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Is it possible to make a Kabal themed army (so Kabalites and stufF) competitive, without having to resort to Covens and/or Craftworld?

I don't mind a few Coven units since they are still DE, but I don't want to get CWE (I like being the underdog).

Possible yes? You pack your list with venoms, warriors with blasters, Reavers, Scourge, RJF and a couple of ravagers. You had a scalpel squadron to give you the option of null deploy. Such a list perform resonably well but you're going to fight uphill battles against Eldar (like everyone), Necrons (also like everyone) and anything that's heavily mechanized.

This is rather ironic that I stumbled onto this, as I am trying to do the same. Now that my Khorne Daemonkin army is done, and it is super clear that I won't be winning any tournies with them, I want to focus on my Dark Eldar as a competitive force.

I think the key with them will be the Reavers and their obnoxious HoW rending attacks, Archon's and their WWP's, and Scourges for Haywire.

It's gonna take a lot of play testing but what I am seeing so far for my core will be 30-40 Kabalites sitting at home in my deployment zone as a base (with maybe an Aegis line), WWP an Archon and some Grotesques to deal with some marines or hordes, and Reaver/ Scourge squads to sit mid field.

I honestly have no idea how it'll work, and will probably end up resorting to ally Craftworlds for their D-scythes.

I've been working on this myself. Ignatius, I have to say I really don't think DE should ever sit stationary behind an Aegis line or try to play gunline. The huge strength in this Codex that I've seen so far is their speed and ability to saturate the field with threats and confuse your opponent.

I've been testing a list using 4 OBSEC raiders with Warriors, 2 Razorwings, Reavers, 2 Blasterborn in Venoms, and a mostly Sslyth-Court in a Venom, along with a Grotesquerie formation in Raiders. All the Raiders have Night Shields, and the Warriors zip to objectives as soon as possible so when they are wrecked (and believe me, they will be wrecked), you have a piece of cover to hide in while holding objecives. The Grotesques and Court are your skirmishing units, and the Reavers pull double duty as objective thieves and skirmishers.

Speed has been key to many of my victories, and having fast OBSEC units to turbo-boost across the board and steal an objective from a "normal" unit is hilarious.

 Homeskillet wrote:
I've been working on this myself. Ignatius, I have to say I really don't think DE should ever sit stationary behind an Aegis line or try to play gunline. The huge strength in this Codex that I've seen so far is their speed and ability to saturate the field with threats and confuse your opponent.

I've been testing a list using 4 OBSEC raiders with Warriors, 2 Razorwings, Reavers, 2 Blasterborn in Venoms, and a mostly Sslyth-Court in a Venom, along with a Grotesquerie formation in Raiders. All the Raiders have Night Shields, and the Warriors zip to objectives as soon as possible so when they are wrecked (and believe me, they will be wrecked), you have a piece of cover to hide in while holding objecives. The Grotesques and Court are your skirmishing units, and the Reavers pull double duty as objective thieves and skirmishers.

Speed has been key to many of my victories, and having fast OBSEC units to turbo-boost across the board and steal an objective from a "normal" unit is hilarious.

The speed is one of my favorite parts of the Dark Eldar, but I thought a blob or two of 15-20 warriors each would be good for objective stuff and keeping away Deep Strikers. Would those units be better brought down to 10 each and given a Raider? My only worry about that is when the Raiders die a fiery death, the Warrior squad inside will get decimated too. Plus, I figure the large squads would give a good footprint on the board, as the rest of the list includes smaller numbers of the heavy lifters. But do you think it is better to not worry about it and use Raider Warrior Squads?

Kabal list have some really nasty gunboats with the splinter racks. So killing infantry will not be a problem.

Killing vehicles can be, So let the venoms and warrior gun boats kill the troops; Let everything else kill the vehicles.

Scourges with haywire are pretty good at stripping armour, But I have yet to do try it myself.

I have been running my DE as fast as I can and using the RSR detachment, I dont think Obsec is really needed with DE since everything can score. My reasoning behind that is we rock at killing troops, so shoot them off the obj and let a fast support swoop in. Our tank craking abilities are decent, so crack that tank and swoop in. We really thrive on scoring all our points in the late game while harrassing and dwindling the enemy early on so we can out run them every chance we get. Now this does also depend on the mealstrom mission as a few of them really lean out of our favor on having to hold points early or force us to contest with the enemy early. But even with that I still go by one of my top rules with DE, max out those fast attacks son! 5-6 every time!

I find this to be the optimal setup for Kabalites:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 80 pts.
• 1 Raider, 90 pts. (DL, Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

10-20 TL Poison Shots in a 3+ Jinking mobile platform with a single AT weapon. I've got 4 of those in my army as the core.

Haywire Scourges own vehicles hard. This includes Superheavies. Two teams and you can reliably strip 4 HPs a turn regardless of AV.

Reavers for great mobility and CC punch. Rending HoW is also useful against units with Invisibility.

Razorwing Jetfighters are nice as well. I use mine with 2 DLs and Necrotoxin Missiles. They may hunt other Fliers, force Flying Tyrants to Jink and drop multiple Fleshbane Large Blasts on blobs of Centurions or Bikers. Or just good ol' hordes too.

As far as HQ is concerned I prefer to run my army with Blaster Archon in a DT Venom, but more "optimal" setup might be a single 10 pts. Lhamean in DT Venom so that you've got more points for other stuff. I find that idea to be meh, though, I want my army to be commanded by an actual leader.

P.S.
It may be just me but Ravagers are rather lacklustre. Their nerf was really unnecessary. Scourges are better at AT.

 SarisKhan wrote:

As far as HQ is concerned I prefer to run my army with Blaster Archon in a DT Venom, but more "optimal" setup might be a single 10 pts. Lhamean in DT Venom so that you've got more points for other stuff. I find that idea to be meh, though, I want my army to be commanded by an actual leader.

I agree entirely. However, this is perhaps the thing I hate most about the new DE - I feel like I'm being actively punished for wanting an actual character as my HQ. The Haemonculus is comparable in cost to many psykers, but his support ability is orders of magnitude worse and he certainly doesn't make up for it on the combat front. The Succubus is decent in combat, but her damage output really doesn't make up for how pathetically fragile she is. The Archon has the most options, but lacks any AP2 (or even any weapons that aren't badly overcosted) and doesn't really do anything that other units couldn't do better for less.

The Huskblade is a particular bugbear of mine. Why did it have to be nerfed down to AP3, leaving the Archon without a single AP2 weapon to his name? Was it overpowered? Because, in the age of S10 AP2 force weapon Dreadknights, S8 AP2 Pie-plate Riptides and Wraithknights toting D-weapons, I can see that a S3 AP2 weapon with ID would obviously be overpowered.

 SarisKhan wrote:

It may be just me but Ravagers are rather lacklustre. Their nerf was really unnecessary. Scourges are better at AT.

Agreed on all counts.

However, the one thing Ravagers do have over Scourges is versatility. When you come across an army without vehicles, those Dark Lances start to look a lot more attractive.

Something else to consider is Harlequin allies. They provide some extra Haywire, as well as fast-moving anti-elite assault units.

They also provide one of the most troll-tastic psychic disciplines in the game, as well as one of the best "nope, can't shoot that" powers (Phantasmancy, and Veil of Tears).

Oh, and for those worried about Haywire AT... take Heat Lances on your Scourges/Reavers. Hell, take Blasters on them. Not quite as awesome for killing AV, but much more versatile.

Oh I forgot to include that.

Yeah, I don't mind Harlequin allies, they seem to be ridiculed in my meta.

I feel bad for your meta then, because I think that Harlies might be the best way to "patch in" weaknesses of DE lists. The only real issue with the Harlequins is that the detachment/formation options to take them are really restrictive.

Which really sucks, because Shadowseers are amazing, and you could potentially combo Armor of Misery, the Mask of Shadows, and the Death Jester to troll your opponent relentlessly by moving his mans around for him. The only issue is that to do so you're likely either going to have to bring a full Masque (which I think is like 1000-1300 points base investment (!)) or Hero's Path, which is 3 models (Solitaire, Shadowseer, and the DJ) that can't join any units... which really bites for the Shadowseer, as Solitaires can't join anybody anyways and DJs don't much care about being in a unit when they have Stealth/Shrouded.

For the Shadowseer it sucks because then you can't use Veil of Tears to keep a big blob of whatever from getting shot to pieces.

One thing that I think really makes Harlies shine as DE allies is the aformentioned LD-related shenanigans, and the fact that Harlies can just crush more elite infantry models in combat (like Termies), as well as being able to get pretty consistent Turn 2 charges. If you dig FW, and you're a savvy converter, you might try putting together a Tantalus. It's more of a metahl boate, rather than a cardboad one like the Raider (Tantalus has 12/12/10 armor, and IIRC 3 or 4 HPs).

The Tantalus also holds 16 models (!), making it good for delivering larger units of Grotesques, or big blobs of Bloodbrides/Incubi/Wyches/Players into enemy lines.

Tantalus is the closest thing DE have to a Superheavy. 12/12/10, 5 HPs and the ability to take NS for 3+ Jink and/or the good ol' Flickerfield for a 5++ save. Not to mention the 16-man transport capacity and old-Reaver-esque ability to semi-Vector Strike enemy units.

Obviously, the FW price for the thing is outright scary.

Aside the Revenent which they can take but gl getting a game with that in your list

Not a huge fan of FW these days, as you've said price is expensive and there is a certain air of superiority that I get when a FWless list beats FW models (which my meta runs a lot of, damn Battle of Keylek Scorpius..)

/shrugs

FW models may be expensive, but the Tantalus seems to be one of the few (at least IMHO) that looks very easy to just convert one of your own out of a pair of Raiders.

The Tantalus also comes out of HS, which is generally not a hotly-competed slot for DE lists (unlike FA, for example).

Of course, if you just like beating FW lists with FW-less lists, then that's cool too; ultimately, games are supposed to be fun. But so to is 40K a modeling hobby, so it might be cool to convert one up, particularly given the potential look on your opponent's face when you perfectly DS a Tantalus loaded with a buttload of Grotesques, an Armor of Misery Succubus, and a Shadowseer with Mask of Shadows, into his rear lines.

As an aside, I'd say that the Keylek-Scorpius is likely to become even more common, as it can pretty handily wreck Windriders.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I find this to be the optimal setup for Kabalites:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 80 pts.
• 1 Raider, 90 pts. (DL, Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

10-20 TL Poison Shots in a 3+ Jinking mobile platform with a single AT weapon. I've got 4 of those in my army as the core.

I am happy that you seem to be getting mileage out of those, but they really are not optimal. Your talking about 170 points for 10 TL shots at 24" range when a venom puts out 12 shots at 36" for only 105 and the guys inside can camp an objective to boot. Biggest issue with gunboat raiders that I have besides the overpriced cost is the marriage you are forced with between the total expense. Think about it, not only are you dumping 170pts into mediocre damage that is one dimensional (anti-infantry) but in order for the unit to operate effectively, it needs to remain inside the raider.

THE best way to run DE kabalites is MSU. It's the only really efficient way to build in lasting durability on such delicate units. Make several small units and make your opponents waste shots on single cheap targets. As soon as you deploy those 170pt tissue paper troops your allowing your opponent to make easy decisions about target priority.

This isn't even considering that in order to maximize their potential you are forced to get them to within 12" of the enemy. This puts them into template range, grenade range and assault range. If you want to steal that objective your forced to get even closer, or dump the occupants earlier and throw away their ride.

I had mixed results in 6th using gunboats and that was before the crew could get hit with templates and maelstrom meant getting closer earlier.

I'm not saying you can't make it work, but the much more consistent build is spamming cheap 5 man units in venoms or raiders. Also don't forget that if your playing RSR you already forfeit Obsec, so why not just take empty or near empty venoms over gunboats? I mean an Archon gets you a venom, as well as his 10pt lahmaen before even using FA slots. Add chain snares for only 5pts and you can even tank shock units off objectives, meaning you still have a use after jinking.

Food for thought.

I agree about Venoms over Gunboats. You can get 6 venoms with 5 warriors in each for less points than the 4 gunboats and you'll have more wounds inflicted at every range bracket (0-36"). You also have your targets spread around more so you're not as adversely affected with each unit that gets targeted by the opponent and it gives you more ability to grab/contest more objectives simultaneously. The venoms can move 12" and still shoot at near full effect too while the raiders can only move 6" without causing their occupants to snapshoot (which you may consider balanced by the venoms themselves snapshooting after jinking but I try to keep that to a minimum with cover and their invuln save).

I like kabalites. They work well. I have usually used the multiple venoms route, but I have started to like the gunboats... I like them. They are less MSU and more kick to the teeth.

Deamon wrote:
Possible yes? You pack your list with venoms, warriors with blasters, Reavers, Scourge, RJF and a couple of ravagers. You had a scalpel squadron to give you the option of null deploy. Such a list perform resonably well but you're going to fight uphill battles against Eldar (like everyone), Necrons (also like everyone) and anything that's heavily mechanized.

so technically Reavers are more wych cult, and thus not part of a Kabal army.

Scourges are different too, although they dont really fit in with anything.

You are talking Warriors, Trueborn, and vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Tantalus is the closest thing DE have to a Superheavy. 12/12/10, 5 HPs and the ability to take NS for 3+ Jink and/or the good ol' Flickerfield for a 5++ save. Not to mention the 16-man transport capacity and old-Reaver-esque ability to semi-Vector Strike enemy units.

Obviously, the FW price for the thing is outright scary.

The tantalus also can hold an archon and 7 wraithguard with wraithscythes.

All dropping down with pinpoint accuracy and putting their template really wherever they want.

It's not the most efficient unit, but it will delete anything that doesnt have invisibility cast on it.

The reason Raider gunboats work for me is twofold:
1. 3+ Jink - Whilst they do explode every once in a while when that single penetration gets through, the amount of times I passed those saves is almost ridiculous. This is the kind of survivability Venoms simply don't have. Of course, Venoms have superior effective range to protect them indirectly, but this takes us to...
2. TL - re-rolls are awesome. Particularly when you need to shot down that bloody Flyrant with Snap Shots.

I suspect that if I were to run Venoms, they'd get blown up to smithereens at record time where the Raiders refuse to go down with 3+ Jink that has negligible effect on the latter's firepower. Only opinion, though.

Also, what happens when a Venom army confronts a Raider army? I actually did play a game like that once (I'm the only regular DE player at a local tournament series). Poor Venoms did not get to shoot much before the DLs forced them to Jink. Or explode.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
I find this to be the optimal setup for Kabalites:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 80 pts.
• 1 Raider, 90 pts. (DL, Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

10-20 TL Poison Shots in a 3+ Jinking mobile platform with a single AT weapon. I've got 4 of those in my army as the core.

I am happy that you seem to be getting mileage out of those, but they really are not optimal. Your talking about 170 points for 10 TL shots at 24" range when a venom puts out 12 shots at 36" for only 105 and the guys inside can camp an objective to boot. Biggest issue with gunboat raiders that I have besides the overpriced cost is the marriage you are forced with between the total expense. Think about it, not only are you dumping 170pts into mediocre damage that is one dimensional (anti-infantry) but in order for the unit to operate effectively, it needs to remain inside the raider.

THE best way to run DE kabalites is MSU. It's the only really efficient way to build in lasting durability on such delicate units. Make several small units and make your opponents waste shots on single cheap targets. As soon as you deploy those 170pt tissue paper troops your allowing your opponent to make easy decisions about target priority.

This isn't even considering that in order to maximize their potential you are forced to get them to within 12" of the enemy. This puts them into template range, grenade range and assault range. If you want to steal that objective your forced to get even closer, or dump the occupants earlier and throw away their ride.

I had mixed results in 6th using gunboats and that was before the crew could get hit with templates and maelstrom meant getting closer earlier.

I'm not saying you can't make it work, but the much more consistent build is spamming cheap 5 man units in venoms or raiders. Also don't forget that if your playing RSR you already forfeit Obsec, so why not just take empty or near empty venoms over gunboats? I mean an Archon gets you a venom, as well as his 10pt lahmaen before even using FA slots. Add chain snares for only 5pts and you can even tank shock units off objectives, meaning you still have a use after jinking.

Food for thought.

I've stopped using gunboats for these reasons.

I agree that TL is useful, as is the ability to jink and still fire normally. The problem I have is that they're rarely useful enough. With an optimum range of 12", they have to get *really* close to their target - often putting them in range of a lot of nasty firepower, and even potential assaults. What's more, I found that they just didn't do enough damage to compensate for this. Venoms might have less resilience when it comes to jinking, but 36" gives them a lot of protection in its own right. Furthermore, a Venom can reposition 12" and still shoot to maximum effect - whilst a gunboat that moves over 6" will cause its passengers to snapshot.

*shrugs* Maybe gunboats work better in different metas.

I think Venoms would work better in my meta.

I have a Tau friend (so Ignores Cover army wide) who has also picked up CenturionStar (and is looking at reliable ways to get perfect timing), while also having a Relic Whirlwind Scorpius with Battle of Keylek for Ignores Cover (partly due to new Windriders). In fact most of the Imperium players sport Whirlwinds with Keylek. The Chaos player also uses thre Helldrakes, oy oy :/ so a Venom with an Invulnerable is probably going to be better than a Raider...

This is very likely a local meta thing. There's few Ignores Cover weapons used in my meta and even when some appear they rarely are a valid threat against a Raider. What I have to contend with is usually melta (drops) and/or autocannons. Or Dakka Flyants. Generally, things where I definitely prefer to 3+ Jink than to rely on a 5++ or rape my firepower with 4+ Jink.

 SarisKhan wrote:
The reason Raider gunboats work for me is twofold:
1. 3+ Jink - Whilst they do explode every once in a while when that single penetration gets through, the amount of times I passed those saves is almost ridiculous. This is the kind of survivability Venoms simply don't have. Of course, Venoms have superior effective range to protect them indirectly, but this takes us to...
2. TL - re-rolls are awesome. Particularly when you need to shot down that bloody Flyrant with Snap Shots.

I suspect that if I were to run Venoms, they'd get blown up to smithereens at record time where the Raiders refuse to go down with 3+ Jink that has negligible effect on the latter's firepower. Only opinion, though.

Also, what happens when a Venom army confronts a Raider army? I actually did play a game like that once (I'm the only regular DE player at a local tournament series). Poor Venoms did not get to shoot much before the DLs forced them to Jink. Or explode.

I think you'd be surprised on their survivability. Having 6 venoms gives you 12 hull points that are better spread out for when opponents do get lucky explodes results so the most you ever lose at a time is 2 hull points (and less riders lost per explosion because they're also spread out better). The 4 raiders also have 12 hull points, but you lose 3 of them from a single explodes result. Most opponents typically have 2 or 3 good anti armor options, so against the raider army that leaves 75% of your fleet under attack while with the venoms only half of your forces are being threated by the same number of units. 3+ jinks are tougher in some cases, but so are the 5++ in other cases when opponents have ignores cover weapons for example.

To point 2, yes TL is awesome, but if you run the numbers for how many hits you'll get at each range bracket, then you only get a couple more hits in the 0-12 range while losing a substantial number of hits in the 12-24 and not even competing with the average of 48 hits at 24-36 the venoms get. I've killed more flyrants by taking first turn and killing them from 36" range before I have to snapshoot at them though.

If you need the venoms to have some anti armor, you could give each squad a blaster for a similar effect since the 6 venoms still cost less than the 4 raiders. Personally, I choose to get my antitank from other units and keep my units specialized, but many do like to do the more versatile approach.

Exactly, I hear too many DE players harp on how well TL mitigates flyrants in swoop mode, but the numbers and at least my experience just don't back that up. On average your getting just under 6 hits in RF range if your somehow still full strength (no escape hurts) which will yield 3 wounds for 1 failed save, if he failed his grounding check it's bitter sweep because now he has the option to assault.

Any nid player worth his salt is also taking E-grubs, s5 ap4 templates with haywire. If your close enough to TL-RF a flyrant then he is or was close enough to ruin you back or first. I mean he is going to do a HP ~84% of the time and ~16% of the time he is also penetrating you with JUST the haywire. THEN he has a ~33% shot at an additional HP fallowed by a second ~16% chance at another pen. Either pen can explode but don't forget how crippling even an immobilized result is (no more jink) or a stunned. Then he shoots 6 bs 4 TL s6 shots lol.

IMHO nid flying circus is more of a reason not to field raider gunboats.

I also see more ignores cover then you when compared to the meta you described. Not only that, but when people aren't using IC they seem to prefer high volume s6-7. I don't see much single shot high S AT in my area anymore, so jinking is much less reliable.

It sounds like Exp for each person depends more on the meta they have to deal with.

My current meta has lots of str 5-6 shots, but not a bunch of ignores cover units/abilities. Tau and eldar of course are the armies I have trouble with...But Reaver jetbikes seem to be a great answer for them(in my EXP).

Hm, I need to think about the Venoms.

Btw, my local meta is mostly SM (Bikers, Centurions, the like), BA, CSM (with the power of FW), Necrons and Tyranids (Dakka Flyants fml).

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It sounds like Exp for each person depends more on the meta they have to deal with.

My current meta has lots of str 5-6 shots, but not a bunch of ignores cover units/abilities. Tau and eldar of course are the armies I have trouble with...But Reaver jetbikes seem to be a great answer for them(in my EXP).

If you don't mind me asking, how do you run your Reavers?

Also, any chance you could go into more detail in terms of how you use them against Tau and Eldar?

 SarisKhan wrote:
Hm, I need to think about the Venoms.

Btw, my local meta is mostly SM (Bikers, Centurions, the like), BA, CSM (with the power of FW), Necrons and Tyranids (Dakka Flyants fml).

Well wouldnt Gunboats be great in the current meta you are in? Venoms are nice,and I only use them for Wracks or Incubi with archon. Maybe you can just field both venoms and Gunboats? Venoms can be aggressive , Gunboats can be Objective holder/Fighters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
It sounds like Exp for each person depends more on the meta they have to deal with.

My current meta has lots of str 5-6 shots, but not a bunch of ignores cover units/abilities. Tau and eldar of course are the armies I have trouble with...But Reaver jetbikes seem to be a great answer for them(in my EXP).

If you don't mind me asking, how do you run your Reavers?

Also, any chance you could go into more detail in terms of how you use them against Tau and Eldar?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1800/617489.page

This is the list I used against my recent battle against Eldar. The Bikes were the reason I was able to win.

Against tau, This list works, But you just have to keep them out of LOS or give them more threats to worry about more than the bikes.

Has anyone had any success with running a 20-strong Warrior squad (2 blasters) with a Haemy and WWP? No scatter DS and a lot of shooty dice (for a turn, anyway).