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So, I want to start spamming this squad just to clog my table with bodies and have rhinos to screen other advancing models.

What do you guys think the best loadout is? Tri melta? Is plasma worth it at all to shoot while advancing in the rhinos or to get up to 6 plasma shots the turn they jump out of the rhino? How about triple flamers? That's a decent amount of wall of death for when they invariably get charged.

What do you guys think?

Yes, Blood Angels assault squads can take rhinos, they get them for free making them an absurd bargain for 5 man squads. You're either paying 15 points for a rhino, or the guys it's carrying cost 8 pionts each, depending on how you want to look at it.
That's not a perfect analogy, because that's comparing assault marines to 14 point tactical marines, who have worse wargear (generally), but count as troops, and that's also not making full use of the rhino, since you're basically paying 45 points for a vehicle that can carry ten dudes.

It's still not bad for just getting boots on the ground, if you're following a boys before toys approach to the game, and two cheap rhinos like this would be great for screening jump pack units for a turn while they advance.
Shoot forward 12-24" and pop smoke, baby!

I've had not-suprisingly terrible results using tactical marines in rhinos and razorbacks, so unless I'm using a CAD and really want some obsec fast vehicles, I'm never doing that again.
Triple flamer tactical squads in a drop pod with a missile pod, melee scouts in a storm raven, and scout snipers w/ camo are the only troops I'm bothering with at this point.

Blood Angels assault squads also get two special weapons, even if they're five man, and the sergeants can either take a combi-weapon, 1 or 2 hand flamers / inferno pistols / plasma pistols, depending on how many points you want to spend / whether you want that extra melee attack or not.

Well, I'm gonna try using two rhinos, no upgrades. The extra storm bolter is tempting, since they're fast they can move 12" and shoot both, but since their purpose is to move up, screen units and dump dudes, they'll either be turbo boosting, blowing smoke, or moving 6" and dropping guys. Not springing for extra bolters unless I have 5 pts to spare.

As for the squads, I'll try two meltas each, and then one serg w/ an inferno / ccw, and one serg w/ a plasma pistol / ccw.

I'll see if I feel like flamers would ever come in handy with them after a couple of games...

anyway, thanks y'all

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Melta guns all the way. 5 assault marines with 2 melta guns in a rhino is 105 points. And the rhino is fast. Its a steal.

It's adequate. It's still 5 foot sloggers with an AV 11 ride in 7th ed.

Ahhh Martel, my favorite person to actually talk shop with on a competitive level.

The thing is, adequate is all I'm ever going to get with even the best loadout possible, because nothing in the dex comes even close to Eldar. Whattaya gonna do tho, literally the entire rest of the game is in the same boat.

The thing is nobody in my area plays eldar atm. One guy took one look at the new dex and traded in his entire eldar army realizing nobody would ever play him.

Anyway, just to address a few of the other things that have been said here, I have plenty of assault marines with jump packs and meltas and flamers. They were a staple with the last dex, obvs, but they don't see as much use for me these days, also for obvious reasons. Yeah, they're good on the deep strike, in theory, but I roll abysmally with my scatter die, even with all the blood angel advantages I get, so I don't like relying on that too much.

You can just run them up the field, but then you NEED to screen them with something, because unless there's lot's of LOS blocking terrain, they will absolutely get shot to pieces.

Advancing them up behind rhinos works alright. The rhinos WILL die, one or two turns in, or if you're lucky, once there some hand to hand combat going they can zip off and help seize some points.

This, as far as I can tell, is about the only way they're remotely useful.

The question is, then, what to put in them. I've had horrible results with tacticals. A full ten man squad in a rhino is a gigantic point sink for something that is terrible. I've had decent results with loading my tacticals up with triple flamers and sticking them in a drop pod with missiles to harass the back of my opponents deployment zone, so that's all I'm using my tacticals for at this point.

So now we come to assault squads with their sweet discount.

A 5 man assault squad with 1 melta and a dual pistol sergeant in a heavy bolter razorback was an absolute staple of my last codex lists. It was great in <1000 pt games, and even in bigger games was useful for screening jump pack guys and maybe zipping off to help control a point (units like that can sometimes get ignored in big games). Also the guys inside would actually make it to hand to hand a surprising amount.

Comparing that squad to the current 5 man assault squad in a rhino, the new squad is a little cheaper, loses some firepower from the APC, but gains some firepower to the squad. I see no reason it won't work just as well now.

Not a game changer by any means, but it's about as cheap as a marine unit gets, and I can't think of a better way to screen a squad of jump pack death company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

I've actually been changing my mind about that recently. The +1 init is not often worth being able to just ignore some enemy units. It's hard to say. They are both flawed in the hands of the BA.

Not gonna lie here, unless I'm in a tournament, I vary which force org chart I'm using based on my opponent (unless I need a particular chart for slots). If you're showing up with necrons, pretty safe to say I'm taking the CAD. If you're another marine player, BSF all the way.

Martel732 wrote:
Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.

GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.

If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.

Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.

I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.

Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.

I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.

I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.

As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.


Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .

 evildrcheese wrote:
I'm not sold the melta ASM in a rhino and here's why.

Looking at the role (anti tank, melta delivery) in the slot (Fast) for around the 100pt mark Attack bike squads in my mind at least are the better option.

Let's break it down:

ASM - 5 man, two Melta, rhino, 105pts:
5 wounds @ T4
2 Melta shots (need to be within 6" for double dice penetration)
Armour save of 3+, but added protection rhino av11 rhino.
Rhino is fast so can get into position quickly
However if Rhino moves 12" passengers are snap firing (Fast only benefits the vehicle, not passengers)
Melta guns can potentially be sniped out causing the unit to lose its teeth.

Attack bike x 2, both with MM, 110 pts
4 wounds at T5
2 Multi Melta shots, so only need to be within 12" for double dice
3+ armour save and access to a 4+ cover save (Jink)
Jink forces snap shots, but with 2 auto hitting HoW (S4) and 6 S5 attacks on the charge you've still got a good change of taking 1 or 2 Hull points off most vehicles.
TL bolters stock for added anti infantry
Can always move up to 12" and fire at full capacity
Both bikes have a MM so they can't be sniped out, 2 wound models do can reposition weakened model to try to keep both MM alive for longer.

Let me know if you think I've missed anything on either side.

As for what role ASM have, if running Dante (as warlord) keeping the jump pack with double Melta gun (6" scatter on DS) or if you really want mechanised, I'd got las/plas razorbacks with double plas inside.

D

Advantages the assault marines still have here vs the bikes.

Essentially two units for the purpose of seizing points.

Can screen other units.

If you move 6" deploy 6" you still have 18" range on the meltas for the extra pen, 24" range on the normal shot. That's only six less than the bikes.


MM attack bikes and footslogging asm in razorbacks were staples of every list I made the last dex, and while they're both good units, their battlefield roles are completely different despite the similar gear.


Also, I've tried using las/plas razorbacks recently after hearing multiple people on here praise them, but in personal experience you're just spending 85 pts on a model that will blow up turn 1 or 2 90% of the time. Over it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
I actually have a thread going on Assault Marine "hordes". We're coming up with some pretty good tactics over there. But enough about that.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: BA are not about death stars, or super unfair rules. As far as marines go, we are about efficiency. Our ASMs have double the options as normal ones, and have super efficient transport options. Our fighty HQs are sub 150 points and outfight every equivalent unit, but arent smashy or captain america. Our hard core assault units arent thunderwolves or wraiths, but they cost half as much and fight just as well. It DOES put us in an awkward spot sometimes, as we can't lean on big powerful units when things go bad, but it doesn't mean BA are weak. We're actually middle of the pack in the european tournament circuit, which I'm ok with.

We are not eldar though. But eldar are busted.

Reading that thread now !

Martel732 wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.

GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.

If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.

Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.

I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.

Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.

I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.

I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.

As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.


Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .

Orks can beat Eldar.

Then Orks are far, far superior to BA. I'd be fairly confident that if I were to play Eldar, I would basically never lose to BA.

Agreed. I really only think a flying circus army could beat eldar, and then only because jetbikes and wraithguard / knights are too tempting a choice for an eldar player to bother investing a significant amount of points into anti-air.

I actually wouldn't mind playing an eldar army with a list that was dual flesh tearers detachements with two fire raptors and four storm ravens, BUUUT since I only own one of each of those and am not going to be acquiring more anytime soon, that's a pipe dream.

Yeah, drop pods are good, I'm a huge fan of the triple flamer tactical squad in a drop pod with missiles. They're great at clearing out back board units, like snipers, and on the charge they can murder most tanks and all artillery.

That's still a very different role to the rhino squads. Look at it this way, if you even want to stand a chance against eldar jetbikes, you need to get them in hand to hand combat. But how do you get a unit that can move 48" or move 12" shoot 36" close enough to charge?
You've gotta hammer and anvil them. If you drop a bunch of pods behind the eldar lines, and have an advancing wall of rhinos, death company, and loaded storm ravens, MAYBE you can get enough bikes into hth to turn the tide.
Some of the time. (I'm being realistic here).

Believe me, the lack of mobility that over-reliance on drop pods will stick you with hurts. I just played in a tournament that had weird force org restrictions preventing me from taking rhinos or jump packs. Thanks to infiltrate and drop pods I could still get all over the table, but the lack of mid-game mobility was really hurting my ability to seize objectives, REALLY made me miss my rhinos and jumpers.

That would make all the sense in the world, but it has absolutely never happened. This is why I really miss the 3rd ed days of add-on codexes. Back when the blood angel dex simply stated that you used the normal marine dex for all but the BA-only units, when they changed the marine dex, the changes carried right over to the blood angels! GW decided this made too much sense and nixed the practice during 4th ed.
I think at one point there were three different sets of rules for storm shields depending on which chapter you were using.
Soooooo dumb.

I sincerely doubt marines are going to get much of an upgrade with their new dex, though. Like, they could use it for balance, but GW's never cared about that, so I just sort of feel like they're going to get their own decurion, a few formations, bikes as troops might go byebye, and some special characters will get some updating (particularly ones that reference things like 'scoring' units).

If they do get some crazy command upgrade for their rhino, 100% expect Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Wolves not to get anything at all like that, kind of like how we very inexplicably get no storm eagles, land speeder storms, or masters of the forge.

Why would someone fall for that in a million years? Wouldn't they just pod in the middle of the table or on their own side of the board then?