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I have the Dark Vengeance CSM army, and I have 9 plague marines coming in the mail. I like the models, etc. However, I see everyone complaining about how bad CSM is doing compared to others? I've looked at Necrons, and I love their models. Is it worth continuing with CSM/Daemons?

Do you enjoy playing them?

 Purifier wrote:
Do you enjoy playing them?

I've only played two games against my brother - first two games I've played.

Allying with daemons does help a lot. Can get more bang for your buck if you go with the Crimson Sluaghter Supplement for prophet of voices on a sorcerer to do some daemon farming.

CSM and Daemons are both poor standalone Codexes, but they plug each others' weaknesses quite well. It's absolutely worth continuing if you're going to play a combined army, probably not if you want to stick to just one or the other.


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(Another fun Daemon-farming trick is Kasyr Lutien, it's a Legacy of Ruin from IA13 that gives rerolls on summoning attempts within 12" of the vehicle. Stick that on a big high-hull-point firebase vehicle (LR, Typhon...) and park it in the middle of some Heralds, and go to town.)

I completely disagree with Daemons being a poor standalone codex. It is very capable and is able to run a variety of different builds and remain competitive.

CM.......not so great.

They are best used with other allies to make up for their outdated codex.

When people say they aren't good, they're referring to tournament play where optimised armies are to be expected. For gaming at a club or store, against non-competitive armies, they should be just fine.

At the end of the day, if you like the look, feel, style or back story of the army, there's no reason not to play it!

 Paradigm wrote:
When people say they aren't good, they're referring to tournament play where optimised armies are to be expected. For gaming at a club or store, against non-competitive armies, they should be just fine.

At the end of the day, if you like the look, feel, style or back story of the army, there's no reason not to play it!

I couldn't agree more. Chaos has some wonderful models, and they get regular additions. There is also nothing wrong with Codex CSM -- it just doesn't have the dumbed-down list creation, where there are few options with each unit, or obvious choices for what is best in the favorite "power codex" factions.

If you like the flavour and fluff, then you should also look at forgeworld. Imperial Armour 13, Armies of the lost and the damned.

Do NOT go straight for forgeworld from the get go. They're too expensive for that. But if you decide to stick with CSM, they become a lot better with that book and you get some really cool models. That said. they're perfectly fine for friendly games, even without FW.

The good thing about them right now is, You can use the models in 3 different armies atm, maybe more if they bring out more daemonkin books. Dawmons could be used with every book if you like summoning.

As much as I hate GW's treatment of Chaos, I will continue to play CSM as my main army. And I still enjoy them. Another advantage of csm is that you can get fairly good value in the dark vengance boxes, unlike all those web bundles that don't save save you a penny.

I'd say, play a few more games and don't be afraid to use models (or whatever fits the model's size the closest) to try out units/models before you consider buying them. Get a feel for the army and then you can still go and buy the necron codex and try a few games with your chaos models as 'counts as' and see how they work out for you.



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Just don't go changing armies based on what people cry about.
It's your army. If you like them, you'll have fun, whether you win or not.

If you're looking to expand your army I'd suggest trying to avoid CSM for the time being. While there are no solid rumors to indicate anything substantial is coming for CSM in the future, a lot of their models are quite old. At least with demons most of the models (especially if they come in plastic) have come out within the last 2-5 years. CSM I would hope is due for an update for everything but their demon engines.

Another thing to keep in mind with CSM is that there are a lot of rumors pointing toward a 30k/Horus Heresy game being covered by GW proper. Since it's almost a sure thing at this point, I'd wait for that to see what the models look like. It may be a great way to really flesh out the marine aspect of your CSM list.

Nvs wrote:
If you're looking to expand your army I'd suggest trying to avoid CSM for the time being. While there are no solid rumors to indicate anything substantial is coming for CSM in the future, a lot of their models are quite old. At least with demons most of the models (especially if they come in plastic) have come out within the last 2-5 years. CSM I would hope is due for an update for everything but their demon engines.

Another thing to keep in mind with CSM is that there are a lot of rumors pointing toward a 30k/Horus Heresy game being covered by GW proper. Since it's almost a sure thing at this point, I'd wait for that to see what the models look like. It may be a great way to really flesh out the marine aspect of your CSM list.

Is Necrons/Orks a safer pick money wise? What abot regular Space Marines?

What do you mean a safer pick for money? Every army will end up costing a lot of money in the long run.

Necrons are powerful, but the poweful builds cost a lot of money. Orks, you end up spending a lot of lots of boys and trukks. Space marines, you end up spending a lot on EVERYTHING because they have so many decent options.

If you don't care for building/painting, you can always buy second hand armies.

CSM can be good but you want to be careful what you buy. If you have DV and 9 plague marines then the next thing you want to buy is 2 rhinos and a blister of 5 plasma guns.

Convert a DV marine into a plague marine and run 2 squads of 5 plague marines with 2 plasma guns in each. That fulfulls your troops choices so that you can take the cultists and hellbrute as a Hellcult (cultists get fearless, hellbrute gets 3+ cover save when cultists are nearby - see hellbrutes dataslate).

This turns your existing models from a ramshackle bunch of 'get pwned in the face' into something thats got a bit more punch and staying power.

Then get a nurgle PF+LC lord on a bike with 5 chaos spawn (the best unit in the codex).

CSM are good but you need to field them a certain way.

Necrons are probably the cheapest of the armies you have listed here.

CSM are reasonably priced for the DV stuff but a lot of their models are still finecast and most of their best and most interesting units are expensive.

Orks is a huge financial and/or time commitment. Any horde style army always is due to the sheer number of models. However if you want to do a lot of conversions and are clever Orks is an army that can be very cheap to make if you spend the time to convert all the expensive stuff yourself.

As for the army you should play. Just choose what you like the playstyle, fluff, and aesthetic. If you choose them based on which makes the strongest force for your first army you will just be disappointed in 6 months when a supplement or army release changes everything. Save choosing your army based on power level for either a 2nd army or once you start playing in GTs.

 Ivara1 wrote:
I have the Dark Vengeance CSM army, and I have 9 plague marines coming in the mail. I like the models, etc. However, I see everyone complaining about how bad CSM is doing compared to others? I've looked at Necrons, and I love their models. Is it worth continuing with CSM/Daemons?

Have you ever tried other games? Because if your looking to be 'competitive' 40k is in a... weird place right now. Arguably always has been but especially right now.

Play this game for the fluff and models, and play other games if you care about how strong your army is.

Orks is a huge financial and/or time commitment. Any horde style army always is due to the sheer number of models. However if you want to do a lot of conversions and are clever Orks is an army that can be very cheap to make if you spend the time to convert all the expensive stuff yourself.

It very much takes a certain kind of player to run Orks. As OP's first post was "are chaos or necrons good" and not "WAAAAGH" I kind of doubt its the right army for him

 Dakkamite wrote:

 Ivara1 wrote:
I have the Dark Vengeance CSM army, and I have 9 plague marines coming in the mail. I like the models, etc. However, I see everyone complaining about how bad CSM is doing compared to others? I've looked at Necrons, and I love their models. Is it worth continuing with CSM/Daemons?

Have you ever tried other games? Because if your looking to be 'competitive' 40k is in a... weird place right now. Arguably always has been but especially right now.

Play this game for the fluff and models, and play other games if you care about how strong your army is.

Orks is a huge financial and/or time commitment. Any horde style army always is due to the sheer number of models. However if you want to do a lot of conversions and are clever Orks is an army that can be very cheap to make if you spend the time to convert all the expensive stuff yourself.

It very much takes a certain kind of player to run Orks. As OP's first post was "are chaos or necrons good" and not "WAAAAGH" I kind of doubt its the right army for him

I used to collect the models when I was younger, so I won't play another game. I love the models, and all the other things. It's firstly now that I've tried to play with them. I never thought that I was gonna settle with CSM. I just bought the Dark Vengeance box to get a good start point in 40k. I'll probably end up with Necrons or something.

Eldar looks cool, and so does Adeptus Mechanicus. I won't buy Mechanicus since they don't have HQ's though.

 Dakkamite wrote:
It very much takes a certain kind of player to run Orks. As OP's first post was "are chaos or necrons good" and not "WAAAAGH" I kind of doubt its the right army for him

See I always thought it was all the hours painting green on 100's to 1000's of ork models that did it to them.

Ignore the so-called "Internet Wisdom" bs and play what you like the look of most & want to build/paint... If you like the looks of Chaos Marines & Daemons, then go Chaos.

There's honestly nothing worse than picking an army based solely on what some screen names on an internet forum say is the current FotM hotness, dropping $300-400 on plastic toys, and then finding out you absolutely hate those models and/or how the army functions on the table.

Never, ever, pick your army based on their codex's perceived strength. Play who you like playing based on how they play, the fluff, the miniatures themselves, convertability, and the paintjob.

If you like CSM, go for CSMs. If you like Necrons, get Necrons There's no problem collecting two armies!

Not eventually, but I'd stick with collecting one (you like) first before branching off. And then going the polar opposite for the other

Two armies is nice though, you get to keep the other fresh. It's nice to sometimes get some variation.

Yes I definitely think it is. CSM and Daemon work really well together. Keep it simple to start with by getting Rhinos for your plague marines and chosen followed by one or two heavy hitting units like a Forgefiend or Obliterators for some long range shooting. From personal experience against CSM's, Obliterators can be tough to shift and have brutal firepower against both infantry and tanks.

If CSM is supposedly a weak codex compared to others then it will make you a better player for mastering them rather than trying to go for the so called easy armies. I'd say go for it, they really are not as bad as a lot of people make out and if you like the models, fluff and rules for them then you'd be mad not to play them.

Also, Nurgle biker lord with chaos spawn absolutely rocks!

I just want to add that I wasn't advising not playing Chaos Space Marines. I was merely saying the models are a questionable investment at this time because of their age. I would say the same thing about Eldar aspects.

As for Necron in particular, they're quite safe. Their entire model line was just recently updated and is mostly in plastic.

But as others have said, don't just choose an army because of their current standing rules wise. You should find the one you like the look of and the background for and play that. You will have a lot more fun in the long run even if you lose a lot because of questionable rules.

Just be mindful of models that are getting up there in age. GW seems to have shifted gears and is releasing stuff at a much faster pace than we've ever seen before.

I don't quite agree with the investment thing but I understand where your coming from.

Since I saw you already got some plague marines, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you like nurgle. In that case especially, models won't matter much, there is soooo much potential for conversions, that aren't very difficult, but achieve great results none the less.

But as has been said many times, go with what attracts you the most. You won't regret buying anything and unless your intent is to win every tournament, you can make any army work over time. In order to enjoy 40k you have to aim for fun and not take it too seriously imho. More than other tabletop games, this is really a hobby and not just a game.


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So again, to answer your inital question. CSM mixed with daemons or otherwise is most certainly not bad. Although I personally don't much like the army list the dark vengeance kit comes with.

I think CSM and stuff is fine in a more casual setting honestly.

The second you go against Full ham maximum cheese no holds barred lists that you generally have the fun forcibly removed from your sphincter

Necrons can fill the competitive side of your hobby life wonderfully.

The casual side can be CSM. but if money is an issue that you have to only choose 1 army, pick the one you like looking at the most.

If you like the look of CSM, stick with them. I've been an ork player ever since I started playing 40K. They've never been the strongest army and they aren't the cheapest to collect, but I have no regrets.

I live for da Waaagh!