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Basically I would like to know what types of units are cheesy at: 500, 750, 1000 pts. Also, please don't say Eldar . Thanks in advance!

500: anything that beats me.

750: anything that beats me.

1000: anything that beats me.

 Peregrine wrote:
500: anything that beats me.

750: anything that beats me.

1000: anything that beats me.

I was thinking more about stuff like flyers, Vehicles, MCs etc.

The point is that "cheese" is always subjective and defined primarily by "my list can't beat this". You're never going to get a universal definition because one person's "cheese" is another person's "you really think that's a good enough list?".

AH. Ok, but as a general guideline is it not cool to bring flyers to 500pts?

Depends entirely on what you're bringing it against, and what kind of flyer it is. Some are more-cheesy than others, while some armies have more available Skyfire units at low points-values than others.

Nifty, Thanks.

A Warhound at 750 is something I imagine many would consider cheesy, as I do not know a lot of armies who have the tools to deal with it.

My general opinion is that it is cheesy and unsportsmanlike to bring flyers or superheavies in games at or under 1000 points.

My only justification for this is that most often the players at those points levels are newer to the game and less experienced, and as such are most likely not running optimized armies for those point levels.

In any case, I have found that Warhammer 40k does not work well in terms of balance at points levels less than 1500 points.

Raven Cowl wrote:
AH. Ok, but as a general guideline is it not cool to bring flyers to 500pts?

Like I said, there is no single answer. Some people would consider it TFG behavior, some people would wonder why you spent half your points on something that can't claim objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
My only justification for this is that most often the players at those points levels are newer to the game and less experienced, and as such are most likely not running optimized armies for those point levels.

Maybe in your area, but in general this isn't a very good assumption. A 500-1000 point game is appealing even for experienced players with large collections because it's a lot faster to play and it's much easier to haul a 1000 point army to a store than a 2000 point army.

In games of less than 1000 points, do not bring:

1. Fliers
2. Monstrous creatures

Or, in general, anything that costs 250 points or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raven Cowl wrote:
AH. Ok, but as a general guideline is it not cool to bring flyers to 500pts?

No. Leave fliers, riptides, wraithknights and flyrants at home at games of 500 points. Or 750. Probably 1000 too.

Actually, let's simplify this. Don't take anything that can't reliably be killed with a plasma gun to games of 1000 points or less..

Traditio wrote:
2. Monstrous creatures

IOW, don't play Tyranids.

Or, in general, anything that costs 250 points or more.

Is that 250 points as printed in the codex, or 250 points after including your bizarre "Kant would call you TFG if you don't pay an extra 50 points for that" tax that you expect people to use?

Actually, let's simplify this. Don't take anything that can't reliably be killed with a plasma gun.

Let's simplify this even more: don't take a list where your best gun is a plasma gun and then demand that your opponent nerf their own list to match your poor choices.

Fliers along with Knights and most MCs below 1500 I think are cheesy.

Flyers at 1000pts are perfectly acceptable, but I limit myself to one. Other than that, this is the level where the game really starts to kick off. I wouldn't baulk at a Superheavy if I had prior warning in a friendly game.

Nothing bigger than a tank in 750pt games. No Gargantuans, Superheavies, blah blah blah. A lot of armies, and ESPECIALLY armies built by new players, just don't have an answer to those. Sure, I can fit a Baneblade into 750pts in some lists, but that doesn't mean I should. I'd be fine with a flyer here too. A Flyrant or Stormraven isn't the end of the world at 750pts. There should be a decent amount of guns on the table to bring it down if need be.

At 500pts, Cheese is really only two things. Cheesy Unbound, and we all know what that is so I shouldn't need to elaborate, and a pure Bike list. Bikes are ridiculously cheap and can be the answer for a lot of things. But, because it's not available to all armies as troop choices, it can be hard to have an effective counter. 500pts of Tyranids doesn't get a player crap, and five bikes with two Grav WILL kill any of the heavier stuff. It just can't be matched when nearly 200pts are sank into the friggin HQ choice we have to make as Nids.

Peregrine wrote:IOW, don't play Tyranids.

Pretty sure that there are non-MCs in the tyrranids codex.

Is that 250 points as printed in the codex, or 250 points after including your bizarre "Kant would call you TFG if you don't pay an extra 50 points for that" tax that you expect people to use?

As printed.

Let's simplify this even more: don't take a list where your best gun is a plasma gun and then demand that your opponent nerf their own list to match your poor choices.

The CAD FOC requires an HQ and two base troops. The cheapest space marine HQ is a librarian at 65 points (I don't even own a librarian). The cheapest troop choice is a 5 man scout squad. 55 X 2 = 110. 110 + 65 = 175. I now have only 325 to play with (in a 500 point game). You want me to deal with fliers? I either need an anti-air vehicle, or else, I need to take a devastator squad with flakk missiles. My opponent may take monstrous creatures or he may take fliers. I have no idea. Ok. I'll take a devastator squad with flakk missile launchers. I won't even bother to upgrade sarge to veteran status. Ok. I'm up to 355 points. I have less than 150 points left to play with, and as far as I know, my opponent is playing an ork hord.

In point of fact, I don't even own a librarian. The cheapest HQ I could bring in actuality is a captain with power fist. All of my marines with signum backpacks are painted to veteran status. I own a single scout squad with sniper rifles and a missile launcher and a sarge with pistol and sword. So, I would probably just bring a couple of tactical squads to pay the "troop tax." 70 X 2 = 140 + 115 = 255 + 180 (the devastator squad) = 435. You bring more than one flier or monstrous creature, and I'm automatically screwed from the get go. Pretty much just because I play space marines.

Traditio wrote:
Pretty sure that there are non-MCs in the tyrranids codex.

Pretty sure that the basic concept of the Tyranid army is that you take MCs and swarms, not just the little stuff. This is like saying "you can place space marines, but you can't take anything with power armor or terminator armor except a single captain with no upgrades as your HQ, and you can't take any vehicles". It's technically possible to do it, but nobody is going to enjoy such a stupid restriction.

You want me to deal with fliers? I either need an anti-air vehicle, or else, I need to take a devastator squad with flakk missiles.

Or anything that can fire snap shots, or anything that can score objectives and win the game while ignoring the flyer. And TBH flakk missiles suck so badly you're better off buying lascannons and snap firing them most of the time.

I'll take a devastator squad with flakk missile launchers.

Great. Now you have a squad that can kill flyers, MCs, and light/medium vehicles. What's your problem?

The CAD FOC requires an HQ and two base troops.

So what? Play unbound if you don't like the CAD requirements.

The cheapest HQ I could bring in actuality is a captain with power fist.

And that's entirely your fault. The fact that you only have one HQ model and didn't even bother to give it good upgrades doesn't mean that your opponent should be obligated to bring their own list down to your level. Why not, instead of coming up with all kinds of arbitrary rules about what your opponent should be allowed to take, spend $5 on conversion parts and build a librarian?

All of my marines with signum backpacks are painted to veteran status.

So what? Fancy painting is irrelevant. Play them as regular marines if you want.

Pretty much just because I play space marines.

No, because you play space marines and don't want to buy effective units.

Peregrine wrote:Pretty sure that the basic concept of the Tyranid army is that you take MCs and swarms, not just the little stuff. This is like saying "you can place space marines, but you can't take anything with power armor or terminator armor except a single captain with no upgrades as your HQ, and you can't take any vehicles". It's technically possible to do it, but nobody is going to enjoy such a stupid restriction.

You'd have to play a captain and just scouts. There's one and precisely one entry in the codex which is not a vehicle, or else, isn't in power or terminator armor. There's only 1 entry in the tyrranids codex that isn't a monstrous creature?

Or anything that can fire snap shots, or anything that can score objectives and win the game while ignoring the flyer.

At 500 points, please explain to me, without using a dedicated anti air vehicle or using flakk missiles (only even semi reliable, for that matter, presupposing IF chapter tactics), a reliable way to take down a flier in the space marines codex.

Great. Now you have a squad that can kill flyers, MCs, and light/medium vehicles. What's your problem?

That took an 180 point unit, my opponent may or may not even be using MCs or fliers (if he's playing an ork hord, the numbers are against me), and if he takes more than one, it wouldn't be enough, and I don't have enough points for a second one. If he's playing dual flyrants (this has actually happened before at a relatively low point limit), that missile launcher unit is going to die, probably turn one, and the rest of my army won't be able to take them down. They are just going to be twiddling their thumbs the entire game waiting to die.

So what? Play unbound if you don't like the CAD requirements.

That's newfangled 6th edition nonsense.

And that's entirely your fault. The fact that you only have one HQ model and didn't even bother to give it good upgrades doesn't mean that your opponent should be obligated to bring their own list down to your level. Why not, instead of coming up with all kinds of arbitrary rules about what your opponent should be allowed to take, spend $5 on conversion parts and build a librarian?

I play crimson fists and generally plan for an 1850 points list with Pedro. I don't really need every HQ in the book.

ASo what? Fancy painting is irrelevant. Play them as regular marines if you want.

But...but...that would offend my aesthetic sensibilities. Normal crimson fists only have one red fist. My veterans have two.

No, because you play space marines and don't want to buy effective units.

What would your anti-MC, anti-flier (and possibly anti-horde...because, again, it could be nothing but ork boys that we're going to be facing) 500 points space marine list look like? Please. Illumine me. Give me a list that uses the standard CAD FOC.

Peregrine wrote: "Kant would call you TFG if you don't pay an extra 50 points for that" tax that you expect people to use?

As a student of philosophy, I wholeheartedly agree with Kant-bashing. Nietzsche prefers house rules.

SharkoutofWata wrote:Flyers at 1000pts are perfectly acceptable, but I limit myself to one. Other than that, this is the level where the game really starts to kick off. I wouldn't baulk at a Superheavy if I had prior warning in a friendly game.

Nothing bigger than a tank in 750pt games. No Gargantuans, Superheavies, blah blah blah. A lot of armies, and ESPECIALLY armies built by new players, just don't have an answer to those. Sure, I can fit a Baneblade into 750pts in some lists, but that doesn't mean I should. I'd be fine with a flyer here too. A Flyrant or Stormraven isn't the end of the world at 750pts. There should be a decent amount of guns on the table to bring it down if need be.

At 500pts, Cheese is really only two things. Cheesy Unbound, and we all know what that is so I shouldn't need to elaborate, and a pure Bike list. Bikes are ridiculously cheap and can be the answer for a lot of things. But, because it's not available to all armies as troop choices, it can be hard to have an effective counter. 500pts of Tyranids doesn't get a player crap, and five bikes with two Grav WILL kill any of the heavier stuff. It just can't be matched when nearly 200pts are sank into the friggin HQ choice we have to make as Nids.

Exalted for truth.

The game simply isn't balanced until about 1000 points, and really gets started at 1500. Small games can be fun, sure, but I find the game much more enjoyable in the 1500-2000 points range sweet spot.

Also, its another thread where Traditio and Peregrine throw down!

Can this thread contain this epic showdown, or will the Ultramodrines themselves have to intervene again to contain its terrible power?

If you absolutely have to have tools to answer every possibility then you probably shouldn't be playing at 500 points in the first place. If it's even possible to build a TAC list anymore, it's not going to happen when you have 1,000 points or less to work with.

TheNewBlood wrote:As a student of philosophy, I wholeheartedly agree with Kant-bashing. Nietzsche prefers house rules.

Start a thread on this in a different part of the forums, or else, shoot me a PM. I'd be glad to discuss the matter. (Note, I'm not a Kantian, although I do share some of Kant's sentiments...unfortunately, his ethics is metaphysically bankrupt.)

Also, its another thread where Traditio and Peregrine throw down!

Or not. Peregrine, I tell you what:

You undoubtedly have what I said in the previous thread in mind in your comments. For the sake of argument, let us assume that we abstract from considerations of justice and what it means to be TFG. This much is obvious:

If I have pedro, a predator and a couple of tac squads, and you have two flyrants, the game won't really be much fun for either one of us. I mean, we could play that game, if you want. But it's going to be pretty boring. Even if I switch out pedro and the predator for other things, I don't think that we're going to be playing an exciting game if you have two flyrants. So, if you want to play, why not switch to something else? Sure, you won't get a gauranteed win. But so what? Bring at least an HQ and 2 troop choices, and bullets are going to be flying in what has the potential to be a truly action packed game.

And chances are, how many 500 points games are being played by super competitive players as tournament prep? So, sure, play that game if you want. But if I see a riptide or an airplane at 500 points, I am just going to roll my eyes the moment I see it. I'll still play, but i may end up conceding (politely, of course) on turn 2 or 3.

I'll try to say one or two for each army I've faced along the way and completely resented/ wanted to throw the table at the other person at 500/1000 pts keep in mind this is partial from my Ork/Tau perspective

Orks: Any planes

Tau: Riptide or Firewarrior and Ethereal spam./ Multiple Hammerheads

Space Marines: Melta Sternguard in Drop pod/ Land Raiders and Stormravens

Tyranids: More than 1 MC including your HQ Any FMC including HQ and Tervigons

Eldar: I'm just gonna leave this one alone

CSM: Any named HQ looking at you Kharn and any beefed up Daemon prince(sure its like half the army but its half that wont die if I'm orks.)/ Also at 1000 Sorcerer spam.

IG: Artillery spam ie more than one large blast tank and at 1000 more than 3.

Necrons: Canoptek Spyders/ Ghost Ark spam

Now for some stuff I've used that I considered cheesy after looking back anywhere under 1000 points

Orks: pts1000 brought 2 burna bommas

pts750 had 24 lootas

pts500 Stormboy Squad with Painboy on bike attatched

pts500 Mega ork unit of 30 boyz with a painboy and eavy armor and a Boss with the Big bosspole from the Ghazghkull supplement.(on a small table)

Traditio wrote:
You'd have to play a captain and just scouts. There's one and precisely one entry in the codex which is not a vehicle, or else, isn't in power or terminator armor. There's only 1 entry in the tyrranids codex that isn't a monstrous creature?

There's more than one, but that's not the point. Removing MCs below 1000 points rips the heart out of the Tyranid army and is something that very few Tyranid players would consider a reasonable idea.

At 500 points, please explain to me, without using a dedicated anti air vehicle or using flakk missiles (only even semi reliable, for that matter, presupposing IF chapter tactics), a reliable way to take down a flier in the space marines codex.

Why do you need a reliable way? Ignore the flyer, claim the objectives, win the game. If they spent 1/3 to 1/2 of their points on a single unit which will probably only be on the table for half the game then just focus on removing their scoring units and completing the mission objectives.

That's newfangled 6th edition nonsense.

I see, so you'll just conveniently dismiss the options and then complain that you have no options left.

I play crimson fists and generally plan for an 1850 points list with Pedro. I don't really need every HQ in the book.

Apparently you do, because you just spent a lot of words complaining about how terrible your HQ options are in games below 1000 points. Honestly, you probably could have converted a librarian model in the time you spent complaining about your lack of HQs.

But...but...that would offend my aesthetic sensibilities. Normal crimson fists only have one red fist. My veterans have two.

So why is this your opponent's fault, and why should they be obligated to change their list to protect your aesthetic sensibilities?

 Peregrine wrote:
The point is that "cheese" is always subjective and defined primarily by "my list can't beat this". You're never going to get a universal definition because one person's "cheese" is another person's "you really think that's a good enough list?".

yeah but there are worse and better list, based on design alone. a 500pts game against armies with crissis or jetbikes are pointless for armies like IG or orcs. They are a counter to everything. Summoning lists can be stupid too, and not just in w40k.

Peregrine wrote:Apparently you do, because you just spent a lot of words complaining about how terrible your HQ options are in games below 1000 points. Honestly, you probably could have converted a librarian model in the time you spent complaining about your lack of HQs.

You have my interest. Would you expand on this?

So why is this your opponent's fault, and why should they be obligated to change their list to protect your aesthetic sensibilities?

Fair enough. Anyways, if the OP is asking about what is and is not acceptable in 1000 points games or less, my assumption is that he's more interested in casual games/fun rather than comeptitive victories. If we're going just for fun, I think that I set out pretty reasonable guidelines, no? I do suppose it may not work for tyrranids.

Traditio wrote:
You have my interest. Would you expand on this?

A librarian is just a model in power armor with a force weapon. Glue a melee weapon to a power armor marine, conversion finished.

Acceptable is what ever is legal and accepted in his area. In my FW is a total no can do. So taking FW would be bad. Everything else, as long as it comes from a legal up to date codex or WD, is good.

And that does mean in some cases you get to play vs 500pts that are realy unfun to play against. like a jetbikes army that is never in range when you want to shot them and always in range on their own turn.

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
You have my interest. Would you expand on this?

A librarian is just a model in power armor with a force weapon. Glue a melee weapon to a power armor marine, conversion finished.

Interesting. So, the list I run is basically Pedro/Crimson Fists and the Rynn City-1 Justice Department (basically, sternguard who are painted to look like Judge Dredd). Apparently, librarians can use telepathy, and when I read that, I was like: "Psi judges! " So this is totally doable? I could take, for example, a sternguard model and attach a force weapon? I wonder about the psychic hood, though? Doesn't this need to be represented?

Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
You have my interest. Would you expand on this?

A librarian is just a model in power armor with a force weapon. Glue a melee weapon to a power armor marine, conversion finished.

Interesting. So, the list I run is basically Pedro/Crimson Fists and the Rynn City-1 Justice Department (basically, sternguard who are painted to look like Judge Dredd). Apparently, librarians can use telepathy, and when I read that, I was like: "Psi judges! " So this is totally doable? I could take, for example, a sternguard model and attach a force weapon? I wonder about the psychic hood, though? Doesn't this need to be represented?

Trim down a shoulder pad to you needs. It's the right basic shape and is what my Blood Angle Librarian has.

At 750 or 1000 points I would say only superheavies are a bit stupid. Taking one or two flyer's isnt even bad, as Peregrine said earlier they have a large chunk that cant contest or claim objectives. Also most fliers are easy to take down once you can hit it, or just ignore them. It's when somone wants to spam some flyrants or something similar that it gets dumb.

You may as well just take whatever you like. Between Unbound, allies, whether or not you want to take Forge World, formations, massive imbalances between army books, massive imbalances within army books, random tables, Dataslates and all the rest of it, the idea of "cheese" goes beyond subjectivity and becomes nigh-meaningless. And if you impose restrictions on yourself, you obviously can't expect other people to abide by them.

It's a strange issue. I probably wouldn't like to play against a Knight or Riptide or whatever at less than 1000 points because it'd be hard for me to win if my list wasn't right. But...that's not a good enough reason for me to shame the other person into not using the models they invested time and money in. If I go for a game I have to assume that there'll be stuff that will give me a hard time. So I'd probably just play the game anyway, give it a go, and if I didn't win...move on with my life.