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So, are they worth it? They can't embark on a transport, they can't shoot, and they're vulnerable for a turn after DS-ing. Is it worth it to buy a few, or should I stick with Raptors?

Daemonkin don't lack ap3.

Get a min squad of them if you want to run a heldrake formation.

Well yeah, AP3, but aren't they too vulnerable?

I've used them before in the formation. I didn't bother deep striking them since my daemonkin list has majority of things moving 12" first turn and there are a lot of other targets that the enemy needs to deal with first so the talons were ignored.
They performed rather well in the game and actually put a few wounds on a wraithknight since they have furious charge and a lot of AP3 attacks. The formation gives them decent S HOW attacks too. Shred is quite useful.

Vulnerability is less an issue than cost IMHO. Unless they're cheaper in Daemonkin (I doubt) you're looking at burning 160 points for a unit that's only marginally better than raptors with a lot less versatility.

They don't come with grenades, you can't give the Champion anything crazier to give them more punch. Ultimately they're great at shredding infantry with 3+ saves, and putting a hurting on MC's that have 3+, but ultimately, they're a pretty big point sink in relation to payback.

What you get for daemonkin is 4 strength 6 attacks per model on the charge (ap3 shred of course). Getting both mark of khorne and daemon of khorne is a nice little bonus. If you take a few gorepacks or maulerfiends to run up with them and support them, I think they're worth it. If you don't have a lot of other units moving up 12" with them, they'll get taken out before they accomplish anything.

str5

Whoops, quite right. Only the possessed hit strength 6.

I think what the designers intended is that they are supposed to deep strike in with the raptors if possible and hopefully give them all some Blind protection on the first turn in whch they cannot assault.

Alcibiades wrote:
I think what the designers intended is that they are supposed to deep strike in with the raptors if possible and hopefully give them all some Blind protection on the first turn in whch they cannot assault.

I think the designers imagine a world without cover where you DS in and dont get shot and then charge in without going through cover and wrecking face using your 250 point unit to shred an 80 point MSU squad and yet you are happy because it is cinematic.

You forgot the part where you deepstrike 6 inch next to the unit and don't faceplant into a mishap. Without using the thrusters because your daemonic fortitude will break the fall just fine.

 Exergy wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
I think what the designers intended is that they are supposed to deep strike in with the raptors if possible and hopefully give them all some Blind protection on the first turn in whch they cannot assault.

I think the designers imagine a world without cover where you DS in and dont get shot and then charge in without going through cover and wrecking face using your 250 point unit to shred an 80 point MSU squad and yet you are happy because it is cinematic.

The Blind stuff is there to keep you from getting shot up, no? And as I said I think they thought you were going to DS more than one unit at once (at least in Khorne Daemonkin)..

I am not saying that the designers actially implemented the idea effectively.

At least daemonkin has icons and instruments , so you can deep strike talons reliably and accurately.

They're a jump unit, they have zero reason to ever Deep Strike. The blinding power is honestly a red herring with no bearing on how good or bad they are.

changemod wrote:
They're a jump unit, they have zero reason to ever Deep Strike. The blinding power is honestly a red herring with no bearing on how good or bad they are.

It IS part of the reason they're expensive though. So at least you can more reliably pull it off...

It doesn't help them with deep-strike at all. 6'' blind radius on a unit that will be scattering 7'' away from their intended drop location on average is utterly useless. Even if you drop on target it's likely you'll hit only one unit due to its small radius, thus you'll still get shot up by anything else in the area for a turn, on top of having to eat overwatch the round they charge.

I'd rather just run them up the board and hide in cover/BLOS.

The expected scatter on a deep strike is 2/3*7" = 4 and 2/3". You can't discount the hit. Warp talons are still worthless.

I don't think the probability of how often it scatters versus not scattering is related to the scatter distance average.

When you deep strike, you will either scatter 0" 1/3rd the time, 1" 0% of the time, 2" 1/54th of the time, etc. The 0" is definitely factored into the average. There's no reason to assume you rolled an arrow.

Or you scatter zero" if you use an icon.

Not saying its a good strategy. Just marginally better than they were before. still pretty bad.

The fact they are daemons of khorne now means they combo with the legacy of 1st war of armageddon... if anyone can make a tactic out of that.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Or you scatter zero" if you use an icon.

Not saying its a good strategy. Just marginally better than they were before. still pretty bad.

The fact they are daemons of khorne now means they combo with the legacy of 1st war of armageddon... if anyone can make a tactic out of that.

I would rather still use Possessed since they're cheaper. That isn't saying much though.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Or you scatter zero" if you use an icon.

Not saying its a good strategy. Just marginally better than they were before. still pretty bad.

The fact they are daemons of khorne now means they combo with the legacy of 1st war of armageddon... if anyone can make a tactic out of that.

Maybe not so much for khorne, but if tzeentch daemonkin become a thing this could be really really nasty, but with a grimoire instead. And you know GW won't care about that, assuming they'll even consider it. Suddenly you have a nigh unkillable jump unit that is ap3 and shred and will blind stuff if you happen to have an icon near. Then again, with all the D flying around these days, unkillable becomes a relative term.

I have used an eight man squad with some success. I use them as a third wave to clean up and assist other units. They are fairly easy to hide. They are another mobile unit which fits into the army quite well. The combination of DoK and MoK is a nice little bonus.

Roknar wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Or you scatter zero" if you use an icon.

Not saying its a good strategy. Just marginally better than they were before. still pretty bad.

The fact they are daemons of khorne now means they combo with the legacy of 1st war of armageddon... if anyone can make a tactic out of that.

Maybe not so much for khorne, but if tzeentch daemonkin become a thing this could be really really nasty, but with a grimoire instead. And you know GW won't care about that, assuming they'll even consider it. Suddenly you have a nigh unkillable jump unit that is ap3 and shred and will blind stuff if you happen to have an icon near. Then again, with all the D flying around these days, unkillable becomes a relative term.

Mark of Tzeench limits invul at 3++. Can't get better. However, even 3+/4++ with rerolling 1-s is allrady quite fine. Another thing is how much they'd cost...

That depends on who you ask. From what I can tell, there seems to be a 50/50 split on whether or not to allow a 2++. I am in the 2++ camp. But even without that, it would still be a 3+/3++, which is still pretty nice.if your in the 3++ camp you wouldn't even need the grimoire.

The better thing is being able to mix in heralds, so you can get cursed earth easy, also being able to join chaos lords to screamers.... I want to be able to do that!