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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 15:10:11
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Fresh-Faced New User
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This is a multi part question:
My friend and I were playing a game that was kill points and tactical objectives.
The objectives are easy to score, and kill points were one point per unit destroyed.
This made for a high scoring but very well balanced game. It was fun.
We did come up with the following questions:
1. How do other people score kill points?
2. Do you count units destroyed by friendly fire/perils as points?
3. Do you count deep strike mishaps as points?
Or:
Do you have another way to score kill points all together?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 15:15:12
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kill points are scored at the end of the game. For each of your units is falling back or destroyed, your opponent gets a Kill Point. It doesn't matter how.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 15:17:49
Subject: Re:Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Confessor Of Sins
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1) As the rules say you do, in each mission found in the book.
2) Again, the rulebook covers this quite well in the missions where Kill Points are obtained.
3) Same as 2): the exact rule is (from Purge) "each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed" This does not specify how the Unit got destroyed.
Lastly i would not call them "Kill Points", but "Victory Points", as you can gain them in many different ways.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 16:08:20
Subject: Re:Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Thanks for the swift answers.
We had a hard time locating these rules during the heat of battle.
Great community.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 16:58:40
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Completely destroyed just means that all models in the unit are removed as casualties. Counting this at the end of the game is something of a challenge as you have to remember what happened during the game. If you have 10 ICs together in one Unit and they're all removed as casualties simultaneously as part of the same attack, your opponent only scores a single Victory Point as only one Unit was completely destroyed. You opponent does NOT score 10 Victory Points. Counting at game end could accidentally lead to forgetfulness and accidental granting of additional VPs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 17:13:46
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kriswall, that is not the case.
“At the end of the game, each player receives 1 Victory Point for each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed. Units that are Falling Back at the end of the game, and units that are not on the board at the end of the game, count as destroyed for the purposes of this mission. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.”
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 17:14:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 17:19:23
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Do you have rules evidence for this statement? We are told that we gain a Victory Point each time a Unit is completely destroyed. How many units are on the table? One. How many units were completely destroyed? One. How many Victory Points do you get? One. The number of ICs in the single unit is irrelevant as they are considered part of the one Unit. If you think multiple units were destroyed, please provide rules citations AND a step by step breakdown showing how multiple units are destroyed when a single unit is attacked.
By way of example, look at the Waaagh Ghazgkhull Green Tide Formation. The Formation rules tell us the Green Tide counts as 11 Victory Points when completely destroyed. This comment is necessary as the core rules would normally only award one Victory Point as the Green Tide is only one Unit on the battlefield.
Putting multiple ICs together to reduce the number of units of the table that can be destroyed and grant VPs is a fair tactic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 17:48:39
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 19:49:40
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Confessor Of Sins
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Kriswall wrote:Completely destroyed just means that all models in the unit are removed as casualties. Counting this at the end of the game is something of a challenge as you have to remember what happened during the game. If you have 10 ICs together in one Unit and they're all removed as casualties simultaneously as part of the same attack, your opponent only scores a single Victory Point as only one Unit was completely destroyed. You opponent does NOT score 10 Victory Points. Counting at game end could accidentally lead to forgetfulness and accidental granting of additional VPs.
I will have to admit, the whole "multiple ICs in 1 Unit breaks all the Units rules" is a little extreme, even if it is RaW.... But that will stay in the other thread.
For the purpose of Victory Points, you are told how to count:
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed.
ICs "are individual units" for the purpose of calculating Victory points, regardless of who they were joined to. It'd be nice if this made any difference for the "other debate", but i don't think it's relevant for anything but Victory points....
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 20:05:29
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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MasterSlowPoke wrote:"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed."
Yeah, it's a weird thing. The BRB contradicts itself. We're told that ICs are a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes and then we're told that they are individual units and award VPs if they are destroyed. BUT... when they're joined to a unit, the rules tell us they AREN'T individual units. The rules are really poorly written.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 20:09:19
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Confessor Of Sins
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Kriswall wrote: MasterSlowPoke wrote:"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed."
Yeah, it's a weird thing. The BRB contradicts itself. We're told that ICs are a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes and then we're told that they are individual units and award VPs if they are destroyed. BUT... when they're joined to a unit, the rules tell us they AREN'T individual units. The rules are really poorly written.
It even says it "Black and White" RaW:
"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units"
It was 1 argument in the old debates, but most kept saying:
"That's irrelevant, it's only for Victory Points !!"
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 20:33:27
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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BlackTalos wrote: Kriswall wrote: MasterSlowPoke wrote:"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed."
Yeah, it's a weird thing. The BRB contradicts itself. We're told that ICs are a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes and then we're told that they are individual units and award VPs if they are destroyed. BUT... when they're joined to a unit, the rules tell us they AREN'T individual units. The rules are really poorly written.
It even says it "Black and White" RaW:
"Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individual units"
It was 1 argument in the old debates, but most kept saying:
"That's irrelevant, it's only for Victory Points !!"
Yeah, RaW also says in fairly black and white terms that an IC who has joined a unit is counted as a part of that unit for all rules purposes. You can't have it both ways. Either the IC is part of the unit OR the IC is an individual unit. The rules are internally inconsistent.
Realistically, the rules only work how we all want them to work if you count the IC as part of the overall unit while he is alive and THEN as an individual unit when he is removed as a casualty. The granting of victory points triggers off a unit being completely destroyed. When an IC who is part of a unit is killed, no unit on the table is completely destroyed.
Example...
My army consists of the following at the start of my opponent's turn 4.
Unit Alpha - 4 Tactical Marines and a Space Marine Captain
Unit Beta - a Venerable Dreadnought
Unit Gamma - a Rhino
My opponent shoots at Unit Alpha, and due to some poor placement and armor save rolls, the Captain dies.
We now have a situation where the Captain has been removed as a casualty, but no unit has been completely destroyed. The rules want us to remember that the Captain is an individual unit, when clearly, in the above example, he's not. I start with three units and I end with the same three units.
GW tends to use unit to mean different things. Sometimes it means "unit of models on the table" and sometimes it means "unit entry on your army list". These are two very different concepts. I would agree that the Captain is a separate "unit entry on your army list". He is most certainly not a "unit of models on the table". Instead, he's part of one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/05/04 22:26:43
Subject: Kill Points, Friendly Fire, and Perils Of The Warp
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Confessor Of Sins
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And that very problems stems from the fact that they've never had "multiple Units". If you join 2 Units together, you get a Unit, which "for all rules purposes" is 1 Unit.
1+1=1 is never really going to work, because when does 1-1=1? or when can you take 1 and get 1+1?
The only clause i can think of to counter your Captain+Unit, even though i do agree with how you are reading it, by RaW, is the part about "When all models from the Unit have been removed as casualties, the IC becomes 1 unit again"(Paraphrasing here)
His own death (IMHO) would "separate him by death" from the rest of the Unit as if the rest of the Unit was wiped out.
Clearly extrapolation rather than RaW by this point, but "that RaW" is just a complete mess, mainly due to IC's "for all rules purposes", which covers ANYTHING (It really should not). It created issues with Battle Brothers embarking in 6th, Detachment benefits in 7th, as well as Preferred Enemy, destroying the Psyker rules and Unit allocation (joining a Mek to a Mek and have a new Units cause they joined a Warboss that ran away fast enough)
Quite a long list for 4 words =P
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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