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So I played my first ever game last night, 1000pts, my mechanized AM gave a good account of themselves but I think my opponent came out on top. We're both very inexperienced and made a lot of goofs with rules because our resident WH40K veteran wasn't there to guide us.

My list was:

HQ:
Pask in a vanquisher w/lascannon, LRBT with HB sponsons

CCS w/ power fist, MoO, Officer of the fleet, medkit and vox

Troops:
10 grenadiers lasguns, grenade launcher, autocannon, chimera

10 grenadiers, shotguns, plasmagun, flamer, power sword, chimera

Elites:
7 Scions, flamer, powersword


My main questions post-match are:

What can I take that will kill Karandras? He is a ridiculous tank and I made the mistake of spreading out enough to let him and his squad pop up in my back line and slaughter my CCS and a squad of vets. He would have moved on to the rear armour of my russes but it was 3am so we called the game on a rock/paper/scissors (I won).

His 5 dark reapers wrecked my chimeras. as a squad they can pretty much kill any tank in 1 round of shooting, is that normal? He scored 3 hits on a chimeras front armour, rolled a six and 2 ones it was all over. It seemed all to easy given he rolled 2 ones... I dunno.

How do I make my MoO more effective? Ive heard getting a unit that grants prescience will help, but I cant work out what unit brings this to the table, is it a Primaris Psyker? He never had LoS either so that could be part of my problem.

Given the 12" range of orders, I've realized I cant put my infantry in chimeras and let my CCS sit up the back giving orders like I thought they'd be able to, what's the best transport option for them, and can I protect them with any meaty units given all of them except the commander are totally useless in combat?


My thoughts post-match are:

Pask in a vanquisher was an excellent choice (wiped out a grav tank full of fire dragons and made them walk up the board, and a fire prism)

Don't put so much damn terrain on the table (both of us were wishing we had more LoS)



Any tactics/army list suggestions would be awesome, my finished army will be 1500 pts, and I already have a vendetta, an LR Exterminator and 3 ratlings that I want to include.

PS will ratlings be any good at taking out his striking scorpion exarch/warlord?

Cheers,

Archie

Some thoughts. Your squads don't seem that focused on things. For example the power sword and plasma gun in the same squad end up being wasted because you can't charge after firing the rapid fire gun.

(Also a power sword on S3 models aren't that great.)

That's a good point. Please more like this haha. Thinking about it, that should have been obvious. But until this game I had no idea how CC worked or charging or any of that stuff. Might swap that hand out for a chainsword.

Another piece of advice. Voxes look pretty but unless you set a network to take advantage of it it's a waste of points.
And no, unfortunately for you ratlings won't kill Karandras. You'll need loot's of blasts that ignore cover to kill him

M.

The other thing is that guard in general doesn't do CC well unless it's 50 dudes with a priest overwhelming the enemy with sheer numbers. Even then, you're more likely mostly there to lock the scariest thing in combat.

I imagine you will change your mind about terrain very quickly. When most people start they prefer little terrain, but terrain adds a lot of tactical flexibility to the battle, it makes it less point and click and more careful consideration. Terrain makes a battle feel not only more cinematic but also more 'real'.
After you have got a few more games under your belt, you will really begin to appreciate what terrain brings to a game.

 ArchieGee wrote:

HQ:
Pask in a vanquisher w/lascannon, LRBT with HB sponsons

Give Paskisher a try. LRBT is bad, any sponsons on it is even worse, you just wasted those 20 points. When you fire an ordnance weapon, you can only snapshot with everything else (though you may have missed this rule, as it was your first game).

CCS w/ power fist, MoO, Officer of the fleet, medkit and vox

Why the Officer of the fleet? Do youhave anything in reserve? Is your opponent reserve heavy? If not, that's a waste of point. Medkit is a waste too, your guys are squishy, S6+ will deny FNP so there's really no point. Vox is useless in mechanized army, as you can't order your units if they are in a chimera (though you can give orders FROM a chimera).

 ArchieGee wrote:

His 5 dark reapers wrecked my chimeras. as a squad they can pretty much kill any tank in 1 round of shooting, is that normal? He scored 3 hits on a chimeras front armour, rolled a six and 2 ones it was all over. It seemed all to easy given he rolled 2 ones... I dunno.

I'm a little confused what you mean by this. When did he roll 2 ones?

Dark Reapers, if fully upgraded, can each fire Strength 8 missiles. That can easily pop a chimera outside of cover (even inside of cover). He only needs roll a 3 to glance or 4+ to penetrate. If these are the rolls that you're talking about then you did it wrong because a 6 and 2 1s would not destroy a chimera. I think the rolls he made were from the armour penetration table? In which case he would have already penetrated your armour 3 times (rolling 3 dice of 4 or higher) thus making the armour penetration table roll unnecessary since a chimera only has 3 hull points and AP 3 weapons can't cause an 'explosion' result.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Another piece of advice. Voxes look pretty but unless you set a network to take advantage of it it's a waste of points.
And no, unfortunately for you ratlings won't kill Karandras. You'll need loot's of blasts that ignore cover to kill him

M.

I must say I was underwhelmed by the effectiveness of orders, probably because as someone else said I don't have that critical mass of basic infantry (although I used First rank fire, second rank fire on my scions to good effect on his fire dragons). I made a point of giving every unit vox to create this network you speak of, but yeah, being mechanized I may remove them all, add SW to my vets and turn my CCS into a suicide squad, I had this idea that my CCS could sit at the back of the board and give orders to the vets who were up the front getting their hands dirty, but I should have read the 12" rule.

I have 3 tallarn snipers that im gonna use as proxy for ratlings, I love the models and theyre only 10pts each so I guess I'll take em anyway...

Thanks for your help mate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I imagine you will change your mind about terrain very quickly. When most people start they prefer little terrain, but terrain adds a lot of tactical flexibility to the battle, it makes it less point and click and more careful consideration. Terrain makes a battle feel not only more cinematic but also more 'real'.
After you have got a few more games under your belt, you will really begin to appreciate what terrain brings to a game.

True, but my terrain was a bunch of old brake calipers from my car parts bin and a couple of massive upturned fruit bowls, not very cinematic haha. Everything was randomly scattered and there was so much clutter I couldn't physically fit my tanks across the board in most places. Maybe we just need to put a bit more thought into placement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zsolt wrote:

 ArchieGee wrote:

HQ:
Pask in a vanquisher w/lascannon, LRBT with HB sponsons

Give Paskisher a try. LRBT is bad, any sponsons on it is even worse, you just wasted those 20 points. When you fire an ordnance weapon, you can only snapshot with everything else (though you may have missed this rule, as it was your first game).

CCS w/ power fist, MoO, Officer of the fleet, medkit and vox

Why the Officer of the fleet? Do youhave anything in reserve? Is your opponent reserve heavy? If not, that's a waste of point. Medkit is a waste too, your guys are squishy, S6+ will deny FNP so there's really no point. Vox is useless in mechanized army, as you can't order your units if they are in a chimera (though you can give orders FROM a chimera).

Troops:
10 grenadiers lasguns, grenade launcher, autocannon, chimera

10 grenadiers, shotguns, plasmagun, flamer, power sword, chimera

Important thing about Leman Russes is to magnetize them. Then you can swap around turrets and sponson/hull weapons easily. Also you'll likely buy a couple of LR Demolisher kits (Punisher, Demolisher, Executioner main guns), those are a bit different. Unless you do some conversions you can't really make the two sets compatible, but that would be ideal, so you could have any combination on main cannons you have.

OoF +/-1 to reserve is fine, but I didn't saw your vendetta in the list.

CCS is also good, but you either need something to give orders to, or use them similar to veterans (i.e. multiple special weapons), in a chimera, or put them in a vendetta.

Try to use magnets for special/cc weapons on your troops too, so you can swap weapons. Power weapons can be good if you go for melee blob (4 power axes can deal quite much AP2 hits with some support).

Here are some magnetization guides: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297605-tutorial-magnetisation/page-2 you can get dirt cheap ($3 for 100 piece) magnets from china.

There's some 7th ed tactica topic around dakka, give that a read too, lot of useful infos there.

Kandras can be killed by pretty much anything that can do damage. Lots of shots, and any ap 1-2 weapons (after hes popped his cover).

The dark reapers are still pretty bad in my opinion, just take out the 5 toughness 3, guys with 3+ armor. Not that hard. And they are terrible at destroying any tank with av13-14.

Try giving your CCS a Lascannon, the MoO and nothing else (except maybe Camo Cloaks). Then use your Company Commander to issue the Ignores Cover order to his own unit. Now you have an Ignores Cover Lascannon shot as well as an Ignores Cover Basilisk Shot. Works reasonably well, especially if the MoO can get line of sight for the reduced scatter. Even better if you get a Primaris Psyker rolling on Divination - if you happen to get Perfect Timing you can get Ignores Cover that way, and then Order the unit to Split Fire so you can shoot the Artillery Bombardment somewhere else.

The big advantage of Veterans is that they can take 3 Special Weapons in a unit. Load them up with Melta, Plasma or Flamers so you can focus on a specific target.

A LRBT isn't entirely bad, just don't except too much from it. An Eradicator will serve you better (especially against Dark Eldar) and it's also cheaper. Again, a Vanquisher isn't entirely bad either however against Jinking Dark Eldar Skimmers you might get frustrated with only 2 shots. A Punisher is the goto Russ for Pask, since 20 Rending Shots puts the pain on almost everything in the game.

 ArchieGee wrote:


HQ:

Pask in a vanquisher w/lascannon, LRBT with HB sponsons

CCS w/ power fist, MoO, Officer of the fleet, medkit and vox

Troops:
10 grenadiers lasguns, grenade launcher, autocannon, chimera

10 grenadiers, shotguns, plasmagun, flamer, power sword, chimera

Elites:
7 Scions, flamer, powersword

Given the 12" range of orders, I've realized I cant put my infantry in chimeras and let my CCS sit up the back giving orders like I thought they'd be able to, what's the best transport option for them, and can I protect them with any meaty units given all of them except the commander are totally useless in combat?

My thoughts post-match are:

Pask in a vanquisher was an excellent choice (wiped out a grav tank full of fire dragons and made them walk up the board, and a fire prism)

Any tactics/army list suggestions would be awesome, my finished army will be 1500 pts, and I already have a vendetta, an LR Exterminator and 3 ratlings that I want to include.

PS will ratlings be any good at taking out his striking scorpion exarch/warlord?

Things to drop:
- Medic -> T3 makes insta-death very common, so feel no pain is of limited benefit, he also takes up a special weapons slot
- Officer of the Fleet -> 25 points is a lot to toss on this guy at 1,000 points, he's only really helping the scions and only if he passes his ld 7 test. His value grows rapidly at higher points values, 2000+ points.
- Vox -> value scales with the unit, only put these on big blobs or well equipped veterans
- Power sword / Power fist -> lotta points that are unlikely to get much say, especially on 1-wound models like your veteran sergeant. Consider dropping them and giving your commander melta bombs and veterans krak grenades instead. If your guardsmen end up in close combat, they're probably going to lose, melta bombs and krak grenades will make them much more effective against monstrous creatures and vehicles.
- All those changes should net you ~50 points that you can put to good use with more special and/or heavy weapons

Things to add:
- Scions have a range problem, and a flamer is unlikely to be in range on the turn that you deep strike, 2 plasma guns or 2 melta guns are much more effective on scions.
- Maximize value where possible, so get your veteran squads 3 special weapons, BS4 is mostly wasted on lasguns, but it's a good deal on special weapons. I also highly recommend heavy flamers on your chimera veterans. They can pop out and toast a lot of baddies with that.

Tactics:
- At this points level, with a mech army, orders aren't going to be spectacular. They shine when you've got a 3 plasma gun veteran squad, a 50 man guard squad, or something like that. Focus on maximizing each unit's efficiency. While embarked, your command squad is just as shooty as a veteran squad, so run them like one, give them a heavy weapon to fire alongside the master of ordnance. Use all three special weapon slots on your veterans.
- Ratlings can be risky at low points because they're only ld 6. You might consider a veteran squad with 3 snipers + autocannon instead.
- A good tactic when facing named characters is to avoid them, they're lots of points highly concentrated into a single model/unit. Sun Tzu recommends hitting your enemy at their weakest, not their strongest. Another easy strategy, especially when facing assault units like Karandras, if he's going to assault you next turn then move your unit towards him or away from friendly models (but don't assault him!). The goal is to minimize how much extra distance he covers with the 2d6" assault and maximize how far he has to move to get to his next target. For instance, I was playing vs demons and my Leman Russ was going to bite the bullet next turn from a bloodthirster, so I reversed the tank 6" toward the table corner. The tank still died next turn, but now the bloodthirster had to go 6" out of his away and 6" further from any other potential target. Small gains like this can mean keeping an important unit out of the battle for an additional turn, which can make a big difference.

 TheSilo wrote:

 ArchieGee wrote:


HQ:

Pask in a vanquisher w/lascannon, LRBT with HB sponsons

CCS w/ power fist, MoO, Officer of the fleet, medkit and vox

Troops:
10 grenadiers lasguns, grenade launcher, autocannon, chimera

10 grenadiers, shotguns, plasmagun, flamer, power sword, chimera

Elites:
7 Scions, flamer, powersword

Given the 12" range of orders, I've realized I cant put my infantry in chimeras and let my CCS sit up the back giving orders like I thought they'd be able to, what's the best transport option for them, and can I protect them with any meaty units given all of them except the commander are totally useless in combat?

My thoughts post-match are:

Pask in a vanquisher was an excellent choice (wiped out a grav tank full of fire dragons and made them walk up the board, and a fire prism)

Any tactics/army list suggestions would be awesome, my finished army will be 1500 pts, and I already have a vendetta, an LR Exterminator and 3 ratlings that I want to include.

PS will ratlings be any good at taking out his striking scorpion exarch/warlord?

Things to drop:
- Medic -> T3 makes insta-death very common, so feel no pain is of limited benefit, he also takes up a special weapons slot
- Officer of the Fleet -> 25 points is a lot to toss on this guy at 1,000 points, he's only really helping the scions and only if he passes his ld 7 test. His value grows rapidly at higher points values, 2000+ points.
- Vox -> value scales with the unit, only put these on big blobs or well equipped veterans
- Power sword / Power fist -> lotta points that are unlikely to get much say, especially on 1-wound models like your veteran sergeant. Consider dropping them and giving your commander melta bombs and veterans krak grenades instead. If your guardsmen end up in close combat, they're probably going to lose, melta bombs and krak grenades will make them much more effective against monstrous creatures and vehicles.
- All those changes should net you ~50 points that you can put to good use with more special and/or heavy weapons

Things to add:
- Scions have a range problem, and a flamer is unlikely to be in range on the turn that you deep strike, 2 plasma guns or 2 melta guns are much more effective on scions.
- Maximize value where possible, so get your veteran squads 3 special weapons, BS4 is mostly wasted on lasguns, but it's a good deal on special weapons. I also highly recommend heavy flamers on your chimera veterans. They can pop out and toast a lot of baddies with that.

Tactics:
- At this points level, with a mech army, orders aren't going to be spectacular. They shine when you've got a 3 plasma gun veteran squad, a 50 man guard squad, or something like that. Focus on maximizing each unit's efficiency. While embarked, your command squad is just as shooty as a veteran squad, so run them like one, give them a heavy weapon to fire alongside the master of ordnance. Use all three special weapon slots on your veterans.
- Ratlings can be risky at low points because they're only ld 6. You might consider a veteran squad with 3 snipers + autocannon instead.
- A good tactic when facing named characters is to avoid them, they're lots of points highly concentrated into a single model/unit. Sun Tzu recommends hitting your enemy at their weakest, not their strongest. Another easy strategy, especially when facing assault units like Karandras, if he's going to assault you next turn then move your unit towards him or away from friendly models (but don't assault him!). The goal is to minimize how much extra distance he covers with the 2d6" assault and maximize how far he has to move to get to his next target. For instance, I was playing vs demons and my Leman Russ was going to bite the bullet next turn from a bloodthirster, so I reversed the tank 6" toward the table corner. The tank still died next turn, but now the bloodthirster had to go 6" out of his away and 6" further from any other potential target. Small gains like this can mean keeping an important unit out of the battle for an additional turn, which can make a big difference.

This was all excellent and really clearly states a few thing's I'd had a gut feeling were the case. Thanks.

Or you can use your CCS with 4 Meltas in your Vendetta. Being able to put the Ignores Cover or Monster/Tank Hunter order on your weapons will get the job done. If they're close enough to a squad of scions you can give them an order too. As for pask out your options think about using Pask in an Exterminator with LC/MMs and his buddy Eradicator with 3 HBs using split fire. If you want use the LRBT 10 points for 3 Heavy Flamers isn't a bad deal it'll protect your main gun from weapon destroyed results and give your tank a fearsome kick in short range where your main gun gets risky

I don't think sniper rifles are good at all. If you want to field them anyway, putting them on veterans is a waste of veterans special weapons slots. Either put them on SWS or ratlings. Ratlings are the cheapest source of sniper rifles, they have bs4, and since they can't do much damage, your enemy will ignore them, so their low LD won't be a problem. Also they'll likely they before they have the chance to run away, anyway, your opponent wasted shots on a cheap unit instead of where it counts. Win-win.

I don't have my codex to hand, so I don't know what buffs Pask gives the vanquisher, but for a heavy support LR or a normal tank commander, the vanquisher is frankly the second worse tank, followed by the utterly dreadful and pointless exterminator.

guard are my favourite army but currently arent all that competative, in order to make them so you must utilise what they do well and that's shooting.
Firstly don't waste points on melee weapons your generally always lose if it's got to that point.
Try to specialise squads, don't mix weapons to much and have a plan for each unit

My general setup these days is I always have a ccs with vox and lascanon in ruins along with a vet squad with camo. 2 ignore cover lascanons are very efficient especially in cover heavy Games. I usually then put some vets in chimeras with meltas and push the forward forward. I keep my squads cheap and expendable.

Lastly get a wyvern or two, for the points their brilliant light killers and once your ignore cover las pop transports they will rain down and kill the squad inside

Actually, having reread the rules, The vanquisher is ok, but I'd still prefer melta vets.

dark_red wrote:
guard are my favourite army but currently arent all that competative, in order to make them so you must utilise what they do well and that's shooting.
Firstly don't waste points on melee weapons your generally always lose if it's got to that point.
Try to specialise squads, don't mix weapons to much and have a plan for each unit

My general setup these days is I always have a ccs with vox and lascanon in ruins along with a vet squad with camo. 2 ignore cover lascanons are very efficient especially in cover heavy Games. I usually then put some vets in chimeras with meltas and push the forward forward. I keep my squads cheap and expendable.

Lastly get a wyvern or two, for the points their brilliant light killers and once your ignore cover las pop transports they will rain down and kill the squad inside

I'd add that IG can be good at melee, you just need blobs, power axes and support ICs.