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So, I want to start spamming this squad just to clog my table with bodies and have rhinos to screen other advancing models.

What do you guys think the best loadout is? Tri melta? Is plasma worth it at all to shoot while advancing in the rhinos or to get up to 6 plasma shots the turn they jump out of the rhino? How about triple flamers? That's a decent amount of wall of death for when they invariably get charged.

What do you guys think?

Why not a mix based on the rest of your army...

also your local meta.

Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

They can trade out their Jump Packs for a heavily Discounted Transport.

In a 5 man squad how are you getting triple melta/flamer/plasma? I thought it was a combi on the sarg an one special for every 5 guys? Also do these marines still have their jump packs? The reason I ask is cause I know you can trade the packs for a free drop pod, rhino, or razorback I believe (haven't played 7th BA). If not why not take razorback for extra power or pod for better delivery. I feel 5 guys is too small to warrant a rhino cause now you are jamming important weapons in something that will crack easy and you don't have the extra wounds from 5 more dudes to eat up the damage.

 Solosam47 wrote:
In a 5 man squad how are you getting triple melta/flamer/plasma? I thought it was a combi on the sarg an one special for every 5 guys? Also do these marines still have their jump packs? The reason I ask is cause I know you can trade the packs for a free drop pod, rhino, or razorback I believe (haven't played 7th BA). If not why not take razorback for extra power or pod for better delivery. I feel 5 guys is too small to warrant a rhino cause now you are jamming important weapons in something that will crack easy and you don't have the extra wounds from 5 more dudes to eat up the damage.

>The Rhino gets you two Firing Ports and it is Free.
>You get up to 2 Special Weapons, model count does not matter.
>The Sarge can take a Combi or 2 Pistols.

Probably would be cheaper. I'm unfamiliar with the Assault Marine Codex entry. Stormboyz for the Orks are 9ppm and can come in a squad of 5-30....or rofl..a formation that puts 15-90 of them in one unit. With the Ork's Waaaagh and Ere We Go that allows them to move, run and charge with rerolls in the same turn makes them worth fielding. Especially late game if they are still a fair sized horde capable of responding to enemy units or tactical objectives with more ease. Assault Marines I imagine are much more expensive, better equipped and in smaller squads with no Waaagh or Ere We Go buffs.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

Interestingly, the Stormraven entry actually allows you to keep your jump packs on. The bulky rules make sure you use that to know how many actually fit in there.

But in any case, you can take the jump packs off and then you get a free transport. If you actually base your models point for point against models who don't already have jump packs, you can estimate your transport savings too. Larger squads actually save fewer points on the transports than smaller squads do when you look at it that way.

@OP: I would take flamers on normal Tac squads since they get to have a heavy flamer. On the assault squads I prefer meltas to keep costs down, but the extra shots on those plasmas is certainly tempting. Just more expensive up front.

A 5 man Assault Squad with:
>2x Flamers
>Sargent with Combi-Flamer
>Rhino with Extra Storm Bolter, Dozer Blade and extra Armor
...125 points

Yes, Blood Angels assault squads can take rhinos, they get them for free making them an absurd bargain for 5 man squads. You're either paying 15 points for a rhino, or the guys it's carrying cost 8 pionts each, depending on how you want to look at it.
That's not a perfect analogy, because that's comparing assault marines to 14 point tactical marines, who have worse wargear (generally), but count as troops, and that's also not making full use of the rhino, since you're basically paying 45 points for a vehicle that can carry ten dudes.

It's still not bad for just getting boots on the ground, if you're following a boys before toys approach to the game, and two cheap rhinos like this would be great for screening jump pack units for a turn while they advance.
Shoot forward 12-24" and pop smoke, baby!

I've had not-suprisingly terrible results using tactical marines in rhinos and razorbacks, so unless I'm using a CAD and really want some obsec fast vehicles, I'm never doing that again.
Triple flamer tactical squads in a drop pod with a missile pod, melee scouts in a storm raven, and scout snipers w/ camo are the only troops I'm bothering with at this point.

Blood Angels assault squads also get two special weapons, even if they're five man, and the sergeants can either take a combi-weapon, 1 or 2 hand flamers / inferno pistols / plasma pistols, depending on how many points you want to spend / whether you want that extra melee attack or not.

Well, I'm gonna try using two rhinos, no upgrades. The extra storm bolter is tempting, since they're fast they can move 12" and shoot both, but since their purpose is to move up, screen units and dump dudes, they'll either be turbo boosting, blowing smoke, or moving 6" and dropping guys. Not springing for extra bolters unless I have 5 pts to spare.

As for the squads, I'll try two meltas each, and then one serg w/ an inferno / ccw, and one serg w/ a plasma pistol / ccw.

I'll see if I feel like flamers would ever come in handy with them after a couple of games...

anyway, thanks y'all

Stopped using combi weapons on them to save points, since you can only shoot 2 weapons and disembarking is kinda pointless. Nice to have the combi when it wrecks, but i'd rather put the points into stuff doing more turn 2.

Melta guns all the way. 5 assault marines with 2 melta guns in a rhino is 105 points. And the rhino is fast. Its a steal.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Melta guns all the way. 5 assault marines with 2 melta guns in a rhino is 105 points. And the rhino is fast. Its a steal.

It's adequate. It's still 5 foot sloggers with an AV 11 ride in 7th ed.

No obsec would be huge for such an army.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
In a 5 man squad how are you getting triple melta/flamer/plasma? I thought it was a combi on the sarg an one special for every 5 guys? Also do these marines still have their jump packs? The reason I ask is cause I know you can trade the packs for a free drop pod, rhino, or razorback I believe (haven't played 7th BA). If not why not take razorback for extra power or pod for better delivery. I feel 5 guys is too small to warrant a rhino cause now you are jamming important weapons in something that will crack easy and you don't have the extra wounds from 5 more dudes to eat up the damage.

>The Rhino gets you two Firing Ports and it is Free.
>You get up to 2 Special Weapons, model count does not matter.
>The Sarge can take a Combi or 2 Pistols.

Thanks for clearing that up! my bad lol. Thought they kinda worked like tacs just without heavy weapons

 koooaei wrote:
No obsec would be huge for such an army.

They're not obsec when they're dead.

 koooaei wrote:
No obsec would be huge for such an army.

Well with Blood Angels you most likely not be taking The CAD anyways.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
No obsec would be huge for such an army.

Well with Blood Angels you most likely not be taking The CAD anyways.

I've actually been changing my mind about that recently. The +1 init is not often worth being able to just ignore some enemy units. It's hard to say. They are both flawed in the hands of the BA.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

Assault Marines may exchange their Jump Packs for a Rhino or Drop Pod for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my own experiences, Assault Marines are best suited to the role of fast moving, unpredictable tank killers. Give them 2 melta guns and a couple of inferno pistols on the Sergeant and put the in a drop pod or just keep them with jump packs.

 natpri771 wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

Assault Marines may exchange their Jump Packs for a Rhino or Drop Pod for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my own experiences, Assault Marines are best suited to the role of fast moving, unpredictable tank killers. Give them 2 melta guns and a couple of inferno pistols on the Sergeant and put the in a drop pod or just keep them with jump packs.

I'm of the same mindset, though I definitely prefer the combi melta on the sgt over 2 pistols, particularly on drop pods. The extra range is huge, as is the decreased cost.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 natpri771 wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Do Assault Marines have Jump Packs? If so then unless your Codex itself specifies it then your Assault Marines can't embark on a transport. Main rule book states it. I understand the Bulky trait may be confusing and cause someone to believe it's for transports but buildings have transport capacity as well and infantry with jump jets are allowed to embark in those or even jump up on top of battlements in one hop as well..

Assault Marines may exchange their Jump Packs for a Rhino or Drop Pod for free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my own experiences, Assault Marines are best suited to the role of fast moving, unpredictable tank killers. Give them 2 melta guns and a couple of inferno pistols on the Sergeant and put the in a drop pod or just keep them with jump packs.

I'm of the same mindset, though I definitely prefer the combi melta on the sgt over 2 pistols, particularly on drop pods. The extra range is huge, as is the decreased cost.

How about Plasma-Guns, a better effective range and can still take down most tanks. Give the Sarge a Combi-Melta for when you if/get close.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Melta guns all the way. 5 assault marines with 2 melta guns in a rhino is 105 points. And the rhino is fast. Its a steal.

It's adequate. It's still 5 foot sloggers with an AV 11 ride in 7th ed.

Ahhh Martel, my favorite person to actually talk shop with on a competitive level.

The thing is, adequate is all I'm ever going to get with even the best loadout possible, because nothing in the dex comes even close to Eldar. Whattaya gonna do tho, literally the entire rest of the game is in the same boat.

The thing is nobody in my area plays eldar atm. One guy took one look at the new dex and traded in his entire eldar army realizing nobody would ever play him.

Anyway, just to address a few of the other things that have been said here, I have plenty of assault marines with jump packs and meltas and flamers. They were a staple with the last dex, obvs, but they don't see as much use for me these days, also for obvious reasons. Yeah, they're good on the deep strike, in theory, but I roll abysmally with my scatter die, even with all the blood angel advantages I get, so I don't like relying on that too much.

You can just run them up the field, but then you NEED to screen them with something, because unless there's lot's of LOS blocking terrain, they will absolutely get shot to pieces.

Advancing them up behind rhinos works alright. The rhinos WILL die, one or two turns in, or if you're lucky, once there some hand to hand combat going they can zip off and help seize some points.

This, as far as I can tell, is about the only way they're remotely useful.

The question is, then, what to put in them. I've had horrible results with tacticals. A full ten man squad in a rhino is a gigantic point sink for something that is terrible. I've had decent results with loading my tacticals up with triple flamers and sticking them in a drop pod with missiles to harass the back of my opponents deployment zone, so that's all I'm using my tacticals for at this point.

So now we come to assault squads with their sweet discount.

A 5 man assault squad with 1 melta and a dual pistol sergeant in a heavy bolter razorback was an absolute staple of my last codex lists. It was great in <1000 pt games, and even in bigger games was useful for screening jump pack guys and maybe zipping off to help control a point (units like that can sometimes get ignored in big games). Also the guys inside would actually make it to hand to hand a surprising amount.

Comparing that squad to the current 5 man assault squad in a rhino, the new squad is a little cheaper, loses some firepower from the APC, but gains some firepower to the squad. I see no reason it won't work just as well now.

Not a game changer by any means, but it's about as cheap as a marine unit gets, and I can't think of a better way to screen a squad of jump pack death company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

I've actually been changing my mind about that recently. The +1 init is not often worth being able to just ignore some enemy units. It's hard to say. They are both flawed in the hands of the BA.

Not gonna lie here, unless I'm in a tournament, I vary which force org chart I'm using based on my opponent (unless I need a particular chart for slots). If you're showing up with necrons, pretty safe to say I'm taking the CAD. If you're another marine player, BSF all the way.

Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.

GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.

If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.

Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.

GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.

If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.

Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.

I know, I know, I've sort of resigned myself to just not being able to play proper competitive for the next few years at least.

Bring 1850 pts, 2 force org charts, killiest list possible, no other restrictions, Blood Angels don't stand a chance, but then again against eldar, I genuinely think no one else does either. Not invisible grav stars, not marine bikes, not demon spam, not wraith spam, nuthin', so in that regard Blood Angels are just as boned as anyone else. And against every army I just mentioned I'm sure I could, if not win reliably, at least do good enough for the games to be fun.

I literally stopped playing in 4th edition because I thought the Blood Angel rules were so bad, but I don't feel that way now.

I just played in a tournament this weekend that had white scars, ultramarines, khorne bloodkin, chaos demons, necrons, iron hands, orks, and orks again. I came in second and honestly had a great time.

As long as your area has a solid group of people that are willing to ignore the eldar codex, I still feel like the game is very fun and blood angels are a very playable army.


Also that vehicle table thing works for Blood Angels too! Very okay with the fact that my storm ravens and fragiosos are harder to kill, because those are two of my most reliably effective units .

I actually have a thread going on Assault Marine "hordes". We're coming up with some pretty good tactics over there. But enough about that.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: BA are not about death stars, or super unfair rules. As far as marines go, we are about efficiency. Our ASMs have double the options as normal ones, and have super efficient transport options. Our fighty HQs are sub 150 points and outfight every equivalent unit, but arent smashy or captain america. Our hard core assault units arent thunderwolves or wraiths, but they cost half as much and fight just as well. It DOES put us in an awkward spot sometimes, as we can't lean on big powerful units when things go bad, but it doesn't mean BA are weak. We're actually middle of the pack in the european tournament circuit, which I'm ok with.

We are not eldar though. But eldar are busted.

MSU ravenguard and UM are so effective due to obsec. On the other hand, you have better mellee capabilities and double specials on everything. And i believe asm are cheaper than tacticals with a pod/rhino, right? It might be fine too but needs playtesting.

Martel732 wrote:
Adequate is actually a glowing endorsement for something from the BA codex.

GW has us boxed into a corner. We put out the AV 11, put the squishies behind it and hope it can last long enough to get something done with the heavy hitter units.

If scatter lasers were only S5, I'd feel a lot better about, well, everything.

Also, it didn't help they kicked melta right in the nuts in 7th with that vehicle table. You now need two pens to get ~50% chance to explode and by that time, it's almost HPed out anyway.

But blowing it up isn't everything. Last game I hit a Ghost Ark with 2 melta shots and I immobilized it and blew up the weapon that was facing towards my army. Every AV option got nerfed. Pens are still nasty. Sometimes even just forcing a vindicator to only be able to snap fire (i.e. not fire at all) can be enough.

The BA codex isn't bad by the standards of normal codices. The necron one is strong, and the eldar one isn't worth discussing except as a theorycrafting exercise.

I feel like 2 guys with melta guns in a Rhino for 105 is a good deal, but shame about the lack of ObSec. I find that when I pop out a squad with a pair of melta guns at a target, my opponent focuses on the squad and forgets that they came out of a metal box. That rhino then shows up on an objective on a later turn because an empty rhino is only slightly more threatening than an drop pod as long as there's anything else to be dealt with in the vicinity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
MSU ravenguard and UM are so effective due to obsec. On the other hand, you have better mellee capabilities and double specials on everything. And i believe asm are cheaper than tacticals with a pod/rhino, right? It might be fine too but needs playtesting.

I pay 120 points for that squad in a Sisters of Battle list, but it has T3, 6++, and ObSec... so?

I was really starting to warm up to my codex until Eldar came out. The SoB codex really pushes you towards MSU and/or allies. Also melta guns. Lots of those. This is the reason I think IK are totally fine and WK are broken.

I'm not sold the melta ASM in a rhino and here's why.

Looking at the role (anti tank, melta delivery) in the slot (Fast) for around the 100pt mark Attack bike squads in my mind at least are the better option.

Let's break it down:

ASM - 5 man, two Melta, rhino, 105pts:
5 wounds @ T4
2 Melta shots (need to be within 6" for double dice penetration)
Armour save of 3+, but added protection rhino av11 rhino.
Rhino is fast so can get into position quickly
However if Rhino moves 12" passengers are snap firing (Fast only benefits the vehicle, not passengers)
Melta guns can potentially be sniped out causing the unit to lose its teeth.

Attack bike x 2, both with MM, 110 pts
4 wounds at T5
2 Multi Melta shots, so only need to be within 12" for double dice
3+ armour save and access to a 4+ cover save (Jink)
Jink forces snap shots, but with 2 auto hitting HoW (S4) and 6 S5 attacks on the charge you've still got a good change of taking 1 or 2 Hull points off most vehicles.
TL bolters stock for added anti infantry
Can always move up to 12" and fire at full capacity
Both bikes have a MM so they can't be sniped out, 2 wound models do can reposition weakened model to try to keep both MM alive for longer.

Let me know if you think I've missed anything on either side.

As for what role ASM have, if running Dante (as warlord) keeping the jump pack with double Melta gun (6" scatter on DS) or if you really want mechanised, I'd got las/plas razorbacks with double plas inside.

D

 evildrcheese wrote:
I'm not sold the melta ASM in a rhino and here's why.

Looking at the role (anti tank, melta delivery) in the slot (Fast) for around the 100pt mark Attack bike squads in my mind at least are the better option.

Let's break it down:

ASM - 5 man, two Melta, rhino, 105pts:
5 wounds @ T4
2 Melta shots (need to be within 6" for double dice penetration)
Armour save of 3+, but added protection rhino av11 rhino.
Rhino is fast so can get into position quickly
However if Rhino moves 12" passengers are snap firing (Fast only benefits the vehicle, not passengers)
Melta guns can potentially be sniped out causing the unit to lose its teeth.

Attack bike x 2, both with MM, 110 pts
4 wounds at T5
2 Multi Melta shots, so only need to be within 12" for double dice
3+ armour save and access to a 4+ cover save (Jink)
Jink forces snap shots, but with 2 auto hitting HoW (S4) and 6 S5 attacks on the charge you've still got a good change of taking 1 or 2 Hull points off most vehicles.
TL bolters stock for added anti infantry
Can always move up to 12" and fire at full capacity
Both bikes have a MM so they can't be sniped out, 2 wound models do can reposition weakened model to try to keep both MM alive for longer.

Let me know if you think I've missed anything on either side.

As for what role ASM have, if running Dante (as warlord) keeping the jump pack with double Melta gun (6" scatter on DS) or if you really want mechanised, I'd got las/plas razorbacks with double plas inside.

D

Advantages the assault marines still have here vs the bikes.

Essentially two units for the purpose of seizing points.

Can screen other units.

If you move 6" deploy 6" you still have 18" range on the meltas for the extra pen, 24" range on the normal shot. That's only six less than the bikes.


MM attack bikes and footslogging asm in razorbacks were staples of every list I made the last dex, and while they're both good units, their battlefield roles are completely different despite the similar gear.


Also, I've tried using las/plas razorbacks recently after hearing multiple people on here praise them, but in personal experience you're just spending 85 pts on a model that will blow up turn 1 or 2 90% of the time. Over it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
I actually have a thread going on Assault Marine "hordes". We're coming up with some pretty good tactics over there. But enough about that.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: BA are not about death stars, or super unfair rules. As far as marines go, we are about efficiency. Our ASMs have double the options as normal ones, and have super efficient transport options. Our fighty HQs are sub 150 points and outfight every equivalent unit, but arent smashy or captain america. Our hard core assault units arent thunderwolves or wraiths, but they cost half as much and fight just as well. It DOES put us in an awkward spot sometimes, as we can't lean on big powerful units when things go bad, but it doesn't mean BA are weak. We're actually middle of the pack in the european tournament circuit, which I'm ok with.

We are not eldar though. But eldar are busted.

Reading that thread now !

If you have a Fast slot spare you could split the bikes over two slots for an extra objective grabber and run them in tandem when not required for Ob grabbing.

Moving 6" and disembarking 6" may make them move as fast as bikes but MM will always be better than meltas just because you don't have to get as close to gain maximum output. The only thing you're really doing by moving 6 and disembarking 6 is leaving your dudes out in the open to get shot to pieces.

Using rhino as LoS blocking devices I can't argue with, but I typically have rhinos from other units anyway, so even this benefit is marginal.

As I said there's scope to use ASM but I don't feel the Rhino Melta loadout is even adequate compared to other loadouts, I'd put plasma load out above Melta for dudes inside a rhino.

D