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Cheese IMHO is anything that doesn't fit the fluff and spirit of the game, because that is a thing still (whether it should be is another question). For all the talk from people like Peregrine (whom I normally agree with) about "Its your fault for not taking good choices" the problem is that good choices are so disparate and sometimes mess with what someone wants to play. Should someone really be punished for wanting a fluffy SM force with Tactical Squads instead of spamming bikes because bikes are better, or taking CSM squads instead of Plague Marines because they aren't playing a Nurgle force? I don't think so.

While that's a flaw of the game, it appears to be part of the big issue and divide amongst 40k players because you NEED to find out if your opponent is playing by only taking good choices or if they're playing more balanced and fluffy so you know if you'll have an enjoyable game without getting creamed. And that can be a problem.

There's always the jackass who will bring the high-end stuff to small games; in my day it was taking 3 Wraithlords in a 500 point list. Sometimes it's not by intent to be a jerk, maybe they have Saim-Hann Eldar and should be taking Jetbikes, but it's part of the biggest issue in 40k is that you can have these questions come up constantly.

In fact, questions like this are the reason I constantly shelve playing 40k again. I don't want to bring a fluffy army and have to deal with garbage or have to spend time trying to talk my opponent to play stupid so I have a chance at winning. No other game is like that.

 Fezman wrote:

It's a strange issue. I probably wouldn't like to play against a Knight or Riptide or whatever at less than 1000 points because it'd be hard for me to win if my list wasn't right. But...that's not a good enough reason for me to shame the other person into not using the models they invested time and money in. If I go for a game I have to assume that there'll be stuff that will give me a hard time. So I'd probably just play the game anyway, give it a go, and if I didn't win...move on with my life.

But it IS a good enough reason to not play at that point level. Want to use a Riptide or something? We can play at 1250, where my army has the points available to handle a threat like that. Want to use Superheavies? Then let's play at 1850 so I can make a list that has reasonable answers to it. But, at 750pts on a 4x4 table, a Riptide can be king very easily. Able to shoot literally the entire board and everything on it. There is nothing wrong with turning down a game or asking for MORE of a game to give yourself a chance.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Fezman wrote:

It's a strange issue. I probably wouldn't like to play against a Knight or Riptide or whatever at less than 1000 points because it'd be hard for me to win if my list wasn't right. But...that's not a good enough reason for me to shame the other person into not using the models they invested time and money in. If I go for a game I have to assume that there'll be stuff that will give me a hard time. So I'd probably just play the game anyway, give it a go, and if I didn't win...move on with my life.

But it IS a good enough reason to not play at that point level. Want to use a Riptide or something? We can play at 1250, where my army has the points available to handle a threat like that. Want to use Superheavies? Then let's play at 1850 so I can make a list that has reasonable answers to it. But, at 750pts on a 4x4 table, a Riptide can be king very easily. Able to shoot literally the entire board and everything on it. There is nothing wrong with turning down a game or asking for MORE of a game to give yourself a chance.

I agree that if your opponent won't agree to make changes, and you don't want to take on their list, then refusing the game is your only option (personally that's not something I'd ever like to do because I don't like the thought of someone turning up to play then being excluded). I think it's more of a shame that situations like that can even arise in the first place. The idea that a game can be so out of whack that someone could refuse to play you just based on your list, or that one unit can dominate, is one of the reasons I now only play 40K once in a blue moon.

Honestly, there are quite a few cheese flavors.

At least from experience, other than Eldar, I'd say the cheesiest armies to choose would be Inquisition/GK, Tau, Imperial Knights, Space Marines, and Imperial Guard.

Imperial Guard:
-Bring tanks and cheap infantry to low point games to just make a giant mess on the table top.
-Mid-high point games, flyer spam, artillery spam, conscript infantry blob madness
-My favorite is conscripts + giant Leman Russ party with Pask throwing out cheese with either a vanquisher or punisher cannon. If points allow it, a few vendettas with kasrkin or vets for a bit o' flair.

Before I really got into the crunch, my brother would just spam his damn Tau battlesuits, tetras with markerlights, and fire warriors.
-Almost made me regret buying him that R'varna for his B'day, and those tetras and all those fancy gun bits from FW as stocking stuffers...
-Definitely made me stop forgetting that the eradicator cannon exists, and also introduced me to the joys of the wyvern. I still loves me some griffon mortar carrier tho, good scratchbuild and early game memories there

I am not sure if henchmen with coteaz are as scary as they used to be, but I know most GK lists with psycannons and a dreadknight are gonna hurt.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Cheese IMHO is anything that doesn't fit the fluff and spirit of the game, because that is a thing still (whether it should be is another question). For all the talk from people like Peregrine (whom I normally agree with) about "Its your fault for not taking good choices" the problem is that good choices are so disparate and sometimes mess with what someone wants to play. Should someone really be punished for wanting a fluffy SM force with Tactical Squads instead of spamming bikes because bikes are better, or taking CSM squads instead of Plague Marines because they aren't playing a Nurgle force? I don't think so.

While that's a flaw of the game, it appears to be part of the big issue and divide amongst 40k players because you NEED to find out if your opponent is playing by only taking good choices or if they're playing more balanced and fluffy so you know if you'll have an enjoyable game without getting creamed. And that can be a problem.

There's always the jackass who will bring the high-end stuff to small games; in my day it was taking 3 Wraithlords in a 500 point list. Sometimes it's not by intent to be a jerk, maybe they have Saim-Hann Eldar and should be taking Jetbikes, but it's part of the biggest issue in 40k is that you can have these questions come up constantly.

In fact, questions like this are the reason I constantly shelve playing 40k again. I don't want to bring a fluffy army and have to deal with garbage or have to spend time trying to talk my opponent to play stupid so I have a chance at winning. No other game is like that.

While I agree with most of this post, I'd have to disagree about talking to your opponent. Sure, you shouldn't "have" to, but it's the same thing in most games. I could play my bud in Magic, and I have basically some starter decks with a few cards thrown in from packs. So, he plays fun decks that he wants to try out. If he wants to play a stupid deck, he lets me know beforehand. In 40k, there are people who bring 3 Knights at 1500 points, and so I just wouldn't play them. But with my girlfriend, she builds a list of CSM, and so I specifically play easier stuff to deal with. It actually ends up being more fun when we communicate and make a game we both look forward to playing. That's the spirit of the game.

That being said, if someone rolled up with a "casual" list of Eldar and ran tons of Jetbikes and a Wraithknight, I'd A. bring an equally "casual" list and stomp them, or B. not play that person, as that is my right in this game. Hence, I don't play leagues anymore, and would never in my right mind join a tournament.

Traditio wrote:
In games of less than 1000 points, do not bring:

1. Fliers
2. Monstrous creatures

Or, in general, anything that costs 250 points or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Raven Cowl wrote:
AH. Ok, but as a general guideline is it not cool to bring flyers to 500pts?

No. Leave fliers, riptides, wraithknights and flyrants at home at games of 500 points. Or 750. Probably 1000 too.

Actually, let's simplify this. Don't take anything that can't reliably be killed with a plasma gun to games of 1000 points or less..

You mean Flying Monstrous Creatures. I am fine with Canifexes and Daemon Princes.

Not so much with anything that flies.

And more than 1 super-heavy.

Ok so it varies between armies but essentially don't spend more than 200 pts on a single unit because you will mess yourself and the opponent up.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Ok so it varies between armies but essentially don't spend more than 200 pts on a single unit because you will mess yourself and the opponent up.

I wouldn't go that far. An average DP runs about 250-300 but can be IDed by Force weapons or anything S10. I would say more just talk to your opponent before bringing anything big. 2 or 3 Land Raiders aren't necessarily deadly, but they're tough to crack.

I think it's funny that a lot of people use the Flyrant example. While Flyrants are great against a large number of targets, normal Space Marines aren't their preferred target.

On average, a Flyrant will kill 3 tactical marines with a salvo. That's a 230pts creature killing 39pts of marines per turn. I would argue that two Flyrants in a 750 points game is easier to beat than at higher point games.

Funny thing is, a melee geared Flying Hive Tyrant is better at lower point games, as it doesn't need to be flying to stay alive and it can just jump from combat to combat.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
I'll try to say one or two for each army I've faced along the way and completely resented/ wanted to throw the table at the other person at 500/1000 pts keep in mind this is partial from my Ork/Tau perspective

Orks: Any planes

Tau: Riptide or Firewarrior and Ethereal spam./ Multiple Hammerheads

Space Marines: Melta Sternguard in Drop pod/ Land Raiders and Stormravens

Tyranids: More than 1 MC including your HQ Any FMC including HQ and Tervigons

Eldar: I'm just gonna leave this one alone

CSM: Any named HQ looking at you Kharn and any beefed up Daemon prince(sure its like half the army but its half that wont die if I'm orks.)/ Also at 1000 Sorcerer spam.

IG: Artillery spam ie more than one large blast tank and at 1000 more than 3.

Necrons: Canoptek Spyders/ Ghost Ark spam

Now for some stuff I've used that I considered cheesy after looking back anywhere under 1000 points

Orks: pts1000 brought 2 burna bommas

pts750 had 24 lootas

pts500 Stormboy Squad with Painboy on bike attatched

pts500 Mega ork unit of 30 boyz with a painboy and eavy armor and a Boss with the Big bosspole from the Ghazghkull supplement.(on a small table)

I don't know. How about just agreeing which unit to bring or not to bring with your opponent? 500 points is a small game. There isn't a lot that can fit in, so there is a high chance that one person might have something the other cannot do anything about.

I'd say it depends on the game. If it's competitive (tournament or league or the like) then take whatever you want that is legal. If it's not then you're going to be walking a fine line trying to figure out what is cheesy and what isn't.

Case in point:

I decided to try and get back in the game a couple years ago (6th ed) with my tau playing against the "new" eldar. I was told I could bring anything or proxy anything and it would be 2000 pts. I did not want to appear cheesy so I didn't proxy any riptides and brought a few rail-sides instead of missile-sides. I got spanked really hard and what kills me is that halfway in the game a spectator walks up and when he sees that I'm playing tau instantly tells my opponent to kill off those dirty cheating tau. It didn't matter what my list was because since I was playing tau I was automatically TFG. Afterwards my opponent basically said my list was weak and boring. If I would have made my list as strong as I could my opponent would have had a better time!

You can't please all people, so you might as well please yourself. If the person is new and you think you have an overwhelming advantage then advise them of that at the start. They'll respect you more and might decide to play you anyways just to see how to fill the holes in their list. If they decide not to play you then you'll probably both be happier anyways.

Now seeing that I play tau and looking through the previous posts, what can I field at 500 points that isn't considered cheese by someone? Previous posters have stated no riptides, hammerheads, firewarriors, ethereals, or crisis suits. This basically leaves me with a fireblade for HQ, and Kroot for troops (although krootox might be viewed as due to the 48" of their gun). Basically unless I'm giving my opponent a turkey shoot ( pun intended), I'm .

Traditio wrote:
In games of less than 1000 points, do not bring:


2. Monstrous creatures

♫Trololololololol♫

Don't feed him guys. It must be a troll, nobody with sense would seriously suggest something as ridiculous as this.

OP: The answer is simple, don't spam powerful units that the opponent will have little to no chance of dealing with. This is especially true at low point levels where counters may be difficult to include due to FOC requirements.

the game is so unbalanced at those super low point levels literally anything could be cheesed out. I personally dont allow super heavies below 3k.

Philosophy aside, if you're concerned about not being cheesy at certain points levels, just compare lists with opponents beforehand and make changes to your lists together so no one has something that can't be killed unless their opponent is OK with it. Start with a list you like then make changes as needed to ensure a fairly balanced game:

P1: "Who wants to play a 1000 point game?"

P2: "I do!"

P1: "Ok, sweet. My army is Dark Eldar and I've got lots of transport vehicles and a flyer".

P2: "Ok. I've got Orks, most of which are foot slogging. Since you've got a plane, I'll swap some of them for an anti-air mek gun so I can fight the plane. I'll also bring some transports and tank bustas to answer your transports."

P1: "Alright, I'll give my guys some lances to deal with your trukks so I can kill them. It looks like we're all set, then. Isn't it nice communicating with each other to set up a reasonable game?"

There is no cheese, only the standard "Is it gak?" roulette of codex releases. And most 40k vets know the game is absolutely awful at 1k in the current format. And the mark of a bad game is needing to have any discussion prior to the game starting on composition of lists just to make it "fair", let alone all the other issues.

If you're playing 1000pts or lower, I suggest trying a two list format like Warmachine, or allowing some % of sideboard. Warhammer is a terrible one list format because the game is all over the place in skew lists making potent TAC nearly impossible save 3-4 codecis. The game needs tournament capable rules even for casual play, unless casual means paying top dollar for rules you have to further fix yourself.

If I played @ 1k, it was usually random team games and I'd salt my list with a little of everything for TAC. The only time I'd go hard is Sisters, but cmon... It's Sisters.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Basically I would like to know what types of units are cheesy at: 500, 750, 1000 pts. Also, please don't say Eldar . Thanks in advance!

Things with good range and mobility tend to do really well in low point games, particularly as most people do no play on a smaller board. Anything under 1000 should be on a 4'X4'. 500 should probably be on something smaller. DE are scray good at 500points, with some venom that just run around and mow infantry down. Obviously scatterbikes are now much better at this.