... which would kill him for sure.
Hypothetically, there's next to nothing in-game that 5x D-Scythes shouldn't wipe from the board, if the targeted models are all within template range. 
Hammernators are about the only thing that might have a chance. Or any of that 2+ re-rollable stuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 18:00:34
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Hellish Haemonculus
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Units with FNP a and a high enough Toughness to survive? (Grots or Corpsethief Claws?)  Is that right, or am I misinterpreting?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 18:15:42
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Don't get FnP vs Destroyer. A Screamer star would probably laugh it off. Say 6 hits per template, 30 hits 20 wounding hits 0.55 failed invuns... Even with d3 wounds you won't kill a Screamer on average.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 18:57:44
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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what is the deal that it couints as s4 for ID? Doesn't that mean you can get FNP vs the flamers?
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It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 19:06:19
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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Indeed, the S4 for ID purposes is an exception to the normal counts as S 10 for ID purposes... if I recall correctly. So long as you have T 3+, you can use FNP against D-Scythes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 19:18:45
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Still destroyer so no FnP. You could be T10 and you still don't get FnP vs the Scythes or indeed any Destroyer hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 19:41:25
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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40k RB, pg 163, "Destroyer Weapons" - only results of a "6" deny FNP, which D-Scythes can't do since they get a minus 1 to the table.
D Weapons typically count as S 10 for ID purposes [often denying FNP] however D-Scythes are an exception in that they're treated as S4, apparently, for ID purposes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 20:15:32
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Dakka Veteran
Stockholm
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Feel No Pain rule:
Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved
Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule.
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~5000 points of IG and DKoK
I'm awful at reading private messages, so just reply to the threads I'm visiting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/26 20:32:14
Subject: Re:Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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40k RB, pg 164, Feel No Pain:
Absolutely correct, not allowed against D-Weapons. That's why I like quoted rules, so I can look them up.
Needless to say, I don't see much in way of D-Weapons previous to this Eldar 'dex, so it's something new. And I don't have much that can use FNP, so it has never come up for me.
Thanks for the explanation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/27 03:38:40
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Murrieta, CA
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Oberron wrote:what is the deal that it couints as s4 for ID? Doesn't that mean you can get FNP vs the flamers?
Regular D hits count as Strength 10 for instant death. This is important for multi-wound models of T5 or less. Regular destroyer attacks hitting a Tyanid Warrior would automatically kill the warrior (assuming no cover). D-Scythe destroyer hits only count as strength 4, and as such, will need to roll the 1d3 to see how many wounds are inflicted with each destroyer hit.
For example a wraithguard unit fires at a 3 "man" warrior squad and gets 8 hits. You would then roll a d6 for each hit. On a 3+, a model will take d3 wounds. Continuing with this example, you 5 rolls of 3 or better. You then apply the damage, roll a 2 on your first roll, the warrior loses 2 wounds. On the second roll you get 3, but since the warrior in front only has 1 wound left, he dies but that d3 wont spill into the next guy. You roll another 3, killing the next guy in line. Bad luck follows and you roll two more 1s. In this example the last warrior will survive with 1 wound.
Had you roll the 2 3s first followed by the other rolls you would have killed the entire squad.
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Space Marines (Anything but BA or GK): 6k
Tau: 3k
-Thaylen |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/28 02:01:40
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Deranged Necron Destroyer
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So from what i'm understanding since the line under Destroyer weapons from the brb now becomes " For the purpose of determining if a Destroyer hit has Instant Death special rule, assume it as Strength 4." because of the eldar flamer this makes anything with t3+ and multiple wounds could live from the d3 wounds.
Also had this happen in a game the other day how does the flamers work with the no excape rule and the allocate hits randomly? Is it d6 hits allocated randomly per each flamer then roll on D table?
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It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/28 02:48:53
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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D3 hits per D-Scythe, allocated to the closest models.
Edit, sorry No Escape is not Wall of Death. You are correct.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/28 02:49:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/28 16:06:35
Subject: Craftworld D-Scythes are D-weapons, how does that work?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Valshaen wrote:On the attachment I have a rules conundrum. I am not very familiar with D-weapons in the first place and this new D-Scythe wound allocation is a bit unclear for me.
You roll 8 dice, discarding 1's and 2's thanks to the special rule on their flamers.
Then you roll saves if they have them. We will assume they have none.
6 actual hits come through, each one doing d3 wounds to a model. Each ork boy has 1 wound, so all you do is remove 6 ork boys.
That's it. Against multi wound guys you would simply roll for how many wounds they take before they die. A row of 6 nobs would work this way:
First nob takes 1 wound from a d3 roll. Second roll makes him take 3. He's gone
Next nob takes 3 wounds, gone.
Another nob takes 1 and another 1 from two d3 rolls, dead.
The final nob takes 1 wound from the d3 roll. 3 nobs are dead in total.
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