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Hi Dakka!

I've been playing WHFB for a little under 2 years now using Orcs and Goblins, and I really enjoy the hobby, I love painting and I love seeing 2 painted armies lined up on the table ready to do epic battle, my only problem is that I really struggle with losing games.

I play every Thursday with a local club, we're all good friends so we like to have a laugh with each other. My W/L ratio is pretty close to 50/50, but the games I lose, I just get really down and frustrated with certain mistakes, even sometimes rules I think (in my infinite wisdom) are broken/poorly written. I'm very aware of it, and I've mentioned it to the guys at the club, and they say its not a problem and not to worry about it, but I know it can't be much fun to play against. It doesn't last very long usually, but for a turn or two I can get really defeatist.

I'm going to Battle Brothers in Nottingham at the end of May, and I'm a little concerned that it may lead to me not enjoying the event as much as I should be, and I'm worried that my partner (who is also my brother and attends the club with me) will have their experience affected negatively as well.

What advice can you offer to someone who wants to be more fun to play against/with, but cant seem to stop getting defeatist when things go south?

Thanks!!!

It is your secret mission to lose. By sacrificing key units and objectives throughout the battle you are influencing the wider war in your favour, seeding the battleground with Orc spores which will, in the fullness of time, sprout new clans to carry on the fight...

Cognizance of it is the first step. The worst "bad losers" have absolutely no clue they are bad losers.

When you feel yourself get frustrated (and i do too sometimes), i take a deep breath and say to myself "Is it more important that I have fun with a friend, or that I win this game? If to have fun means that you have to win every game, then how can both people playing have fun?"

I find this calms me down. My most often opponents Skaven Lightning Cannon is, IMHO, one of the stupidest written pieces in the game - not because i don't think the rules are okay, but the rules are written in one way, the FAQ question asks to clarify a point, and the FAQ answer clarifies that point and then expounds on a point not asked, thereby increasing the powerlevel of the piece to a huge degree. This piece pisses me off to no end.

This past weekend we were doing a 3 way ogres (me) vs. O&G vs. Skaven using ET: Archaon list building rules, and my three mournfang were solitaired by the cannon before they could get in the game due to its workings, which reminded me how irritating i find the cannon.

Just took a breath, reassured myself that my bulls were going to eat his rats, and eventually get to that cannon and face hit it.



Bottom line: its a game. It doesn't make a lick of difference who wins or loses as long as fun is had by all. If you have to win to have fun, then someone is always not having fun at the end of a game, and that seems gakky to me.

At least your win/loss ratio is about 50/50. Mine got horrible and i am like a 6 year veteran of the game. Imagine playing newer players and struggling because they take some stupid elf army or decide the only way to ruin your fun is with a bloodthirster or end times character like Nagash.

Personally i just have issues playing as skaven. You face an army with any type of light shooting and they'll take out your weapons teams in a hurry. Don't even bother bringing them to the field against wood elves as they'll get sniped out immediately regardless of slave blocks or anything. If ranged cavalry can see over the slave blocks or the opponent is in a hill or building and can also see over them it doesn't matter. Also the skaven misfires are just brutal.

My main problem is that skaven are an old book and need an FAQ and a fix for everything. Everything's too slow, no armor, no mounted units for the most part and everything you count on to win a close combat dies easily unless you flank with it (exception being the abomination) and hordes give off a ton of combat resolution despite claims that skaven are so OP. I won't say it's a terrible army but i feel like it's horribly exaggerated how good they are. People act like we have all the best things all the time and it's not always the case.

I find it helps to, as Haight said, take a breath, and just review the situation. I look at why i'm losing, and what could be done in the future to prevent this outcome again, as well as "is it my fault or the dice gods?".

Another good one, is play very casual games. This is not for everyone (I know too many people who only play to win). When playing very casual games simply for the fun of the game, I find it much more enjoyable, and appreciate the little details more, and this kinda rubbed off onto my more competitive games. I'm confident it also made me a better player, trying out tactic simply because they sounded cool, rather than they were good, taught me a thing or two.

What i was a little more disgusted with is playing against somebody last saturday. They didn't know the game but even just after i declared one phase was over they wouldn't let me go back and do some movement i wanted to do without persuading and acted like it was some massive act of mercy to allow me to do so. Pretty much everybody in a non-competitive setting has allowed people to go finish up their moves and be more casual but this guy took persuading to even give a few chances at this. Keep in mind this is a new player to fantasy that doesn't even know all the fantasy rules. His anger and issues made me want to quit halfway through the game. Just don't be like this guy.

As far as warhammer fantasy goes i just want a 50/50 win to loss ratio. It's humbling to lose more which would probably help people stop being smug jerks when they need to be de-throned. Usually though i only win against very few people even when i feel like i'm more skilled.

I just wish skaven could do more damage when flanking an enemy. Usually to do any kind of damage you need to at least flank with stormvermin or something more potent. Generally skaven lose most combats and even if you have infinity bajillion dudes losing combats can force your guys to break. Also they tend not to take enough guys down with them. Usually against my opponents even when i win combats the enemy doesn't break and if they do break i usually can't chase them down. This generally leads to them rallying and coming back later unless they're under 25% which is almost never.

Oh and i won't lie sometimes i've had issues with being a poor sport but the game before last i tried fixing that issue even if my opponent felt the need to bring other people over to let them know what extremely painful thing they did to me to only spread salt on my wounds.

I pretty much do what everyone else said and just review the situation and why I'm losing. However, when I know I'm losing and know that I'm being a bad sport, I tell myself to go balls out and do things I normally wouldn't do.

For example, I play Skaven, and one of the top players at my local gaming store plays high elves (He basically tables everyone besides THE* best player in our group who plays Ogres).
I had a good first turn, one shotting his frostheart phoenix with a warp lightning cannon. However, by turn 5, I basically just had slaves left on the table.

I was a pretty bad sport at this point because I have no respect for players who take advantage of loopholes in the rules (for example, railroading, which is what he does CONSTANTLY), even when the game is casual... And the fact that his one person with Heroic Killing Blow (forget the name) one-shot my screaming bell in the first round of combat.

EDIT: I should probably add that he was able to get in combat with my screaming bell unit because the bell blew up the building that the unit was in (which happens on a 5+ with one of the results).. Which gave him a perfect view of the unit.. Dice just weren't going my way.

Instead of complaining, being that we never stated "Oh, we're using ETC rules" or something before the game, I decided to take matters into my own hands...

"So.. I'm about 1800 points down and the game is about to end...hmm.. I'M COMING AFTER THOSE BOLT THROWERS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE."

He basically let me charge to his bolt throwers because he knew he had an astounding victory.. It was glorious seeing the bolt throwers panic as slaves amassed toward them.

Well, to sum it up, I like to take breathers and turn the situation into a funny one, even if it means I lose horribly.. Damn high elves.

I have difficulties with losing. When I play, I want to win. I enjoy the rush of victory, and that enjoyment is the opposite side of the coin flip that ends up being frustration and helplessness when losing.

I recognized this in myself a long time ago, and have adapted by allowing myself to feel the "agony" for a brief while, before pulling up my boot-straps and figuring out what I can do to salvage the situation, regardless of how unlikely. There's almost always a chance to turn the game around. Maybe you get lucky and that last couple duders pass a bunch of cover saves and actually survive. Maybe your guys over there can shoot a little above average and wipe out that squad that's holding the objective. Hey, just 3 wounds and his squad could fail his Ld 10 check... he's right against the board edge!

It works for me. Ride the wave back to shore, get your feet on the ground, and figure out how you could win. Then go for it.

If you still lose, it happens. Nobody has a 20 year win streak. Not a legitimate one, anyhow. So after the game, ride the wave, and even if it takes a sleep to get over it, think about the game afterwards and retool your mind. The most important thing is to realize you aren't perfect, no matter how badly you don't want to admit it.

From there, you have to acknowledge that while luck may have been a factor, you were still the one making choices, and your choices lost. So you then have to reconsider your strategies and tactics, to see what might have worked better. Even if it feels counter intuitive. Maybe you should have just left his deathstar free to roam. The most it can kill is one unit a turn. Had you focused on the rest of his army, you could have won the game by *fill in answer here*.

If you accept you for you, sometimes you can cope with things as they are instead of trying to force a change that might not work for you. I'm a passionate guy, and I wouldn't want to be dis-passionate about my game. Seeing it as part of a bigger picture would cause a disconnect for me, and I don't want that. *music* I'd rather hurt, then feel nothing at alllll *end music* So I cope, try to speed through the dejection into fight back mode, and go from there.

It does get frustrating when you bring paper and your opponent brought scissors. Nothing is more frustrating then a bad match up. But remember it's just a game in the end.

Put it into perspective: Any game that revolves around rolling dice is always going to give you lemons from time to time. Can't win em all, but then why would you want to?

Just laugh it off, and remember that it's a game, just a nice, pleasant way to pass the time. Remember also that the winner of gw events is the person who is most fun to play against. When I worked for gw I saw and played against many poor losers, but the bad winners were by far the worst.

I had the same realization about a year ago, after my second straight event where I placed dead last out of 40+ players for sportsmanship.

Here are a few tips from my own journey towards rehabilitation. The underlying theme is to always keep in mind how to make the game more fun for your opponent:

1) If you're a rules lawyer you're a rules lawyer. It's written into your bones and nothing you do will change that. Instead of fighting it, just take the time to learn the rules backwards and forwards so that you can become a "rules guide" for the game rather than an antagonistic "rules lawyer." It is better to tell your opponent how a situation works well ahead of time than argue how it SHOULD have worked once it has already been done.

2) Learn to LOOK like you are having fun, even when you are not. That may sound a bit dire, but honestly it's important for a tournament. Even when you are railing against yourself for a stupid mistake that is going to cost you the game, if you don't look like you're having fun it will hurt your opponent's ability to have fun.

Note that I'm not saying to "learn how to enjoy losing." feth that. If you're competitive like me, which judging from your OP I'm assuming you are, there is very little chance of this ever happening. Instead learn not to let it bother you. This means faking it at first, until eventually it just doesn't rattle you as much.

3) Learn to see losses as "learning experiences." Instead of getting angry, just chill out and parse everything you did wrong. Ask your opponent what you think should have been done differently: odds are they will tell you exactly at what point they capitalized on some mistake of yours, or how you failed to see something coming.

4) DO NOT GET MAD ABOUT DICE ROLLS. Don't do it. This is the NUMBER ONE thing that pisses opponents off. There is absolutely no sense in getting angry about bad dice rolls, so just don't do it. Bite your tongue, jam your keys into your leg, whatever it takes. But do NOT bitch about bad dice.

5) Cheer on your opponent's good dice rolls. Again...it does nothing to harm you. The dice have spoken. Cheering on your opponent makes them happier about the game, which is your goal. And again...it costs you nothing.

6) Yell. It makes the game more fun when people yell stuff. Get into it. Get drunk. Stand on chairs and point at stuff. Instead of getting angry at my dice when they roll poorly, I started yelling at my vampires for being lazy. It's amusing enough for my opponent, and was an outlet of my frustration for me.

7) Last but not least, don't talk about what you did well in front of your opponent. If you made some amazing tactical move then bite your tongue until you're with friends later. If your opponent is bummed about a game, blame it on your own good dice rolls. Unless they ask what went wrong, then tell them if you wish. Again...it's about managing your opponents' feelings. Some people's pride won't allow them to admit to defeat, and thus they're happier if you just blame it on a few good dice rolls. It costs you nothing, and you stand to gain in sportsmanship points (or just not pissing off your regular opponents).

DeadlySarcasm wrote:

What advice can you offer to someone who wants to be more fun to play against/with, but cant seem to stop getting defeatist when things go south?

Thanks!!!

My advice would be "never lose"

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
At least your win/loss ratio is about 50/50. Mine got horrible and i am like a 6 year veteran of the game. Imagine playing newer players and struggling because they take some stupid elf army or decide the only way to ruin your fun is with a bloodthirster or end times character like Nagash.

Personally i just have issues playing as skaven. You face an army with any type of light shooting and they'll take out your weapons teams in a hurry. Don't even bother bringing them to the field against wood elves as they'll get sniped out immediately regardless of slave blocks or anything. If ranged cavalry can see over the slave blocks or the opponent is in a hill or building and can also see over them it doesn't matter. Also the skaven misfires are just brutal.

My main problem is that skaven are an old book and need an FAQ and a fix for everything. Everything's too slow, no armor, no mounted units for the most part and everything you count on to win a close combat dies easily unless you flank with it (exception being the abomination) and hordes give off a ton of combat resolution despite claims that skaven are so OP. I won't say it's a terrible army but i feel like it's horribly exaggerated how good they are. People act like we have all the best things all the time and it's not always the case.

I totally agree with you. Skaven are one of the most over powered books. Because its old it doesn't really follow the same lines as far as abilities. Spell with no types that cast on ridiculously low numbers?! Crazy wargear and obscene costs. Cheap useless units that block and great shooting. I am not saying they are the eldar of fantasy but they are quite powerful. New Stormfiends may be actually broken though. 12 D6 s5 armor piercing shots on the move? Insane.

I guess it's how you approach the game. In tournaments that I attend I let people take back moves and if the forget something I let them do it. Has won me a few times in events with 40 or more player best sportsmanship. Last tournament I was at best spotsmanship won me $100 and a sword. Yeah I hardly ever win a game but winning is not everything.

 Icelord wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
At least your win/loss ratio is about 50/50. Mine got horrible and i am like a 6 year veteran of the game. Imagine playing newer players and struggling because they take some stupid elf army or decide the only way to ruin your fun is with a bloodthirster or end times character like Nagash.

Personally i just have issues playing as skaven. You face an army with any type of light shooting and they'll take out your weapons teams in a hurry. Don't even bother bringing them to the field against wood elves as they'll get sniped out immediately regardless of slave blocks or anything. If ranged cavalry can see over the slave blocks or the opponent is in a hill or building and can also see over them it doesn't matter. Also the skaven misfires are just brutal.

My main problem is that skaven are an old book and need an FAQ and a fix for everything. Everything's too slow, no armor, no mounted units for the most part and everything you count on to win a close combat dies easily unless you flank with it (exception being the abomination) and hordes give off a ton of combat resolution despite claims that skaven are so OP. I won't say it's a terrible army but i feel like it's horribly exaggerated how good they are. People act like we have all the best things all the time and it's not always the case.

I totally agree with you. Skaven are one of the most over powered books. Because its old it doesn't really follow the same lines as far as abilities. Spell with no types that cast on ridiculously low numbers?! Crazy wargear and obscene costs. Cheap useless units that block and great shooting. I am not saying they are the eldar of fantasy but they are quite powerful. New Stormfiends may be actually broken though. 12 D6 s5 armor piercing shots on the move? Insane.

No skaven are not OP. It's just the restricted competitions where skaven are OP. In a normal friendly game where everybody has access to their stupid crap and End Times units you can't complain. I have an opponent that claims skaven are OP while using a bloodthirster with 10 heroic killing blow attacks at str 6 or Nagash. His opinion is now invalid.

Our weapons teams die to a stiff breeze regardless of how you try to help them, most of our infantry just suck in general though they can hold up opponents for a couple turns. If you want to say jezzails are good then congrats for finding an opponent who has the money to shell out for 10-15 jezzails with each costing 52 USD per box of 3 (in other words 260 USD for 15 jezzails at least). Even then jezzails have BS 3 so go hide in woods or behind a building. Chances are most flying units, ambushers and everything will get around them anyway. We have no armor, no fast units, no flying, no swiftstride, leadership is great in ranked units but our heavy hitters are normally glass cannons (usually only hit hard on the first turn of combat) that are either poor leadership or frenzied and a good deal of the magic we do have is generally not that helpful with a couple exceptions (which is why some people do wizard-less skaven). Against ogres the only spell we have that does much is cracks call and you need to find a way to get it.

Anyway sorry for the rant. Skaven need a new book and not a FAQ the size of a small pamphlet. The biggest issue is it was an end of 7th book that supposedly had 8th in mind (barely in mind if you ask me). Having an army with outdated rules so long is not good.

Oh and if skaven are OP then what about elves, gun-line armies, vampires counts and possibly even chaos daemons and warriors of chaos? See the problem there is i just listed half the armies that can be ridiculous and trust me vampires can be dumber than skaven could ever hope to be. Taking Nagash and friends (sounds like a children's show which is funny since nagash is reading a book to spirit host children) from End Times with the new undead lore and combined undead as well as no crumble from vampire general's death is like the game winning itself for you.

----------

More on topic and less about complaining what's OP and what isn't i will admit my sportsmanship has been pretty bad and i'd like to fix that. Part of the reason is i have lost plenty and partly because i don't have the money to buy stuff i need whereas people can shell out money for a new army before i even get a unit or two paid for. I also feel like my local GW has a bunch of fantasy players that i'd rather not associate (they're mostly snobs, smug and fake or terrible people) with whereas the 40k players seem friendlier and more fun (which is why i may play 40k if this is a trend). It may be either time to move on to 40k for me again or to go to a different hobby store as i may have poisoned the waters with the fantasy players too badly to fix at this point.

Possibly the issue is how competitive the fantasy group at my store is and fits with my possible reason being skaven are OP in restricted competitions. I generally can't stand competitive people though. They suck all the fun out of the game and instantly say what's good and sucks within a few seconds of seeing a unit in a white dwarf without giving the unit a chance. There's also the issue of copy/pasting everything the internet says as their opinion. It's just disgusting and i'm sick of it.

 Icelord wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
At least your win/loss ratio is about 50/50. Mine got horrible and i am like a 6 year veteran of the game. Imagine playing newer players and struggling because they take some stupid elf army or decide the only way to ruin your fun is with a bloodthirster or end times character like Nagash.

Personally i just have issues playing as skaven. You face an army with any type of light shooting and they'll take out your weapons teams in a hurry. Don't even bother bringing them to the field against wood elves as they'll get sniped out immediately regardless of slave blocks or anything. If ranged cavalry can see over the slave blocks or the opponent is in a hill or building and can also see over them it doesn't matter. Also the skaven misfires are just brutal.

My main problem is that skaven are an old book and need an FAQ and a fix for everything. Everything's too slow, no armor, no mounted units for the most part and everything you count on to win a close combat dies easily unless you flank with it (exception being the abomination) and hordes give off a ton of combat resolution despite claims that skaven are so OP. I won't say it's a terrible army but i feel like it's horribly exaggerated how good they are. People act like we have all the best things all the time and it's not always the case.

I totally agree with you. Skaven are one of the most over powered books. Because its old it doesn't really follow the same lines as far as abilities. Spell with no types that cast on ridiculously low numbers?! Crazy wargear and obscene costs. Cheap useless units that block and great shooting. I am not saying they are the eldar of fantasy but they are quite powerful. New Stormfiends may be actually broken though. 12 D6 s5 armor piercing shots on the move? Insane.

Skaven are not OP. At all. Not even in competitive play. In fact, they are even worse in competitive play because you can't bring all of the "OP" toys that Skaven have to offer and the hordes of slaves that Skaven are known for. If they win, it's because the person using them is a good warhammer player. Note that being OP and being competitive are two very different things. Although they aren't "OP," they are sure as hell going to try and take as much points from you as possible and not just keel over for you.
However, destroy all of our toys (Which isn't hard to do. At all. The best we have is a 4+ regeneration on the hell pit) and we're throwing STR 3 T3 bodies around until we lose. Nothing else in the army packs a punch. Not plague monks (Who's going to be scared of STR 3, no save, infantry?) or Stormvermin (Even with the razor standard.. they're garbage when compared to what other armies have as easy counters to it), nothing. I would laugh inside at a skaven player who brings rat ogres to a competitive event without the thought of "having fun" in mind.

I really don't see why so many people think Skaven are so OP when compared to the other ridiculous armies (Looking at you, elves). Are they more reliable than people make them out to be? Of course, but that doesn't mean they are completely OP and using the "old codex" argument is weak. Most tournaments comp that the lack of spell types doesn't even matter. For example, most spells still need LoS and spells like Scorch can't be cast into combat (I mean, if you do in a friendly game, I don't care what your interpretation of the rules are, you're a d**k). Not to mention many of bad-talked Skaven spells have short range (Plague spell list basically) or a list of criteria to meet before casting (Dreaded 13th.. Which doesn't even compare to Dweller's.. a spell almost EVERYONE has access to).

Our best shooting currently are warp lightning cannons and stormfiends, which are also comp'd heavily for good reason. However, get their fragile little bodies off the table, and you basically win the game (Unless you're one of those people who still place 1500 points in an infantry block in the current meta.. Then yeah, grey seers have a spell we have to constantly 6-dice to get off and screw the rest of the magic phase).

I do agree that Skaven could use a new codex rather than a handbook known as the "Skaven FAQ." However, Skaven are nowhere NEAR OP. And if they really are considered OP, then I can't imagine what other, more powerful armies are considered.

@scooterkid: Bravo man, bravo. I already mentioned all the things skaven lack. Not only that but i'm taking vampire counts tomorrow if at all possible which have almost no shooting except screams and have so much garbage it's ridiculous. Vampire counts have regeneration, killing blow, vampiric powers, armor, fast units, pretty much the only ethereal units in the game and more than one of em, monsters, buff wagons, lots of poisoned attacks, flaming attacks, plenty of high strength or armor avoiding attacks.

My point of taking vampire counts tomorrow and proxying with them is using a level 4 vampire general with the ability to re-roll one of the 2d6 dice for magic generation during winds of magic, 2 level one vampires with fly that hide in units and charge out to kill war machines, 2 mortis engines, grave guard, lots of zombies, possibly crypt horrors and some hexwraiths. I won't use end times and if he decides to use a bloodthirster i'll still probably win and force a unit of spammed zombies at it.

It is insulting and infuriating to hear all these 'skaven are OP' arguments when the same people claim warriors of chaos, all elf armies, shooting armies (dwarfs and empire), vampire counts and daemons of chaos aren't. One of the guys that said this runs mono nurgle with epidemius. I want to punch him in his soul.

Finally 13th is very specific. It effects infantry only meaning bretonnia and ogres will laugh it off. If you have heavy fast cavalry armies like elves can do then they'll just laugh off 13th's inability to hurt anything but infantry specifically. If an opponent has hordes like skaven or greenskins then they'll laugh it off. At least 13th doesn't kill characters in a unit unlike dwellers allowing them to jump from unit to unit (like BotWD). Cracks call isn't as bad as purple sun. Finally boo hoo you didn't take magic resistance on your elite units or expensive units. Whose fault is that?

Thank you for covering the bit on plague magic mostly being 12" range. Sure skaven spells are low to cast but what i wouldn't do to be able to boost my spells in power and/or range. Also to be a nice player i don't allow my boosts or hexes to be on more than one unit at a time or to stack which severely restricts me.

If people complain skaven are OP play the freaking army to find out and then shut up. Your opinion is usually copy/pasted from the internet anyway. Our heavy hitting units besides the abomination usually die easily and have frenzy or poor leadership (even stormfiends fit this rule). The much complained about skaven leadership is on our hordes which tend to not run away and you can only have slaves hold if the general is within 12" and 18" if they feel brave enough to run a seer on bell with the chance of losing him to cannonballs, miscasts, dwellers or pretty much anything (even the chaff wizard killers could kill him provided they get their somehow). Slaves have terrible leadership if you want to shoot into them and they need a general nearby if you want them to hold in combat for two turns.

Also i actually need more than one type of anti-large target killer (gutter runners have poisoned but it's only 10 str 3 poisoned attacks per ten and they cost an arm and a leg so they mostly just kill war machines). Warp lightning cannons and the doomwheel can kill units with toughness 6 or below regardless of armor but the doomwheel needs to get their and anything high toughness like cannons or a sphinx will just laugh it off. Most people have units that can kill monsters without much effort. Skaven's best shot is just spamming slaves into them and keeping the general close which usually hampers most of the armies already horrible maneuvering.

Anyway end rant as i'm tired of this.