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How does the striking scorpion shadowstrike rule work if an independent character without the rule joins the squad after the squad infiltrates without the character?

Shadowstrike:


I can see two ways this could be interpreted:

A: The unit gains the shrouded rule as soon as it infiltrates and this bonus can then be conferred to the character.

B: It is an ongoing effect, as soon as the whole squad no longer has the rule shrouded is lost.

While the IC becomes part of the unit when he joins it, he does not possess the rule himself - so I'd say the unit does not benefit from the rule.

Read shrouded. Only one model needs it.

The unit loses Shrouded when it makes an attack. We are not told that it loses Shrouded when joined by an IC. Therefore, the unit doesn't lose Shrouded when joined by an IC.

An odd rules interaction, to be sure, but such are the rules.

Fragile wrote:
Read shrouded. Only one model needs it.

I know, this is nothing to do with wording of the shrouded rule. The question is to do with the wording of shadowstrike, if the models in the squad keep the shrouded rule when a character joins them.

I'd say they keep it, the condition for the squad to acquire it has been met, as the unit consisted entirely of models with the rule when it infiltrated, at which point it acquired shrouded. I reckon it wasn't intended for other characters to benefit like this, but that does seem to be how it's been worded

roflmajog wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Read shrouded. Only one model needs it.

I know, this is nothing to do with wording of the shrouded rule. The question is to do with the wording of shadowstrike, if the models in the squad keep the shrouded rule when a character joins them.

The trigger for gaining the rule(shrouded) is the entire unit having shadowstrike and infiltrating, a non-shadowstrike model joining the unit after it has fulfilled the requirements to gain shrouded has no bearing on those requirements. Shrouded itself confers to the ic so the unit will keep shrouded until it makes any attacks.

The begining of the rule has the RAW answer.

Is the unit consisting entire of models with the shadowstrike rule if you join an IC to it that does not have shadowstrike?

If the answer is yes, then it benefits from shadowstrike- which gives a limited shrouded.

if the answer is no, then it does not benefit from shadowstrike- which gives a limited shrouded.

it does not matter what the wording of shrouded is, because the unit does not access to it at all if the answer is not yes, which in the case of an IC without shadowstrike joining the answer is no- as per shadow strike they cannot benefit.

blaktoof wrote:
The begining of the rule has the RAW answer.

Is the unit consisting entire of models with the shadowstrike rule if you join an IC to it that does not have shadowstrike?

If the answer is yes, then it benefits from shadowstrike- which gives a limited shrouded.

if the answer is no, then it does not benefit from shadowstrike- which gives a limited shrouded.

it does not matter what the wording of shrouded is, because the unit does not access to it at all if the answer is not yes, which in the case of an IC without shadowstrike joining the answer is no- as per shadow strike they cannot benefit.

That is true if you understand it as a continuous effect that keeps checking if everyone in the squad has shadowstrike.
However if you interpret it as a one off effect that activates as soon as you infiltrate then they would keep shrouded.

I apologize I misread the OP, I thought you were attaching an infiltrating IC to the unit.

You want to infiltrate the unit, then during the game move an IC within range to join.

If that is the case, then yes the unit would already be granted shrouded after infiltrating if the unit had only models with shadowstrike in it at the time they infiltrated.

as per shrouded an IC joined after the unit has shrouded, would benefit.

blaktoof wrote:
I apologize I misread the OP, I thought you were attaching an infiltrating IC to the unit.

You want to infiltrate the unit, then during the game move an IC within range to join.

If that is the case, then yes the unit would already be granted shrouded after infiltrating if the unit had only models with shadowstrike in it at the time they infiltrated.

as per shrouded an IC joined after the unit has shrouded, would benefit.

Same here, thought it was during infiltration.

If an IC joins, that does not have the rule, the entire unit loses it. Easy enough.

But, i have a different question.
If the unit shoots (also in Overwatch) or fights, they lose it.

Now, the charge is part of the Assault Phase, and the fight is too, and usually these things go by phase, and it reasons to say they shows themselves by charging and therefore lose it too in the charge part of the Assault phase.
Or
Because they haven't actually done the combat bit do they still have it and when they charge and are shot at with Overwatch can they still claim it to use their cover save ?

I would say no, because you giove away your position.

What are your thoughts ?

gabiballetje wrote:
If an IC joins, that does not have the rule, the entire unit loses it. Easy enough.

But, i have a different question.
If the unit shoots (also in Overwatch) or fights, they lose it.

Now, the charge is part of the Assault Phase, and the fight is too, and usually these things go by phase, and it reasons to say they shows themselves by charging and therefore lose it too in the charge part of the Assault phase.
Or
Because they haven't actually done the combat bit do they still have it and when they charge and are shot at with Overwatch can they still claim it to use their cover save ?

I would say no, because you giove away your position.

What are your thoughts ?

I think it has been established that they do get to keep shrouded if the IC joins the squad during the game as the part giving them shrouded activates while they are infiltrating and the part about losing shrouding says nothing about ICs.

Pretty sure they still get shrouded as they are charging as the rule says fights in a combat and as the fight subphase is after the charging subphase they haven't actually fought yet.

they get to keep shroud. he does not get to have shroud

per the IC rule

"Conversely, if an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of an ongoing effect (or joins a unit after himself having been the target of an ongoing effect) benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared."

though that does not really matter much as you use the majority save.

Steel angel read the shrouded rule, only one model needs to have it then the entire squad counts as having shrouded at least until the model with the rule is removed. He doesn't gain the shrouded rule himself, but for as long as he is in the squad he can use it.

Its not that one model with shroud shares it with the other members of the unit, its that the benefit from a single model having shroud is observed by the unit and not the model. In the situation in the original post, assuming the 1st unit was a 5 man squad. You would end up with a 6 man squad where one models shrouded rule is effective and 4 other models would have the shrouded rule and not be effective while the final model, the IC would not have shrouded. While the IC is part of that unit he will observe a benefit from another model in the unit having shrouded.

roflmajog wrote:
Steel angel read the shrouded rule, only one model needs to have it then the entire squad counts as having shrouded at least until the model with the rule is removed. He doesn't gain the shrouded rule himself, but for as long as he is in the squad he can use it.

I know what the shrouded rule saids. Just as the IC rules saids " an Independent Character joins a unit after that unit has been the target of an ongoing effect benefits and penalties from that effect are not shared."


But again it does not matter being as you use the majority save. it would only matter with a Precision shot.

It's an odd rules interpretation, but it works. I don't see how it could come up very often though.

If the Striking Scorpions Infiltrate, and everyone in the unit has "Shadowstrike" when they do, then they get Shrouded. So as long as you do NOT deploy an IC with the unit when it infiltrates, then the Striking Scorpions start the game with their Shrouded ability.

After that, say turn 1 you move a Wave Serpent up 6", and you disembark a Farseer or an Autarch from the Wave Serpent, and it joins the squad of Striking Scorpions.

The Striking Scorpions successfully received their "Shrouded" special rule at the start of the game. Now, being joined by the Autarch, they confer Shrouded to him, and the Autarch doesn't do anything to remove the Shadowstrike ability from the Striking Scorpions.

I don't think you could do anything during deployment, but once the game starts, then I think it'd work just fine.

Steel Angel wrote:
But again it does not matter being as you use the majority save. it would only matter with a Precision shot.

This is actually incorrect. Saves are made on a model-by-model basis (eg. only the models that are actually obscured by terrain can make a cover save using that terrain. Unobscured models in the same unit cannot use that cover save). Can you find a spot in the rulebook that says majority saves are used?

Elric is correct that you do not use a majority save, but have a look at the shrouded rule. It states that even 1 model in the unit with that rule allows the whole unit to benefit(this countermands the ic clarification that ics do not gain the units rules)