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There is a bit of a fuss at our local store. One fellow who plays Guard wants to buy auto cannons from Imperial Armor 2 and run them on his Imperial Guard (Astra Militarum) chimeras. I don't think this is allowed ,unless the game has changed alot since I have last played. Could someone help me out here as I am playing him tonight And would like to know the correct answer. I am asking here as Him nor I have IA2 and he does not even have the codex. He pirates everything then never brings them lol. Any help given will be greatly appreciated! vehicles

I have a friend who also plays IA2. It's important to remember that the Imperial Armour 2 is a separate "codex" than the astra militarium codex, and you cannot buy the upgrades from one codex to another without fully committing to that codex.

He can certainly buy his entire army from IA2 using IA2's rules and price costs, but not individual pieces of it.

I suggest using battlescribe (an army builder program) to help understand what is legal in battleforged armies - it's helped me lots.

edit: good luck in your game!

that is exactly what I told them, but was informed I was wrong . Now I have it in black and white. Thank you very much.

There is a lot of miss-information in r-factor's post.

OK. So in 7th edition, if you are playing with a battle forged list then all of your units are in detachments. What can or cannot be in a detachment depends on the detachments. The detachment you are likely the most familiar with it the 'Combined Arms Detachment." This detachment allows you to include units that all share the same faction. Astra Miliatium is the new 'guard' faction name. Now its important to note that the units you use don't all have to be published in the same book. Games Workshop could come out with a new astra miliatium unit in a white dwarf and you could use that and the ones on the codex in the same detachment because they have the same faction. If you allow forge world units in your games its no different. A forge world unit can be used in the same detachment as a non forge world unit as long as they both meet the detachments requirements.

You can't buy an upgrade for a unit if that unit does not have that upgrade, no matter how similar the units are, so r-facotr's 1st point is correct.

you can buy your units from two different books or codices depending on the detachment you are buying them for and what those units are. For example I can have a Chaplain Dreadnought as an elite choice in my allied detachment of dark angels lead by Belial, even though Belial and chaplain dreadnoughts are from two different books. So r-facotrs second point is flawed.

battlescribe is OK, but should never be relied on. It contains numerous errors and the more obscure the book it references the more likely the information is out of date.

Now, to my knowledge there are zero astra milliatium units in IA2.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Now, to my knowledge there are zero astra milliatium units in IA2.

That is absolutely correct. IA2 is the War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes, not the IG book.

DJGietzen i dont have the book in fromt of me but if I am not mistaken(or thinking of the wrong book entirely) the unit entries in the IA2 book are not part of the Astra Militarum per se. They are part of the Armored Battle Company. ABC comes complete with its own named characters, warlord traits, rules, and all.

If I'm wrong please correct me. Like I said I do not have the book in front of me at the time to double check my memory.

 DJGietzen wrote:

you can buy your units from two different books or codices depending on the detachment you are buying them for and what those units are. For example I can have a Chaplain Dreadnought as an elite choice in my allied detachment of dark angels lead by Belial, even though Belial and chaplain dreadnoughts are from two different books. So r-facotrs second point is flawed.

battlescribe is OK, but should never be relied on. It contains numerous errors and the more obscure the book it references the more likely the information is out of date.

Now, to my knowledge there are zero astra milliatium units in IA2.

Yes, you are correct Gietzen, you can certainly take a second detachment of IA2 with a detachment of AM. I see now how my post talking about "entire armies" could be viewed incorrectly. And while battlescribe maybe shouldn't be taken as gospel, it does handle stuff like this pretty well I've found

Some of the units in IA1 may be taken as additional heavy / elite etc choices for an Imperial Guard army, so it is entirely possible to have autocannon chimera as part of AM, if the IA1 entry allows it (baarring arguments over the IG -> AM name change, of course)

lots of nonsense in here, the autocannon and twin heavy bolter are upgrades to the imperial guard chimera not part of an alternative army list, though they do apear in the tank company list too, so yes he can purchase them for his chimeras, whether you allow FW is a different argument entirely

Alright, let's keep this simple. It's Imperial Armour 1, not 2. Helps to look at the right book. The Chimera presented in the book (pg. 64 for those of us following at home) are a dedicated transport option for Imperial Guard. Read that as Astra Militarum now. Autocannons and Twin Linked Bolters are absolutely allowed.

Never rely on Battlescribe. Just look at the book you need and the FAQs that are relevant. It is a REFERENCE, not a substitution for a rulebook. It's your substitution for a pen and paper to write the list down.

r-factor wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

you can buy your units from two different books or codices depending on the detachment you are buying them for and what those units are. For example I can have a Chaplain Dreadnought as an elite choice in my allied detachment of dark angels lead by Belial, even though Belial and chaplain dreadnoughts are from two different books. So r-facotrs second point is flawed.

battlescribe is OK, but should never be relied on. It contains numerous errors and the more obscure the book it references the more likely the information is out of date.

Now, to my knowledge there are zero astra milliatium units in IA2.

Yes, you are correct Gietzen, you can certainly take a second detachment of IA2 with a detachment of AM. I see now how my post talking about "entire armies" could be viewed incorrectly. And while battlescribe maybe shouldn't be taken as gospel, it does handle stuff like this pretty well I've found

r-factor, you've missed the message again. OK, so lets say he is being a CAD detachment. The only restriction there is that all the units in the detachment come from the same faction. Faction does not equal book. If he was building a space marine army he could include, in the same CAD detachment, a storm eagle and a storm talon. He can do this because they have the same faction even though they are not from the same book.

The only potential rub here, assuming you are allowing forge-world units in your game, is that IA1 was printed before the codex. When the codex was printed the name of the faction was changed and the forge-world book did not get an FAq to update the faction name. Now most players recognize them as one faction, but there is a minority that will insist that "Imperial Guard" is one faction and "Astra Milliatium" is a different faction.

Now, if you allow forge world units, and you assume that imperial guard and astra millitarium as the same faction, it sounds like what the OP's opponent is doing is perfectly legal.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Alright, let's keep this simple. It's Imperial Armour 1, not 2. Helps to look at the right book. The Chimera presented in the book (pg. 64 for those of us following at home) are a dedicated transport option for Imperial Guard. Read that as Astra Militarum now.

Unless otherwise updated in an FAQ or stated elsewhere, you do not read "Imperial Guard" as Astra Militarum. That would be like reading Codex: Craftworlds as Codex: Eldar which would allow for Iyanden to be used (when currently it's not a legal codex supplement). Forgeworld will update things like this to allow them to be used for other books IF they want them to be. IE: If Forgeworld wants the IA units for Eldar to be used in the new codex (like hornets etc) they will update it. So if these IG units in IA1 are not FAQ'd to be usuable in AM then you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloads/product/pdf/i/IA12ndEdFAQ_Errata_v2.pdf

I don't see an update here allowing IG units to be taken with AM. If I am wrong about AM counting any IG unit as AM let me know.

 Whacked wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Alright, let's keep this simple. It's Imperial Armour 1, not 2. Helps to look at the right book. The Chimera presented in the book (pg. 64 for those of us following at home) are a dedicated transport option for Imperial Guard. Read that as Astra Militarum now.

Unless otherwise updated in an FAQ or stated elsewhere, you do not read "Imperial Guard" as Astra Militarum. That would be like reading Codex: Craftworlds as Codex: Eldar which would allow for Iyanden to be used (when currently it's not a legal codex supplement). Forgeworld will update things like this to allow them to be used for other books IF they want them to be. IE: If Forgeworld wants the IA units for Eldar to be used in the new codex (like hornets etc) they will update it. So if these IG units in IA1 are not FAQ'd to be usuable in AM then you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloads/product/pdf/i/IA12ndEdFAQ_Errata_v2.pdf

I don't see an update here allowing IG units to be taken with AM. If I am wrong about AM counting any IG unit as AM let me know.

Codex:AM first page of astra militarum right after the introduction page, firt paragraph, first sentence(the bold text): "The Astra Militarum, also known as the Imperial Guard, is the largest coherent fighting force in the galaxy."

It then continues to refer to them as the imperial guard throughout.

Yes, codex:AM is exactly the same as Codex IG.

As to your assertion that codex: craftworld Eldar is not the same as Codex: Eldar and thus invalidating Iyandan; that is also false(and laughably so) there is nothing in the Iyandan supplement that does not work with Codex: Craftworld Eldar and only a TFG would deny its use, don't be TFG.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Whacked wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Alright, let's keep this simple. It's Imperial Armour 1, not 2. Helps to look at the right book. The Chimera presented in the book (pg. 64 for those of us following at home) are a dedicated transport option for Imperial Guard. Read that as Astra Militarum now.

Unless otherwise updated in an FAQ or stated elsewhere, you do not read "Imperial Guard" as Astra Militarum. That would be like reading Codex: Craftworlds as Codex: Eldar which would allow for Iyanden to be used (when currently it's not a legal codex supplement). Forgeworld will update things like this to allow them to be used for other books IF they want them to be. IE: If Forgeworld wants the IA units for Eldar to be used in the new codex (like hornets etc) they will update it. So if these IG units in IA1 are not FAQ'd to be usuable in AM then you are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/downloads/product/pdf/i/IA12ndEdFAQ_Errata_v2.pdf

I don't see an update here allowing IG units to be taken with AM. If I am wrong about AM counting any IG unit as AM let me know.

Codex:AM first page of astra militarum right after the introduction page, firt paragraph, first sentence(the bold text): "The Astra Militarum, also known as the Imperial Guard, is the largest coherent fighting force in the galaxy."

It then continues to refer to them as the imperial guard throughout.

Yes, codex:AM is exactly the same as Codex IG.

As to your assertion that codex: craftworld Eldar is not the same as Codex: Eldar and thus invalidating Iyandan; that is also false(and laughably so) there is nothing in the Iyandan supplement that does not work with Codex: Craftworld Eldar and only a TFG would deny its use, don't be TFG.

Iyandan was not designed to work with Craftworlds:

"Apologies for the delay in replying I have been waiting for a answer from our games designers.
The Supplement Ilyanden was meant to go with the Older Eldar Codex and thus was not really designed for the new codex.
However feel free to adapt the rules if you wish in order to keep using it in games."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I didn't claim to know whether AM was considered IG, it's just not typical.

Druid13 wrote:
DJGietzen i dont have the book in fromt of me but if I am not mistaken(or thinking of the wrong book entirely) the unit entries in the IA2 book are not part of the Astra Militarum per se. They are part of the Armored Battle Company. ABC comes complete with its own named characters, warlord traits, rules, and all.

If I'm wrong please correct me. Like I said I do not have the book in front of me at the time to double check my memory.

You're wrong. IA1 has two separate sets of units:

1) Additional units for Codex:IG (now faction:AM) armies. Each unit has its own page, and a note saying "may be taken as a {FOC slot} choice in a Codex:IG army". For example, the Salamander scout tank is a fast attack choice for IG armies. Because these are just single units there is no FOC/warlord table/etc, you just add them into your existing IG/AM detachment.

2) A separate Armored Battlegroup army list. This is a "codex" that you can build an army from, and contains some (though not all) of the units in the first section of the book, just like various marine armies all have tactical squads.

Think of these as two different rulebooks that happen to be glued together. The rules in one half have nothing to do with the rules in the other half.

So, By that thinking, I can buy Guns in the FW books for my marines, that they do not have in the Codex because they are the same army? I am looking for a Solid rule ina book saying yes or no. I am not looking for folk's opinions or this and that, And for those saying you can, Could you please direct em to which Rulebook I can find it in? this has turned into a huge war in our local shop,and it is getting quite stupid. The kid that plays it refuses to even buy any of the rule books to begin with as he can "pirate" them for free..and yet argues that IC cannot join units lol. (getting back on track) if I could atleast be directed as to what Book it says, or does not say you can do this I would appreciate it. thank you.



Sory for the long time between making the thread and My reply. i work over the road.

 ScurvyMic wrote:
So, By that thinking, I can buy Guns in the FW books for my marines, that they do not have in the Codex because they are the same army?

That depends on the rules. If you want an answer you'll need to give some specific marine units.

The kid that plays it refuses to even buy any of the rule books to begin with as he can "pirate" them for free..

Then stop letting him play until he brings legal copies of all of his rules. You've created this problem for yourself by letting him say whatever he wants about his rules and trusting him to get it right. And the fact that he's openly pirating all of his rules should get the store owner to kick him out.

"Bring a copy of all the books you are using" might be a house rule, but it is practically a universal house rule.

For the tanks, if he wants to take it, it (1) needs to be a legal option for his list and (2) needs to be a legal unit selection on its own.

The first has been covered above.

What I mean by the second is this:
The Hornet is a (beautiful) Forgeworld model, that can purchase 2 Heavy weapons. Most of the options are the same as a Vyper or Falcon (closest Codex analogs). However, the Hornet can add Pulse Lasers for heavy weapons.

I can take a Hornet with Pulse Lasers for heavy weapons as CW Eldar (or Corsairs), but I can't add a Pulse Laser to a Vyper, or a second one to a Falcon. It being an option for the Hornet, despite being the same class of options, does not make it an option for other vehicles (unless explicitly permitted).

(Side note - a Hornet with Pulse Lasers looks absolutely fantastic - the long barrels really sell it. Its too bad its so broken!)

Scurvy - as noted, you made your own rod there.

The rules in IA1 are very clear as to which units can be taken in a "normal" AM / IG army, as selections in their own right. THese rulebooks carry preciisely the same weight, ruelswise, as a codex.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Alright, let's keep this simple. It's Imperial Armour 1, not 2. Helps to look at the right book. The Chimera presented in the book (pg. 64 for those of us following at home) are a dedicated transport option for Imperial Guard. Read that as Astra Militarum now. Autocannons and Twin Linked Bolters are absolutely allowed.

Totally agree with this. I think I'd always be happy with an opponent using fw vehicles/units/upgrades in their lists, particularly IG/AM armour variants and the like. Rule of cool and all that.

However, specifically on the Chimera question... Which points value would you use in this situation? The AM book chimera cost with the 5pt autocannon, or does the whole vehicle, coming from IA1, use IA1 points cost?

Just asking out of interest. It's not something I would argue over, but wondered what your opinion would be? There's nothing really stopping you (apart from politeness maybe) from replacing all your Codex AM Chimeras with the cheaper IA1 chimeras surely?

Unless the price has been FAQd and I don't know about it.

I have not made this mess lol. My store has. We as a group have a house rule to at least buy the rule book for the game, and whatever army you are playing. We have had that for years. NOW the owner and the guy who "runs" our gaming group want bodies in the store so bad they told us we cannot tell people what they can and cannot have lol. I have told this person I refuse to play him until he gets all the proper tools of the game and LEARN it. However, I am being labeled as a "That guy" because I want to play by the rules, and that really is all i want. If it says in the rule book it is allowed, then I will shut up, apologize and say have fun, if Not I would like to know where to find it so I can say I TOLD YOU SO lol. It has gotten very bad at our shop lately, to where the more competitive players (myself and another feller) are expected to tow the line on rules, Which is 100% fine with me, why else play the game then. yet everyone else says "meh, whatever works" I am just trying to find a end to this stupid situation is all,it has turned my local store into a pit of Passive aggressive mumblings and attitudes and I am quite sick of it. I apologize If i did not word my first two posts correctly. I do appreciate the feedback here. Thanks again guys.

The profile in the IA book can be used instead of the chimera profile in the IG codex.

You can mix and match in an army all you like, there is noting to stop you doing so, however it might get confusing as there are different rules regarding firepoints and the lasgun arrays.

Some of the point values are different, as are weapon choices.

Some people may consider mixing and matching from IG books to be unsporting or even a TFG move.

However, until GW produces more clear rules regarding which books are up to date, using both books is perfectly valid.

So it is 100% legal to buy a autocannon from IA Book1 V.2 for a Chimera, and buy the Chimera from the IG codex ? I just found a copy of IA1 v2 and Downloaded it for the simple reason of finding in the book where it says you can do this.

 ScurvyMic wrote:
So it is 100% legal to buy a autocannon from IA Book1 V.2 for a Chimera, and buy the Chimera from the IG codex ? I just found a copy of IA1 v2 and Downloaded it for the simple reason of finding in the book where it says you can do this.

No.

You either use one profile, or another.

IG codex and its weapon options.

or IA and its points and weapon options.