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So with the new dex and the changes to the WK what are the relative power levels of his options?

As far as I can see the sun canon is now at the bottom as it got no buff and lost laser lock.

The wraith canons have been getting all the hate but are they that good? 2 shots with lots of invulns and cover out there sound like an object of fear rather than a reliable weapon (even with the 6 ignoring those). It looks like it performs well against vehicles though.

The sword seems to have dodged most of the hate by not being ranged D but it looks pretty decent as you are getting more D attacks and the invuln. But generally hitting on 4s not 3s and you can't twin link it.

So what do you think? I'm not nessisarily looking for the cheesiest set up, just wondering on their relative power.

I haven't gotten a chance to use my Wraithknight under the new rules yet (that'll have to wait for Saturday), for what it's worth.

But I think one of the things that makes the Wraithknight really powerful now is the fact that it can shoot at different targets.

Before, as an MC, it was firing both Wraithcannons at a single target. Now, it can split fire with the cannons and any shoulder mounted weapons.

Being Gargantuan also gives it FNP, making the Shield a little less necessary. But personally, I'm going to keep the Suncannon and Scattershield and Scatterlaser loadout my WK has. It can fire the scatter at a light vehicle or a target it wants to assault, while firing the Suncannon at infantry. Plus, I like to have the extra layer of protection against lascannons and powerfists.

What would be pretty scary is the two wraithcannons plus two starcannons loadout. It would spell the doom of any but the toughest creatures or vehicles out there.

My Knight will remain with his Wraithcannons. Ranged D is just too useful.

Two D shots are wasted against Infantry. Keep them for Vehicles and Monsters. In a pinch, fire them at flyers.

"My Wraithknight is shooting that flyer, and that flyer with his cannons. Are you jinking?"

Yeah it's 1/6, but he'll probably want to jink a D shot.

I'm stealing the diamond objective idea from the dark eldar and will be running two wraith knights with swords and scatter lasers. My plan is to run the knights into the middle of 3 or 4 objectives and bully the opponent away, making breathing room for the dark eldar and eldar.

I like a stock WK with double shuricannons. That way, I can shoot 2 vehicles with D, then shoot at closer targets that I want to charge.

I thought about doing Scatters, since they are the same cost with an extra shot, but really, Scatters are best on Bikes and less shots means less chance to deny myself the charge by killing too many models.

I think the Sword variant needs shoulder weapons to be truly effective.

I have been contemplating the same question. And it's a quandary I'm currently having in every list I have that includes one. Do I go double cannons and double scatter. Or do I go sword and shield and double scatter.

I think taking sword and shield will make less people whinge. It also gives me a better chance in combat against an imperial knight. But I'm wondering if I'm going for the cool factor of the sword and the fact that I never used it before. The 5++ is nice. People say it's not needed with FnP. But I disagree. Having the 5++ and FnP is essentially having a 5++ re rollable on him and therefore actually quite effective. Gives you a 0.66 chance of saving a wound rather than a 0.33. The sword would also wreck my friends riptides face....

....but here's my issue. The wraithknight is significantly more mobile now. I know an imperial knight can move 12" too, but it doesn't have the jump ability. So we can stay mostly out of his way. As for the riptide, he's quite maneuverable. But if we don't use our jump move in the movement phase we get to re roll our charge range. My knight used to lay the hurt on a riptide anyway, even with out the D sword. Which makes me lean towards cannons. I can engage 4 targets at once rather than 2. And there's that chance of popping the imperial knight, or smooshing the riptide before I get close to combat, meaning I can charge another unit and increasing my effectiveness...... But I lose that 5++.

Its definitely a tough call.

Something to keep in mind, no overwatch with the WK now. Nothing major, just something I feel many people will forget.

I'm going more and more toward sword or suncannon.
Ranged D can be picked up in 4 other flavors.
IMO, making a hard to kill wraith knight stupidly hard to kill is the answer.

With an assured 6" run, I'm kind of tempted to try a handful wraith lords. I think a melee wraith host would look awesome, though honestly, the wraithlord might be the only fairly costed unit in the whole damn codex.



I

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I have been contemplating the same question. And it's a quandary I'm currently having in every list I have that includes one. Do I go double cannons and double scatter. Or do I go sword and shield and double scatter.

I think taking sword and shield will make less people whinge. It also gives me a better chance in combat against an imperial knight. But I'm wondering if I'm going for the cool factor of the sword and the fact that I never used it before. The 5++ is nice. People say it's not needed with FnP. But I disagree. Having the 5++ and FnP is essentially having a 5++ re rollable on him and therefore actually quite effective. Gives you a 0.66 chance of saving a wound rather than a 0.33. The sword would also wreck my friends riptides face....

....but here's my issue. The wraithknight is significantly more mobile now. I know an imperial knight can move 12" too, but it doesn't have the jump ability. So we can stay mostly out of his way. As for the riptide, he's quite maneuverable. But if we don't use our jump move in the movement phase we get to re roll our charge range. My knight used to lay the hurt on a riptide anyway, even with out the D sword. Which makes me lean towards cannons. I can engage 4 targets at once rather than 2. And there's that chance of popping the imperial knight, or smooshing the riptide before I get close to combat, meaning I can charge another unit and increasing my effectiveness...... But I lose that 5++.

Its definitely a tough call.

Just being picky here, but its not a 66% chance. It is a 56% chance.

I'm going to use the Ghostglaive + Scattershield combo.

Ranged D has a tendency to get banned/nerfed at the local tournaments where I play. Also, I prefer to use the WK for melee and one of the main reasons I brought one to my DE army is to kill Imperial Knights and other Superheavies. With Init 5 and Str D in close combat he's going to wreck most things for sure.

5++ is another valuable benefit. Most of my army is made of paper mache, but then there's this large, killy monster that just doesn't die. People already tend to devote most of their firepower in futile attempts to bring it down quickly so my Raider gunboats are likely to not even require to Jink.

Now, if only I could find points to give it Scatter Lasers...

When compared to the Imperial Knights, the Wraithknight is very good but at one task. The Imperial Knights are more multi-functional.

For me, I'd build the rest of my force and then outfit the Wraithknight with whatever the Warhost lacked. In my case, I used to use the sun cannon but I'm now leaning towards the other two. Not really a me lee force so out of those two, I'm leaning towards two heavy wraithcannons.

I for one am thrilled that they are finally specced with the kind of stats they should have, now that they are JGCs. Having some force sword instant death my 10 story mech always pissed me off... They are now properly terrifying, not just visually so.

That said, I think I'll be dropping the Suncannon + SL builds I've been using... I think either Wraithcannons + 2 x suncannon or Sword/Shield + 2 x SL. Since he can now shoot weapons at other stuff it's finally worth having other things on there with the Wraithcannons, and he will turn into the ultimate anti-vehicle weapon with that combo.

Sword/shield + SL turns him into something that can comfortably take a unit off the table every turn. With his huge threat range, he can shoot up one unit while charging in and wiping out another (don't forget Stomp, and immunity to ID and effectively to poison). He can't be tarpitted by fearless mobs anymore, as we can (with Stomp, and his 8 S6 shots on the way in) easily wipe them out.

Just need to make sure I can fit him in - rules clarification there; since he's now a Lord of War, can he only be brought in as either a slot on his own (as LoW) and then as part of the Wraith formations? Can't bring 3 anymore just as Heavy Support?

majendie wrote:

Just need to make sure I can fit him in - rules clarification there; since he's now a Lord of War, can he only be brought in as either a slot on his own (as LoW) and then as part of the Wraith formations? Can't bring 3 anymore just as Heavy Support?

That is correct. And if you brought 3 you would have a very hard time finding an opponent willing to battle you as it is the most undercosted/overpowered unit I have seen in a long tme.

You can take three in a warhost as a wraith construct selection. Heck you can take 12 in that. But it's not 'friendly'.

I think just use one. You don't need more than one unless you're playing a big Apocalypse game. There's still a lot of nerd rage out there because of the codex update and while I think this is part of a general souping up of 7th Ed codices, this one happens to be one of the first so naturally stands out.

Trust me. Once they update the marines codex, which I'm sure will change to Adeptus Astartes, much of the rage will subside when they get all their new toys.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
I think just use one. You don't need more than one unless you're playing a big Apocalypse game. There's still a lot of nerd rage out there because of the codex update and while I think this is part of a general souping up of 7th Ed codices, this one happens to be one of the first so naturally stands out.

Trust me. Once they update the marines codex, which I'm sure will change to Adeptus Astartes, much of the rage will subside when they get all their new toys.

Haha. This exactly.

I see the sword and shield as much more useful since it costs the same, becomes even more survivable, much better in close combat, and actually better in shooting vs different types of targets.

It's just overall a lot better. Especially as ranged D can be taken elsewhere too. I just generally like to take the most points efficient choice at every slot.

I guess it would be a good idea to buy a scatter laser too, since it can split fire.

Indeed. Since the shoulder weapons can always fire, and can split fire at will, and have essentially unlimited arcs of fire, I can't see any reason to ever not take shoulder mounted guns, much like pintle-mounts on superheavy tanks.

At a minimum, you can always find something worth firing a pair of shuriken cannons at.

I agree that more than one is pretty overkill these days. Now that they're properly scary, and can't be sneakily one-shotted with instant death or poison weapons they can be treated as a proper Lord of War. Good thing I have 3....

But it's my favourite model to build; I have to keep stopping myself from buying more, just because I love making them...

Definitely always take shoulder weapons. It's the cheapest extra heavy weapon you can get, and very hard to take down compared to the other options available. And gives him a truly crazy amount of firepower to slam into a single unit if you have to - Imagine Suncannon + 2 x SL + charge including HoW and Stomp as well as 6 attacks... That's pretty much any unit in the game off the table in a single fairly terrifying explosion of violence...

So, for the most effective build, what are people leaving towards. I'm about to pick another one up, and I don't know whether to go sword and shield or dual cannons, both with lasers on top.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So, for the most effective build, what are people leaving towards. I'm about to pick another one up, and I don't know whether to go sword and shield or dual cannons, both with lasers on top.

Magnets

All three of mine are completely magnetised and can swap in and out any weapon/arm combination. Makes life a lot easier

I get that. But I'm talking competitive build lists. I'm thinking the cannons are the way to go. With shoulder lasers. But I love the idea of a scatter shield and I think the sword looks awesome. It also makes him a beast in combat, though he's already good at strength 10....i think it might be cannons for me.

Again, I reckon it's a role thing.

I see the options as -

Sword + SL = anti-infantry/assaulting vehicles/characters
Cannons + Starcannons = anti-vehicle
Suncannon + I dunno, SL, I guess? More anti-infantry but shooty rather than assaulty...

I think the sword plus SL is a very flexible build; can chew up one unit at range while obliterating another in assault, or can bring the pain to one single unit. Even with the cannons at StrD I'm not sure there's a good call for having them; I mean, they're awesome, and 2 shots @ D is a hell of a lot bigger than 2 shots @ 10 and OH YEAH wait you can shoot them at different targets... So you can melt two tanks a turn, potentially, and then hey pour the SLs into some more stuff, or use Starcannons to melt more tanks holy gak....

Split fire is crazy awesome. That's a *huge* benefit so something with the ability to rock that many weapons...

I'm still thinking sword + SLs though... Since it can move so far, getting it into assault with anything but a Knight+ is going to kill it, and it's going to seriously threaten even other titan-class stuff...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
5+ attacks at D vs 2 @ D but ranged... I'll take the sword I reckon...

Which is also cool.

Since the sword looks badass.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I get that. But I'm talking competitive build lists. I'm thinking the cannons are the way to go. With shoulder lasers. But I love the idea of a scatter shield and I think the sword looks awesome. It also makes him a beast in combat, though he's already good at strength 10....i think it might be cannons for me.

Magnets go even better with competitive lists. While looks don't.

majendie wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
5+ attacks at D vs 2 @ D but ranged... I'll take the sword I reckon...

Which is also cool.

Since the sword looks badass.

But... Its usually hitting on 4s instead of 3s at range and its harder to get rerolls on close combat where as the far seer and easily twin link the canons.

The knight may be underpointed but his own options are actually really well balanced!

Someone should run the math on a guided Knights D cannons vs a Knights close combat D weapon on the charge see which one hits the most.

Worth noting that the Ghostglaive has Mastercrafted USR, so there's an in-built re-roll on one To Hit roll in CC.

I've come up with a solution in the army building thread.... Just take a least one of each...

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Someone should run the math on a guided Knights D cannons vs a Knights close combat D weapon on the charge see which one hits the most.

The cannon guy has 2 shots, hits with 1.3, guides to 1.8 - this becomes 1.5 on the D table and is then reduced by whatever cover save. The issue is rolling so few dice is very random.

Mr Sword has 4 attacks (assuming no charge) hits with 2 (assuming on 4+) and rerolls to 2.5 - becomes just over 2 on the table. Again low dice count so very random.

The issue with the maths is that it doesn't account for cover for the cannons and actually getting into combat for the sword guy.

since I'm likely running wraithguard and wraithscthes, adding more D not necessary so suncannon works for me