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Im not sure if this has been covered i couldnt find it.

Im wondering if this is a legitimate way of thinking this through, this may be cheezy which im usually not into so I wont be fighting one stance or the other as it was just something I randomly thought of, admittedly while drinking.. lol

Vyper squadron

Wargear - Shurican cannon, Twinlinked shuriken catapult

Options:

"Any Vyper may exchange its twin-linked shuriken catapult for a shuiken cannon"
"Any vyper may exchange its shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

so you buy the upgrade for the cannon and now you have two shuri cannons.

It has 2 shurican cannons now, can it upgrade both to scatter lasers?

While there's no RAW on this, it's generally assumed that you read the options from top to bottom. Following this process, you would exchange the cannon for a heavy weapon before exchanging the twin linked catapults for a cannon. There have been a few threads on similar subjects of people trying to get around paying for certain wargear on things like ork nobs. The principle is the same though.

RAW I think there is a solid argument for it. There are a number of places where you do sequential upgrades. This is how SM bikes get their special weapons (with the help of a FAQ)

RAI and HIWPI, nope. I think is this just another case of poor wording and unintended consequences.

If you plan on bringing this combo to any sort of organized event, check with the TO for his opinion and ruling. If you plan on building it WYSWYG, use magents, so you can switch back in case you are ruled against.

Even if you could, would you want to?
If I want dual heavy weapons on an AV10 frame, I'll spend the extra 10 points to drop the open-topped rule, and gain fleet, battle focus and a 5+ invul save.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Even if you could, would you want to?
If I want dual heavy weapons on an AV10 frame, I'll spend the extra 10 points to drop the open-topped rule, and gain fleet, battle focus and a 5+ invul save.

The “why” is fairly easy to see. Vipers are required for all the new guardian formations. If you need to take them anyway, might as well try to get the most use out of them. And mixing guns is often a bad plan as far as efficiency goes. I can see the desire, and an interpretation of the rules that could allow it. It’s a question worth looking into.

Anyone done any more looking into this? I was just going through my old threads to find something and remembered I posted this thread a while back.

As the last poster says, its a question worth looking into!

We have precedent for sequential upgrades in the Space Marine FAQ for bikes. It's entirely legitimate provided you pay the points.

I don't know the specific wording of the SM rules, but Vyper says:

"Any Vyper can exchange its Shuriken Cannon for one of the following:"

Note the lack of plural for the cannon.

Compared to, say, war walkers:

"Any model may exchange any Shuriken Cannon for one of the following:"

Emphasis mine. It's not exactly conclusive from a RAW standpoint (especially because cannon without an "s" CAN be plural, because English is a wonderful language), but from a RAI standpoint I think this is sufficient. At least, I personally am not going to take 2 brightlances because I'd feel like I was cheating.

War Walkers come with multiple Shuriken Cannons to replace to start with, hence the wording.

If we replace the initial Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser and replace the Shuriken Catapults with a Shuriken Cannon we are still left with a Shuriken Cannon in the singular we could apply the wording to.

There is no space marine faq that covers the rule people are claiming.

second, GW has been quite good showing the weapon options available to models from wargear in the instruction options. SO the part where it shows all the heavy weapon options on the top and only the shuriken cats/shuriken cannon on the bottom should answer this..

third if there was some bike faq it would not mean anything because 1- its a faq for a different codex, 2- a bike is bought as an upgrade then the weapon on the bike is upgraded its not sequintial in the way people here are claiming for a faq that does not exist, its like buying terminator armor then getting access to wargear that is denoted terminator only.

4 the RAW for vypers upgrading the shuriken cannon are singular.

so raw, rai, no.

blaktoof wrote:
There is no space marine faq that covers the rule people are claiming.

second, GW has been quite good showing the weapon options available to models from wargear in the instruction options. SO the part where it shows all the heavy weapon options on the top and only the shuriken cats/shuriken cannon on the bottom should answer this..

third if there was some bike faq it would not mean anything because 1- its a faq for a different codex, 2- a bike is bought as an upgrade then the weapon on the bike is upgraded its not sequintial in the way people here are claiming for a faq that does not exist, its like buying terminator armor then getting access to wargear that is denoted terminator only.

4 the RAW for vypers upgrading the shuriken cannon are singular.

so raw, rai, no.

The FAQ for SM bikes adds a line letting them swap their bolt pistol for a chainswrod for free. This is needed, as to take something from the special weapon list, you need to trade in a melee weapon or a bolter. Neither of which come on a biker stock. So for a SM biker to end up with a grav gun, they first trade their pistol for a sword, then the sword for the grav gun.

So while I agree with you on most points, claiming there is not FAQ is incorrect. Claiming it doesn’t apply due to it being for another codex is a much stronger argument.

Sequential upgrades and upgrades out of order are both fine(see sm bikes and shoota boy nobz, at least from the old book).

But remember the catapult upgrades have a limited traverse and it wasn't really RAI for vypers(is RAW though), again an av 10 open-topped is very fragile unless you jink and then you are just about wasting points(but that is more a topic for tactics)

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Even if you could, would you want to?
If I want dual heavy weapons on an AV10 frame, I'll spend the extra 10 points to drop the open-topped rule, and gain fleet, battle focus and a 5+ invul save.

War Walkers are open topped again this codex.

Can someone explain how this wording is different enough from the space marine "relics" wording? "may exchange x for one y"? Isn't the word "one" the main reason why the forum leans towards only 1 relic?

Full disclaimer: I play space wolves and our wording is "may replace one weapon with one of the following..." so I tend to play it where I can take 1 relic weapon and as many non-weapon relics as I want, but if an Eldar player allowed me to exchange both weapons for relic weapons I would probably allow an Eldar enemy to take two heavy weapons (exchanging 1 for 1, twice).

Any ideas?

The limit there isn't from the "one of the following" verbiage, it is in the exchange choice.

May exchange bp or chainsword. Or may exchange 1 weapon.

Once you attempt to exchange bp and chainsword, or exchange 1 weapon twice you are breaking the rule.

If it is bp and/or chainsword, you can exchange both for 2 items(this is how most of the melee and ranged lists read).

If it is any weapon, you can select it multiple times.

The limiter is on what can be exchanged.

blaktoof wrote:
There is no space marine faq that covers the rule people are claiming.

second, GW has been quite good showing the weapon options available to models from wargear in the instruction options. SO the part where it shows all the heavy weapon options on the top and only the shuriken cats/shuriken cannon on the bottom should answer this..

third if there was some bike faq it would not mean anything because 1- its a faq for a different codex, 2- a bike is bought as an upgrade then the weapon on the bike is upgraded its not sequintial in the way people here are claiming for a faq that does not exist, its like buying terminator armor then getting access to wargear that is denoted terminator only.

4 the RAW for vypers upgrading the shuriken cannon are singular.

so raw, rai, no.

\

As has been pointed out, the Codex: Space Marines FAQ adds the line, "Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword". This is necessary because Space Marine Bikers come armed only with a bolt pistol, and to be able to take any items from the Special Weapons list they must have a chainsword to replace.

This means we have permission for sequential upgrades; first replace bolt pistol with chainsword and then replace chainsword with special weapon.

A model's instructions are not rules, and you are completely incorrect about how Space Marine Bikers work.

If you replace the Vyper's singular Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser you are, as per the rules, replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser. If you then replace its Twin-linked Shuriken Catapults with a Shuriken Cannon then it once more has a singular Shuriken Cannon which according to the rules is eligible to be further replaced. Once again, you are replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser, for example.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There is no space marine faq that covers the rule people are claiming.

second, GW has been quite good showing the weapon options available to models from wargear in the instruction options. SO the part where it shows all the heavy weapon options on the top and only the shuriken cats/shuriken cannon on the bottom should answer this..

third if there was some bike faq it would not mean anything because 1- its a faq for a different codex, 2- a bike is bought as an upgrade then the weapon on the bike is upgraded its not sequintial in the way people here are claiming for a faq that does not exist, its like buying terminator armor then getting access to wargear that is denoted terminator only.

4 the RAW for vypers upgrading the shuriken cannon are singular.

so raw, rai, no.

\

As has been pointed out, the Codex: Space Marines FAQ adds the line, "Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword". This is necessary because Space Marine Bikers come armed only with a bolt pistol, and to be able to take any items from the Special Weapons list they must have a chainsword to replace.

This means we have permission for sequential upgrades; first replace bolt pistol with chainsword and then replace chainsword with special weapon.

A model's instructions are not rules, and you are completely incorrect about how Space Marine Bikers work.

If you replace the Vyper's singular Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser you are, as per the rules, replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser. If you then replace its Twin-linked Shuriken Catapults with a Shuriken Cannon then it once more has a singular Shuriken Cannon which according to the rules is eligible to be further replaced. Once again, you are replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser, for example.

The problem I have with this argument is that it is the exact same argument I use to justify taking two relics: first I replace one weapon with a relic. Then I again replace one weapon with a relic. I have yet to hear a good explanation of how these two arguments differ.

 NightHowler wrote:
The problem I have with this argument is that it is the exact same argument I use to justify taking two relics: first I replace one weapon with a relic. Then I again replace one weapon with a relic. I have yet to hear a good explanation of how these two arguments differ.

Unless there's something that specifically states you may not take more than one relic per model, that's entirely legitimate provided the model has two weapons available to replace.

EDIT: Oh, I see the issue - "...may replace one weapon for one..." or similar.

The argument against taking multiple relics is that replacing more than one weapon for more than one relic to some is in violation of the wording - one for one. It's less clear whether they meant only one relic in exchange for one weapon, or one relic per weapon swapped.

In this case the wording is, "...may replace its Shuriken Cannon..." and so the requirement to fulfil is whether the model has a Shuriken Cannon to replace.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There is no space marine faq that covers the rule people are claiming.

second, GW has been quite good showing the weapon options available to models from wargear in the instruction options. SO the part where it shows all the heavy weapon options on the top and only the shuriken cats/shuriken cannon on the bottom should answer this..

third if there was some bike faq it would not mean anything because 1- its a faq for a different codex, 2- a bike is bought as an upgrade then the weapon on the bike is upgraded its not sequintial in the way people here are claiming for a faq that does not exist, its like buying terminator armor then getting access to wargear that is denoted terminator only.

4 the RAW for vypers upgrading the shuriken cannon are singular.

so raw, rai, no.

\

As has been pointed out, the Codex: Space Marines FAQ adds the line, "Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword". This is necessary because Space Marine Bikers come armed only with a bolt pistol, and to be able to take any items from the Special Weapons list they must have a chainsword to replace.

This means we have permission for sequential upgrades; first replace bolt pistol with chainsword and then replace chainsword with special weapon.

A model's instructions are not rules, and you are completely incorrect about how Space Marine Bikers work.

If you replace the Vyper's singular Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser you are, as per the rules, replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser. If you then replace its Twin-linked Shuriken Catapults with a Shuriken Cannon then it once more has a singular Shuriken Cannon which according to the rules is eligible to be further replaced. Once again, you are replacing its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser, for example.

this is not permission for sequential upgrades, that would be a general faq.

This is permission for models with bikes to replace a bolt pistol with a chainsword.

notice how there is no limit there or discussion of one or its.


"Any Vyper can exchange its Shuriken Cannon for one of the following"

any vyper can exchange its shuriken cannon[its is singular not "a shuriken cannon" like for bikes a bolt pistol"] for one of the following[one is also singular..so it can exchange the singular thing for one other thing]

given you also ignored the other points on why this is not allowed, is not really necessary as the raw is quite clear from the vyper entry.

blaktoof wrote:
this is not permission for sequential upgrades, that would be a general faq.

This is permission for models with bikes to replace a bolt pistol with a chainsword.

Okay, I'll break this down for you. Space Marine Bikers come armed with a bolt pistol as standard; no other weapons except grenades and a heavy bolter for attack bikes. Their army list entry states, "Up to two Space Marine Bikers may each take one weapon from the Special Weapons list."

The Special Weapons list says, "A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:"

Space Marine Bikers do not have melee weapons. The only way for them to gain Special Weapons as per their army list entry is by virtue of the FAQ, which gives precedent for sequential replacements or upgrades being a thing.

So replace bolt pistol with chainsword. Then replace chainsword (Melee weapon) with special weapon.

"Any Vyper can exchange its Shuriken Cannon for one of the following"

any vyper can exchange its shuriken cannon[its is singular not a shuriken cannon] for one of the following[one is also singular..so it can exchange the singular thing for one other thing]

given you also ignored the other points on why this is not allowed, is not really necessary as the raw is quite clear from the vyper entry

If you replace its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser, then replace the Twin-linked Shuriken Catapults to a Shuriken Cannon, how many Shuriken Cannons does the model have? One. Is it the model's Shuriken Cannon? Well, yeah. Can it replace it? Yes it can, with one (but not two!) of the following.

I accept it is almost certainly not the rules as intended, but you're arguing a point that the rules strictly limit this from happening when they don't.

so you believe an unit of ork boys can upgrade all of the boys to nobs. interesting.

you have completely ignored the rules text being singular.

the space marines do have permission to do something sequintially, however the rule you are quoting does not in any way invalidate that the rules for the vyper say:

'its shuriken cannon" not a shuriken cannon, or its shuriken cannons, or any shuriken cannon but its singular only shuriken cannon for one item from the following.

the rules strictly do limit this from happening by the rules as written stating "its shuriken cannon for one of the following" which is completely singular like the rules stating a mob may ugrade one model to a nob. singular. that doesnt mean oh look i upgraded one, i have another so i can upgrade another.

if that was the rules as written it would state so such as "any shuriken cannon may be upgraded to one of the following"

or "any boy may be upgraded to a nob"

however that is not what the rules state.

blaktoof wrote:
so you believe an unit of ork boys can upgrade all of the boys to nobs. interesting.

Please stick to the discussion at hand, and don't try and misrepresent my point. Ork Boyz has completely different wording to what we are discussing here.

you have completely ignored the rules text being singular.

If it strictly meant it may replace only one Shuriken Cannon it would state "may replace one Shuriken Cannon". It's entirely reasonable to argue that per strict RAW the condition for replacement is upon the Shuriken Cannon being replaced as being the model's rather than a limitation of only one. There is no explicit restriction on undertaking the replacement process on its Shuriken Cannon more than once.

the space marines do have permission to do something sequintially, however the rule you are quoting does not in any way invalidate that the rules for the vyper say:

'its shuriken cannon" not a shuriken cannon, or its shuriken cannons, or any shuriken cannon but its singular only shuriken cannon for one item from the following.

Correct. It doesn't say "a Shuriken Cannon" or even "one Shuriken Cannon". I replace its Shuriken Cannon with a Scatter Laser, as per the rules. I replace its Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapults with a Shuriken Cannon, as per the rules. I replace its (new) Shuriken Cannon, as per the rules.

You are arguing for a strict limitation that is not stated.

the rules strictly do limit this from happening by the rules as written stating "its shuriken cannon for one of the following" which is completely singular like the rules stating a mob may ugrade one model to a nob. singular. that doesnt mean oh look i upgraded one, i have another so i can upgrade another.

if that was the rules as written it would state so such as "any shuriken cannon may be upgraded to one of the following"

or "any boy may be upgraded to a nob"

however that is not what the rules state.

You're arguing a point that is completely different to this thread. The upgrade of an Ork Boy to a Boss Nob is worded entirely differently to replacing a Vyper's Shuriken Cannon with something else.

Again, please stick to the topic and wording we are specifically talking about, or at least argue like for like; don't compare apples with oranges.

Generally, if a squad says "May add up to 5 additional at x points per model", and starts at 5, I may then add 5 more to make it ten.

Can I then exorcise the same option again? If so, couldn't I have 10 from doing it once, then add 5 more, now having 15 models?

The 'any' clearly allows each model in the unit to exorcise the option. Similarly, other sets and pluralities generally allow repeat applications of the same rules. But if there is no plural, what allows the repeat exorcising of a rule? And if there is none, why can't a Tac squad have 50 members?

Probably covered elsewhere. I just don't know where.

"Any vyper may exchange its shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

Due to this wording I think you could still only upgrade a single shuriken cannon. Otherwise it would say:

"Any vyper may exchange any shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

so maybe you could upgrade the chin cannon and then upgrade it to something else, but you couldn't upgrade the turrent cannon as well

 Mr. Shine wrote:
We have precedent for sequential upgrades in the Space Marine FAQ for bikes. It's entirely legitimate provided you pay the points.

We're going to lose that FAQ pretty soon when the new SM codex comes out. Presumably they're going to re-word the Bike Squad profile to not require that FAQ change. Will that have the effect of removing the precedent for sequential upgrades?

Bharring wrote:Generally, if a squad says "May add up to 5 additional at x points per model", and starts at 5, I may then add 5 more to make it ten.

Can I then exorcise the same option again? If so, couldn't I have 10 from doing it once, then add 5 more, now having 15 models?

Slightly different wording on that one versus this case; clearly if you are adding more than five additional members of the unit you are exceeding the "up to five". In the case of the Vyper the equivalent is "its" and when you replace the chin Shuriken Cannon it is still its Shuriken Cannon being replaced.

Rx8Speed wrote:"Any vyper may exchange its shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

Due to this wording I think you could still only upgrade a single shuriken cannon. Otherwise it would say:

"Any vyper may exchange any shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

so maybe you could upgrade the chin cannon and then upgrade it to something else, but you couldn't upgrade the turrent cannon as well

It's written as such because to start with a Vyper only comes with a single Shuriken Cannon. Again, this is evidence that it's not RAI, which I completely agree with, however that is not what I'm discussing at least. If you're going to allow for either of the potential Shuriken Cannons the model could be armed with to be replaced it then becomes a question of, "The rule says 'its'; if I'm limiting it to only one, which one is it that can be upgraded?!"

It should be either its base Shuriken Cannon that can be replaced, or both.

DanielBeaver wrote:We're going to lose that FAQ pretty soon when the new SM codex comes out. Presumably they're going to re-word the Bike Squad profile to not require that FAQ change. Will that have the effect of removing the precedent for sequential upgrades?

That's a matter of perception, I suppose. For me personally I would still see it as entirely reasonable to make a supporting claim of, "Sequential upgrades have been a part of this edition, going by the previous Codex: Space Marines" although it would not have the same authoritative appeal as one might argue now, absolutely.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Bharring wrote:Generally, if a squad says "May add up to 5 additional at x points per model", and starts at 5, I may then add 5 more to make it ten.

Can I then exorcise the same option again? If so, couldn't I have 10 from doing it once, then add 5 more, now having 15 models?

Slightly different wording on that one versus this case; clearly if you are adding more than five additional members of the unit you are exceeding the "up to five". In the case of the Vyper the equivalent is "its" and when you replace the chin Shuriken Cannon it is still its Shuriken Cannon being replaced.

Rx8Speed wrote:"Any vyper may exchange its shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

Due to this wording I think you could still only upgrade a single shuriken cannon. Otherwise it would say:

"Any vyper may exchange any shuriken cannon for one of the following: etc etc etc"

so maybe you could upgrade the chin cannon and then upgrade it to something else, but you couldn't upgrade the turrent cannon as well

It's written as such because to start with a Vyper only comes with a single Shuriken Cannon. Again, this is evidence that it's not RAI, which I completely agree with, however that is not what I'm discussing at least. If you're going to allow for either of the potential Shuriken Cannons the model could be armed with to be replaced it then becomes a question of, "The rule says 'its'; if I'm limiting it to only one, which one is it that can be upgraded?!"

It should be either its base Shuriken Cannon that can be replaced, or both.

Well the eldar codex is very very poorly written even by GW standards, reference shuriken catapults on storm guardians when they should have shuriken pistols, or eldar ranges having eldar jetbikes in their wargear entry

so by the RAW you can have 5 guys on eldar jetbikes with shrouded/mtc/ sniper rifles for 12ppm. Sounds pretty good to me, but obviously not intended and a separate discussion about a very poorly made book.

despite that...

the entry for vypers lists the bit about upgrading the shuriken cannon and then tells you the upgrade options.

then a separate line option below that that is not connected to that list is upgrading the twin linked shuriken catapults to a shuriken cannon.

so as to which cannon it may upgrade, it is the one it comes with that is not optional- you have the option to upgrade that one to something else.

then separately you have an option to upgrade the twin linked shuriken catapults it comes with to a separate different shuriken cannon.

If you upgrade two cannons, then the Vyper has replaced its Shuriken Cannons, plural. It is not allowed to do that, it is only allowed to replace a shuriken cannon (singular).

We have to keep the end result in mind to determine whether something is allowed. For the SM Bikes, they are all allowed to exchange to chainsword, and 2 may have special weapons. So if we look at the end result, have we taken more chainswords than the unit may have if we give it to them all? No. If we give it to only two of them? Nope. If we then exchange two of them for special weapons, have we gone over our limit there? Also no. Nothing here is precedent for allowing a unit to replace two weapons of which it is only allowed to replace only one.

Else you could indeed make Ork Boyz units all Nobs.

"- Some Ork Boyz may take heavy weapons, blabla."
"- One other model may be upgraded to a Boss Nob."
(Note they are seperate pips, so separate options.)

If we follow these in order it is fine; give some Boyz heavy weapons, then a non-heavy weapon boy can be upgraded to Nob. Awesome. But if we're allowed to repeat steps?

1) - One other model may be upgraded to a Boss Nob.
2) I choose to repeat that option. So one "other" model may now be a Boss Nob. Since my previous step was to promote a model to Boss Nob, the other now *obviously* refers to that Boss Nob, right? So I may now upgrade another model that is not him to Boss Nob. I now have 2.
3) And so on.

Allowing people to repeat options out of sequence leads to madness.

blaktoof wrote:

Well the eldar codex is very very poorly written even by GW standards, reference shuriken catapults on storm guardians when they should have shuriken pistols, or eldar ranges having eldar jetbikes in their wargear entry

None of those things are true.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

Well the eldar codex is very very poorly written even by GW standards, reference shuriken catapults on storm guardians when they should have shuriken pistols, or eldar ranges having eldar jetbikes in their wargear entry

None of those things are true.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/717390-.html

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/717391-.html

if by none of those things are true, you mean they are both true

not yet updated on the e-version I purchased which is a valid codex written by GW so you are incorrect in regards to at least the electronic version of the codex.