Switch Theme:

Thousand sons and what they should be.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




For everyone that doesn't know or forgot, Thousand sons are probably one of the most useless units in the CSM codex. People have argued that on paper, they look nice, but I'll explain why they really aren't.

First problem: Thousand sons lack damage output.
They cost almost twice as much as regular CSM, a 10-man squad comming in 5 points under a 20-man CSM squad. When you compare damage output, they almost always lose to them. AP looks nice, except you get less than half the shots because the sorcerer doesn't have a boltgun. The only target where 1k sons will outperform regular CSM is anything that has a 3+ armor save, but no invul save.

Second problem: 1k sons, despite having an invul save, are not more durable than regular CSM. They die just as easy to small arms fire despite costing twice the points. They're more resistant to AP1/2/3 fire, but they lack the bodies (and thus wounds) to allow for failed saves. I'd rather have 20 3+ wounds than 10 3+/4++ wounds. The number of heavy arms fire required to wipe a 20-man squad of CSM is the same as is required to wipe a 10-man squad of 1k sons. (except when using blasts/large blasts)

In close combat the damage output of 1k sons is half that of CSM.

I know I didn't cover a lot of things, like 1k sons being fearless and slow and purposefull, but these are, in my opinion, less relevant. I'm not saying Fearless is not a big deal but aformentioned problems make so that the rule becomes less powerful.

So, onto the solution:

remove the Aura of dark glory from the wargear list of the rubric marines and replace by a special rule that allows them to re-roll saving throws.

Reduce rubrics cost from 23 tot 20, reduce their initiative by 1.

Increase sorcerer cost from 58 to 65 and give him a bolter.

A 5-man squad would cost you 145 (5 points reduction) and a full 10-man squad would cost 245 (20 points cost reduction)

What this would mean:
Rubric marines become balls hard to remove unless they are shot at with AP3. In fact, they'd be more durable than necron warriors with a 4+ RP.

Why do I think it is balanced?
AP3 and lower is no rarity. People already complain about the pletora of AP2 weapons that roam the boards. AP3 is even easier to acquire.

Necron decurions are frowned upon because they have a 4+ RP which you can never take away (decrease to 5+ at best). Having a re-rollable 3+ means rubrics are more durable than models with a regular 2+ save, but it also means you can more easily get rid of the save entirely. 1 battle cannon or similar would wreck an entire squad of 1k sons.

They're more in line with plague marines. Their ranged dmg output is higher vs 3+/4+, whule plague marines get the edge in close combat. They'd be about equal in durabilty, some guns would be more favorable for handling plague marines, others would be better at handling 1k sons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 15:37:43


You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.  
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





My suggestions is remove mandatory asp sorc with asp champ. Movement now req ld check. Give champ 2 bolt pistols with inferno bolt ammo and gun slinger rule to be a boss in melee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 16:19:50


 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Why the two Bolt Pistols? That achieves nothing; he has the same number of shots as a normal Boltgun and it does nothing to increase his CC potential than if he had a single normal Pistol and CCW.
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

I like this change, I think it works pretty well.

I'd also consider changing their bolter profiles to assault 2.
   
Made in gb
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Portsmouth, UK

You could also let them keep their invuln save, and let them reroll armour saves of 1 (a common theme for Tzeentch), which would make them much harder to kill with standard shooting.

I like the idea of keeping an Aspiring Sorcerer as the unit's champion, but reducing the points cost for him, and redoing the Tzeentch powers to make them actually useful (one idea off the top of my head, make Doombolt the Primaris power)

I think a big issue for them is Slow and Purposeful - it meshes horrendously with a unit that is all about close range shooting by a) making it take ages for them to get there b) being of very little use with rapid fire weaponry - only the mutilator has it worse and that has no guns! Yes, we can rapid fire and charge, but why would we want to? and c) removing what a lot of shooting units can rely on for a modicum of defence against assault - overwatch.

I think we should have some of those downsides - I can't see Rubrics running anytime soon - but it does mean we're paying for a special rule that is of no use to us.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






There's a guy who ran Ahriman + 3*9 squads of 1000 sons and wend 4 wins 2 losses on...adepticon(?)

The key to their damage output are not bolters but force axes and bolts of change. The only problem is that you have just 1/3 chance to roll this awesome power.

Anywayz, even though i like how a min squad of tsons in a rhino performs but they could certainly use some changes to see some more widespread use.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/04 19:31:14


 
   
Made in gb
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Portsmouth, UK

 koooaei wrote:
There's a guy who ran Ahriman + 3*9 squads of 1000 sons and wend 4 wins 2 losses on...adepticon(?)

The key to their damage output are not bolters but force axes and bolts of change. The only problem is that you have just 1/3 chance to roll this awesome power.

Anywayz, even though i like how a min squad of tsons in a rhino performs but they could certainly use some changes to see some more widespread use.


I love them myself (I normally run Ahriman/Tzeentch Sorcerer and three similar sized squads as the core of my army), but they do need some tweaks.

I'm guessing you meant Doombolt, but yeah, if you get it it's great. That's part of reason I suggested it should be the primaris power for Tzeentch - it makes the Aspiring Sorcerer far more useful, at least compared to Firestorm (S2 small blasts at AP- anyone?).

Hell, I wouldn't mind it we got access to the Change powers from Chaos Daemons, at least that would get rid of Boon of Mutation
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





 Valkyrie wrote:
Why the two Bolt Pistols? That achieves nothing; he has the same number of shots as a normal Boltgun and it does nothing to increase his CC potential than if he had a single normal Pistol and CCW.


Ap3 from inferno bolt pistols with cypher super gunslinger rules makes them into dual power swords while not paying 30pts for 2 power swords.

A shooty champ that can whoop butt in melee will push tsons over the top.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Filch wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Why the two Bolt Pistols? That achieves nothing; he has the same number of shots as a normal Boltgun and it does nothing to increase his CC potential than if he had a single normal Pistol and CCW.


Ap3 from inferno bolt pistols with cypher super gunslinger rules makes them into dual power swords while not paying 30pts for 2 power swords.

A shooty champ that can whoop butt in melee will push tsons over the top.


Ok first of all, he doesn't gain the profile of the pistol in CC, you'll have to make up new rules for that which to be honest, should only be used by Cypher.

Second, why 2 Power Swords? He'll have the same number of attacks as 1 PS and will actually get worse due to no Bolt Pistol for extra shooting.

Third, TSons are a ranged combat unit. There is nothing they can take to give them an advantage in CC. Absolutely nothing. Blindly saying "I want double pistols on this guy!!!!111!!" is going to do absolute jack to solve the original problem.

I have to ask, do you actually read what you post or do you just blindly type and think it's the best thing ever written?
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

I heard the idea of swapping the rules for Mark of Tzeentch and Daemon of Tzeentch.

KSons with their Aura at 5++, but rerolling ones including on normal saves? Very tough vs light fire (which suits the imagery in my mind) and still survive some big hits.

Pink Horrors and other Tzeentch Daemons gain really good saves but lose the very frustrating reroll that seems to cause a lot of problems...

I think both would be very interesting to play.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





 Valkyrie wrote:
 Filch wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Why the two Bolt Pistols? That achieves nothing; he has the same number of shots as a normal Boltgun and it does nothing to increase his CC potential than if he had a single normal Pistol and CCW.


Ap3 from inferno bolt pistols with cypher super gunslinger rules makes them into dual power swords while not paying 30pts for 2 power swords.

A shooty champ that can whoop butt in melee will push tsons over the top.


Ok first of all, he doesn't gain the profile of the pistol in CC, you'll have to make up new rules for that which to be honest, should only be used by Cypher.

Second, why 2 Power Swords? He'll have the same number of attacks as 1 PS and will actually get worse due to no Bolt Pistol for extra shooting.

Third, TSons are a ranged combat unit. There is nothing they can take to give them an advantage in CC. Absolutely nothing. Blindly saying "I want double pistols on this guy!!!!111!!" is going to do absolute jack to solve the original problem.

I have to ask, do you actually read what you post or do you just blindly type and think it's the best thing ever written?


I type this all on my smart phone in between breaks at work. I dont have have the luxury to sit down at a computer and keyboard with organized writing and auto correct is annoying. So i have to keep it short.

Its getting really tiring to have to re explain to you. Do not confuse my frustrating tone with condescending. You interpret it as condescending because you think you know everything and think you are entitled and privileged.

Cypher Super Gunslinger rule > Universal Rule gunslinger rule. When I typed "Cypher Super gunslinger" i meant that the guy gets to use his bolt pistols exactly like cypher not the weak Universal Rule Gunslinger. The Universal gunslinger rule is worthless.

Extend Inferno Bolters to include Bolt pistols so it shoots ap3 by re writing it as inferno bolter ammo much like malefic ammo. Therefore I said it would be like giving a guy 2 power swords when in actuality he only paid a few points for a 2nd bolt pistol.

Regular TSon@23
Champ upgade@10
extra bolt pistol@2
total=35pts

No warp charge, no psychic ability, no useless Mastery level 1. No force weaponry.
Instead he can now shoot both pistols with at 12" s4 ap3 with his rubric brothers which are rapid firing at 12" thereby helping shooting. If he charges, then he gets to shoot 2 bolt pistols and attack Base 1+1 for charge+1 for double ccw= 3 attacks all hitting at s4 ap3 thanks to Cypher super gunslinger rule.

Now what would help TSons even more is to allow them to dual wield bolters. Then that would double their fire power.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Filch wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
 Filch wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Why the two Bolt Pistols? That achieves nothing; he has the same number of shots as a normal Boltgun and it does nothing to increase his CC potential than if he had a single normal Pistol and CCW.


Ap3 from inferno bolt pistols with cypher super gunslinger rules makes them into dual power swords while not paying 30pts for 2 power swords.

A shooty champ that can whoop butt in melee will push tsons over the top.


Ok first of all, he doesn't gain the profile of the pistol in CC, you'll have to make up new rules for that which to be honest, should only be used by Cypher.

Second, why 2 Power Swords? He'll have the same number of attacks as 1 PS and will actually get worse due to no Bolt Pistol for extra shooting.

Third, TSons are a ranged combat unit. There is nothing they can take to give them an advantage in CC. Absolutely nothing. Blindly saying "I want double pistols on this guy!!!!111!!" is going to do absolute jack to solve the original problem.

I have to ask, do you actually read what you post or do you just blindly type and think it's the best thing ever written?


I type this all on my smart phone in between breaks at work. I dont have have the luxury to sit down at a computer and keyboard with organized writing and auto correct is annoying. So i have to keep it short.

Its getting really tiring to have to re explain to you. Do not confuse my frustrating tone with condescending. You interpret it as condescending because you think you know everything and think you are entitled and privileged.

Cypher Super Gunslinger rule > Universal Rule gunslinger rule. When I typed "Cypher Super gunslinger" i meant that the guy gets to use his bolt pistols exactly like cypher not the weak Universal Rule Gunslinger. The Universal gunslinger rule is worthless.

Extend Inferno Bolters to include Bolt pistols so it shoots ap3 by re writing it as inferno bolter ammo much like malefic ammo. Therefore I said it would be like giving a guy 2 power swords when in actuality he only paid a few points for a 2nd bolt pistol.

Regular TSon@23
Champ upgade@10
extra bolt pistol@2
total=35pts

No warp charge, no psychic ability, no useless Mastery level 1. No force weaponry.
Instead he can now shoot both pistols with at 12" s4 ap3 with his rubric brothers which are rapid firing at 12" thereby helping shooting. If he charges, then he gets to shoot 2 bolt pistols and attack Base 1+1 for charge+1 for double ccw= 3 attacks all hitting at s4 ap3 thanks to Cypher super gunslinger rule.

Now what would help TSons even more is to allow them to dual wield bolters. Then that would double their fire power.


First of all, the fact that you're on mobile isn't really an excuse for anything. I often post from mobile and yet my posts remain as coherent as if I had typed on a laptop.

Second, thanks for proving my point on being condesending. Because I counter your claim with a reasonable argument, you claim " you think you know everything and think you are entitled and privileged." That adds nothin to the discussion and is quite frankly offensive.

Third, let's go back to the actual discussion at hand. If we give him 2x Bolt Pistols as you suggest, he gets 2x S4 Ap3 shots at ranged, exactly the same as if he had a normal Boltgun.

He also gets S4 Ap3 attacks in CC if we give him Cypher's rule, which I doubt anyone would since no other unit in the game gets to, I don't see why they'd start with TSons of all units. On the charge he'll get 4x S4 Ap3 attacks, but he loses Force and the ability to choose a variety of Force Weapons. He becomes worse, as he's stuck with S4 Ap3 rather than the ability to choose S6 Ap4, S5 Ap2 as well.

TSons are pretty much garbage, and giving the Champ 2x Bolt Pistols isn't doing anything to help. I'm hoping you'll have a reasonable counterargument rather than a personal attack.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Let me formslly spologize. I sm arry thay i hirt your ferlings.

my cpnter is that a 35pt champ is more expendable becssue he is weaker. A ml 1 sorc is worthless even with the force weapon you pay for. and s5 ap2 is force axe unwieldy. j thimk the more i try to discuas this with you the more upset you will grt.

awe stupid fat fingers. its too much work to correct the dpelling sbove. what rver.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/05 15:49:47


 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 Filch wrote:
Let me formslly spologize. I sm arry thay i hirt your ferlings.

my cpnter is that a 35pt champ is more expendable becssue he is weaker. A ml 1 sorc is worthless even with the force weapon you pay for. j thimk the more i try to discuas this with you the more upset you will grt.

awe stupid fat fingers. its too much work to correct the dpelling sbove. what rver.



I don't see how discussing it would make me upset, I just don't appreciate the condesending tone you claim you don't use.

A 35pt champ is not more expendable because he is weaker, if you're paying that much for a squad leader you want him to survive.

What advantages does he have over a Sorceror?
- Cheaper
- 2x Bolt Pistols
- ...
That's it. That's your sole argument that TSons can be improved.

Let's consider the advantages a Sorceror has over a champ
- Variety of Force Weapons by default
- Extra Warp Charge
- Can buff units with powers

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





oh bou thos guy. j am so sorry if my text was personally condescending to you.

The weakrr champ is there to min max and shave points. more points saved means more points elsewhere.

The current asp sorc. =58pts

Regular champ= 15pts base marine+10 champ upgrade+ 15 power sword+ 15 power sword = 55pts

The inferno bolt pistol whippin champ=35pts
Performs just like the above champ but 20pts cheaper by special op synergy from inferno bolts and cypher gun slinging.
And yes the whole point is 2 bolt pistols = 1 bolter at 12" but is also assault giving 2 more shooting attavk on the charge.

If j wante to maximize warp charges then i would use hq Sorc ml3, and tzeentch herald. A hq sorc only costs 60pts. The asp sorc is 58pts and limited by tzeentch only powers. Bolt of change is the only worth wile tzeentch power. the default weapon is chosen at start of game and can not be morphed like mutilator weapon. Most people pick the maul option anyways.

Now how about givjng all Tsons dual wielding inferno bolters or better yet cypher gunslinging inferno bolt pistols.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/05 16:40:31


 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

/tg/ has the answer my children.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Codex_-_Thousand_Sons

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Lols!!! 1d4chan should be writing the rules for wh40k.

I think i am done here because i am laughing so hard!
[Thumb - 2015-05-05 11.53.27.png]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/05 16:54:23


 
   
Made in gb
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Portsmouth, UK

Valkyrie wrote:I don't see how discussing it would make me upset, I just don't appreciate the condesending tone you claim you don't use.

A 35pt champ is not more expendable because he is weaker, if you're paying that much for a squad leader you want him to survive.

What advantages does he have over a Sorceror?
- Cheaper
- 2x Bolt Pistols
- ...
That's it. That's your sole argument that TSons can be improved.

Let's consider the advantages a Sorceror has over a champ
- Variety of Force Weapons by default
- Extra Warp Charge
- Can buff units with powers



Alas, in his current state the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn't really have access to any buffs, as he is stuck just choosing from the Tzeentch list. Would be very handy (and fluffy!) if he could pick from Divination as well though. Even better, make Doombolt the Primaris for Tzeentch, then have it so you either get the Doombolt and another witchfire for Tzeentch, or Doombolt and a buff from Divination.

Filch wrote:oh bou thos guy. j am so sorry if my text was personally condescending to you.

The weakrr champ is there to min max and shave points. more points saved means more points elsewhere.

The current asp sorc. =58pts

Regular champ= 15pts base marine+10 champ upgrade+ 15 power sword+ 15 power sword = 55pts

The inferno bolt pistol whippin champ=35pts
Performs just like the above champ but 20pts cheaper by special op synergy from inferno bolts and cypher gun slinging.
And yes the whole point is 2 bolt pistols = 1 bolter at 12" but is also assault giving 2 more shooting attavk on the charge.

If j wante to maximize warp charges then i would use hq Sorc ml3, and tzeentch herald. A hq sorc only costs 60pts. The asp sorc is 58pts and limited by tzeentch only powers. Bolt of change is the only worth wile tzeentch power. the default weapon is chosen at start of game and can not be morphed like mutilator weapon. Most people pick the maul option anyways.


The sorceror has Slow and Purposeful, so he can fire a rapid fire weapon and still assault (the whole squad can!) - a bolter and a bolt pistol to go with the melee weapon would be nicer. Quite frankly I prefer the force weapons in melee - instant death is always nice, and if I know what sort of army I'm facing, I can take the appropriate force weapon.

Making him a generic champion wouldn't really make the unit on a whole any better and, for me anyway, it loses some of the charm of the unit.
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

 Filch wrote:
Lols!!! 1d4chan should be writing the rules for wh40k.

I think i am done here because i am laughing so hard!

Jink Caves are terrible, horrible things and everyone is justified in ignoring them.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





 Camundongo wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:I don't see how discussing it would make me upset, I just don't appreciate the condesending tone you claim you don't use.

A 35pt champ is not more expendable because he is weaker, if you're paying that much for a squad leader you want him to survive.

What advantages does he have over a Sorceror?
- Cheaper
- 2x Bolt Pistols
- ...
That's it. That's your sole argument that TSons can be improved.

Let's consider the advantages a Sorceror has over a champ
- Variety of Force Weapons by default
- Extra Warp Charge
- Can buff units with powers



Alas, in his current state the Aspiring Sorcerer doesn't really have access to any buffs, as he is stuck just choosing from the Tzeentch list. Would be very handy (and fluffy!) if he could pick from Divination as well though. Even better, make Doombolt the Primaris for Tzeentch, then have it so you either get the Doombolt and another witchfire for Tzeentch, or Doombolt and a buff from Divination.

Filch wrote:oh bou thos guy. j am so sorry if my text was personally condescending to you.

The weakrr champ is there to min max and shave points. more points saved means more points elsewhere.

The current asp sorc. =58pts

Regular champ= 15pts base marine+10 champ upgrade+ 15 power sword+ 15 power sword = 55pts

The inferno bolt pistol whippin champ=35pts
Performs just like the above champ but 20pts cheaper by special op synergy from inferno bolts and cypher gun slinging.
And yes the whole point is 2 bolt pistols = 1 bolter at 12" but is also assault giving 2 more shooting attavk on the charge.

If j wante to maximize warp charges then i would use hq Sorc ml3, and tzeentch herald. A hq sorc only costs 60pts. The asp sorc is 58pts and limited by tzeentch only powers. Bolt of change is the only worth wile tzeentch power. the default weapon is chosen at start of game and can not be morphed like mutilator weapon. Most people pick the maul option anyways.


The sorceror has Slow and Purposeful, so he can fire a rapid fire weapon and still assault (the whole squad can!) - a bolter and a bolt pistol to go with the melee weapon would be nicer. Quite frankly I prefer the force weapons in melee - instant death is always nice, and if I know what sort of army I'm facing, I can take the appropriate force weapon.

Making him a generic champion wouldn't really make the unit on a whole any better and, for me anyway, it loses some of the charm of the unit.


OMG thats right! they have snp to rapid fire then charge. They need to dual wield inferno bolters!!! That is so much more wi ! Free bolters!
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Actually, the champ is better off with bolt pistol for +1 attack on his force weapon.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc






Battle Barge Impossible Fortress

Not sure the idea of swapping Mark of T for Daemon of T.

There's no real reason why a sorcerer would be a Daemon in addition to having re-roll 1's on top of the Invul.

What I would like to see is the standard stuff but having Mark of Tzeentch do the following:

1.) 5++ Invulnerable Save
2.) Re-roll 1's on Psychic Tests

Icing on the cake for Thousand Sons would be:

1.) Rubric Marines re-roll failed ARMOR saves of "1"
2.) Sorcerer grants Relentless until he dies.

All that said, I'd keep their points where they're at..

Change discipline is fine if Aspiring Sorcerers could get it.. Divination I don't really care so much about but Ahriman should have it.


   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

 Brometheus wrote:
Not sure the idea of swapping Mark of T for Daemon of T.

There's no real reason why a sorcerer would be a Daemon in addition to having re-roll 1's on top of the Invul.


No, not swapping what they have, but swapping the mechanics between those two rules. Mark of Tzeentch giving rerolls of 1 for save, Daemon of Tzeentch giving +1 Inv.


What I would like to see is the standard stuff but having Mark of Tzeentch do the following:

1.) 5++ Invulnerable Save
2.) Re-roll 1's on Psychic Tests

Icing on the cake for Thousand Sons would be:

1.) Rubric Marines re-roll failed ARMOR saves of "1"
2.) Sorcerer grants Relentless until he dies.

All that said, I'd keep their points where they're at..

Change discipline is fine if Aspiring Sorcerers could get it.. Divination I don't really care so much about but Ahriman should have it.


I think the Sorceror granting Relentless while alive is good (if they can Overwatch then they have some better shootyness!) but the Tzeentch discipline needs massive overhaul so having a Lvl 1 user with it in these squads is a good thing, not a total waste.
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Personally, I'd love to see them just do away entirely with the Tzeentch lore as it is in the CSM codex, and instead flesh out the Lore of Change to a full 6 powers + Primaris, and have both CSM's & Daemons use that same chart.

Essentially, have their powers function in the same manner as how WoC and DoC use the same spells, but have different Lore Attributes.

 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





how about just make inferno bolter ammo a 3ppm upgrade with requirements of MoT or throw away Icon of flame's Soul blaze with Inferno bolter ammo. So then you can has ap3 bolter marines.

Csm: squad of 5 (1 champ) @75 can add up to 15 men for 13ppm

Can take mark tzeentch@2ppm
Can take Icon of Inferno@15 (squad has inferno ammo for bolters, bolt pistols, heavy bolters)

or just allow upgrade of inferno bolter ammo for 3ppm
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I had an earlier proposal of a sort:

Remove Inferno Bolts altogether.

Redo Tzeentch's Firestorm as follows:

Tzeentch's Firestorm is a Blessing which targets the Sorcerer's unit, with variable Warp Charge cost of 1-3 points. On a successful casting, all models in the Sorcerer's Unit with the Mark of Tzeentch or Daemon of Tzeentch special rules add +1 strength and -1 AP to their shooting attacks (including witchfire powers) until the start of the player's next Psyker Phase.

Thousand Sons get an additional special rule called "Rubric of Ahriman: Add +1 to all die rolls to manifest Blessings that target this unit" as they have been ritually prepared beforehand to serve as vessels for their Sorcerer's powers.

Tweak the costs, give the aspiring sorcerer an extra wound and voila.
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had an earlier proposal of a sort:

Remove Inferno Bolts altogether.

Redo Tzeentch's Firestorm as follows:

Tzeentch's Firestorm is a Blessing which targets the Sorcerer's unit, with variable Warp Charge cost of 1-3 points. On a successful casting, all models in the Sorcerer's Unit with the Mark of Tzeentch or Daemon of Tzeentch special rules add +1 strength and -1 AP to their shooting attacks (including witchfire powers) until the start of the player's next Psyker Phase.

Thousand Sons get an additional special rule called "Rubric of Ahriman: Add +1 to all die rolls to manifest Blessings that target this unit" as they have been ritually prepared beforehand to serve as vessels for their Sorcerer's powers.

Tweak the costs, give the aspiring sorcerer an extra wound and voila.


So nerf the living hell out of them then?

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







How exactly is what I am proposing a nerf? It's not like S4 AP 3 shooting is actually meaningful to begin with in a game that rewards flyers, jinkers, gravstars, etc.

2 WC makes them S6/AP 3, 3 makes them a unit of plasma guns.

Granted, the game system could do with not being "total ML+d6" WC" but combining a 3+ to manifest blessings on them with the ability to Spell Familiar does make it easier to buff them.

Now, if Mark of Tzeentch were to add an extra +1 to manifest rolls on top of that...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/06 22:24:47


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 MagicJuggler wrote:
I had an earlier proposal of a sort:

Remove Inferno Bolts altogether.

Redo Tzeentch's Firestorm as follows:

Tzeentch's Firestorm is a Blessing which targets the Sorcerer's unit, with variable Warp Charge cost of 1-3 points. On a successful casting, all models in the Sorcerer's Unit with the Mark of Tzeentch or Daemon of Tzeentch special rules add +1 strength and -1 AP to their shooting attacks (including witchfire powers) until the start of the player's next Psyker Phase.

Thousand Sons get an additional special rule called "Rubric of Ahriman: Add +1 to all die rolls to manifest Blessings that target this unit" as they have been ritually prepared beforehand to serve as vessels for their Sorcerer's powers.

Tweak the costs, give the aspiring sorcerer an extra wound and voila.


I'd like the upgrade, but it still doesn't fix their lack of durability. It'd turn them into glass cannons which is really the opposite of what 1k sons are.
If their durability would increase as well, I feel the unit would become ridiculously strong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/08 08:58:04


You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







I feel that between Plague Marines, and even Nurgle Mutilators to a lesser extent (not to mention Icon of Excess units), the Chaos Elites slot has its share of "raw tough" units.

Tzeentch should be more subtle in its bonuses. And "easier to cast buffs on them" seems like an appropriate start. After all, it's not like there's an actual Marine trapped inside the armor...for all intents and purposes it's a golem to ritually prepare.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: