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So here are three exculsive states for the autarch:

(1) in reserve
(2) on the battlefield
(3) dead

I think you get the reserve roll no matter what state he is in. Although I've heard it mentioned that you only get the roll if the autarch in state (1) or (2)

What's the truth?

I want to say all 3. But can't exactly.

While he is in state 1 and 2 your army certainly contains an autarch. State 3 depends on whether you consider only live models as part of your army.

(4) Not paid for, just sitting beside the table.

How is 3 and 4 different?

A model stops contributing to the game once it has died / been removed as a casualty / not coming back no-way-no-how. However you want to slant it, once the Autarch is removed from the game, he stops contributing his abilities.

The Autarch is still part of your army while in reserve. He is no longer part of your army, once dead.

Nothing in the rulebook says models removed as casualties are no longer part of the army. It just says they are removed from the table and placed to the side (p13).

Page 116-117 goes over what an "army" is . It is simply the options you've selected to fill up your detachments (or just whatever you've selected for an unbound army). Having a model removed from the battlefield does not erase it from your list, otherwise it would make your army immediately illegal, potentially losing you rules like objective secured on your troops.

The only requirement for manipulating reserve rolls is that your army contains an Autarch. So even if you have a dead Autarch, or an Autarch in reserve, you can manipulate reserve rolls. Because he is still in your army, as defined on page 116-117.

Tbf it would make sense fluff wise as well - the Autarch has already made the plans and sent the reserves on their way/sent forces to harry opponents reserves. These forces he has sent to do so wouldn't cease to exist when the Autarch does. Neither would the forces he's already planned and sent for suddenly become delayed because he died.
Although as we all know - fluff has nothing to do with rules so that all means nothing.

So it boils down to whether or not you believe a dead model can impact the game as a general premise.

If you believe, as a general premise, that a dead model can no longer impact the game, you can't benefit from his abilities if he's dead. If you believe that a dead model can still impact the game, you can benefit from his rules.

Disagreement between the general premise will result in disagreement in the interpretation of the rule. I've been down this road before. It eventually cruxes on that premise.

 greatbigtree wrote:
So it boils down to whether or not you believe a dead model can impact the game as a general premise.

If you believe, as a general premise, that a dead model can no longer impact the game, you can't benefit from his abilities if he's dead. If you believe that a dead model can still impact the game, you can benefit from his rules.

Disagreement between the general premise will result in disagreement in the interpretation of the rule. I've been down this road before. It eventually cruxes on that premise.

Firstly the premise that dead models cannot impact the game is patently false. Dead vehicles become wrecks and get in the way all the time, and exploded vehicles kill stuff. Secondly its not just a matter of whether dead stuff can impact the game it is a matter of what counts as part of your army. The question is does something still count as part of your army once it dies? Unless you can find something in the rule book that says a model stops being part of your army when it dies, than the autarch is still part of the army.

If the model stops being a part of the army when it dies, then it no longer takes up a slot on the force org slot, and your detachment potentially becomes illegal.

If you have a CAD with an Autarch and 2 Guardian squads, and the Autarch dies, do the Guardians lose objective secured?

Aren't casualties "removed from game"? How can something remain a part of the army if its been removed from the game?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Aren't casualties "removed from game"? How can something remain a part of the army if its been removed from the game?

Nope.

"Models that are removed as casualties are removed from the table and placed to one side."

No mention of being removed from the game. Presumably, they are still part of your army. We're never told otherwise. If the criteria is that an Autarch is part of your army, you've fulfilled that requirement even if he's dead. If you need a fluff reason, just assume he's a fantastic leader and has trained his troops well enough that they still outperform other, similar units even when he's dead. They do things like showing up to the fight in a timely fashion better than the average Eldar trooper.

You have it backwards. This is probably what you're thinking of...

"Models that are 'removed from play' by special rules or attacks are also considered to have been removed as casualties, as far as the game rules are concerned."

so like 4 hours and 9 responses later we're still not sure :( dang I thought this would be one of those one response answer threads. Oh well. Is there anyone out there that actually DOES play using autarchs? How do you play it?

I'd play it as you lose the roll when he dies, mainly because I can't be bothered to stand there arguing. Or if my opponent tried it, I'd leave them to it. Purely off the way the rules are worded, you would be able to alter your reserves roll, if he was alive/dead/in reserves/whatever, as long as he was included in your army

No one tries to argue that Salamander characters lose their master crafted weapons if Vulkan dies. Or that Space Markne bikers cease being troops if the biker Captain dies.

There are characters that impact your army, permanently, just by purchasing them. Their presence, or even survival, is immaterial. Autarchs are just another in that category.

Does it have some bearing that the ability is not listed as a warlord trait?

edit: id est forward planning makes sense.

 coblen wrote:

Firstly the premise that dead models cannot impact the game is patently false. Dead vehicles become wrecks and get in the way all the time, and exploded vehicles kill stuff. Secondly its not just a matter of whether dead stuff can impact the game it is a matter of what counts as part of your army. The question is does something still count as part of your army once it dies? Unless you can find something in the rule book that says a model stops being part of your army when it dies, than the autarch is still part of the army.

I should have more accurately said, a dead model has no further impact upon the game unless special rules allow / force it to. In the case of vehicles, they're to be treated as terrain instead. So the newly generated piece of terrain continues to impact the game, agreed. The possible explosion occurs prior to removal of the model [how else would you measure range? ] so again, the basic premise stands. Unless a special rule allows my "terrain piece" to regain HP, I can no longer control it's movement, Psychic use, shooting, or potentially assault. Unless I have a rule that lets my model stand back up, like Yarrick or Celestine, they take no further part in the battle.

No one tries to argue that Salamander characters lose their master crafted weapons if Vulkan dies. Or that Space Markne bikers cease being troops if the biker Captain dies.

There are characters that impact your army, permanently, just by purchasing them. Their presence, or even survival, is immaterial. Autarchs are just another in that category.

There is no argument, because rules are granted to models that continue to "live" in the game. Taking Vulcan grants rules to models with Meltas and Flamers. Those models now have rules, that stick with them till they die.

Taking a Biker Master allows you to take Bikes as Troops. Those "living" bikes possess rules that stick with them till they die. The rules do not belong to the Characters, the rules belong to the models that they effect. This is further specified on page 119 of the 40k Rulebook.

The Autarch is not the same thing. The Autarch grants benefits to a die roll. When you roll the die, you check to see if you have any rules that impact it. If the Autarch is no longer alive, you have nothing to grant you special rules. There isn't another model with rules granted to it to allow that benefit. He's in the same category as option 4... sitting beside the table, never part of my list. The Autarch is included on your Force Roster, agreed. So are many other models that have rules.

Pg 13 of the 40k RB describes that casualties are removed from the table and placed to the side. No further restrictions are placed upon them. It is a PREMISE that these models are not allowed to move, use Psychic powers [we know they don't generate dice, but why can't they cast powers from the sidelines?] shoot or assault. Nor can they re-enter play, or do anything else. We aren't told that. We are assumed to understand that a casualty has no further impact on the game unless special rules change this.

Challenges to produce rules that state that an Autarch is part of your army until the rules tell you otherwise ignores that premise. No such rules exist, any more than rules exist to prevent me from firing a dead Basilisk's Earthshaker Cannon from 20 feet away. But I can't. If I haven't used my Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment before he dies, I can't rain death from above onto something after he's removed. I'm not told this anywhere, it's just a reasonable premise that I can't. Because he's dead.


As I said earlier, my interpretation of the General Premise that a model can't impact a game after becoming a casualty unless rules explicitly permit it, leads me to believe the Autarch's reserve manipulation dies with him. People need not agree with that premise, but disagreeing might lead to other interesting results, with otherwise dead models. Like ghost-ordnance.

I don't have my codex on me right now, so this may be wrong, but isn't it worded as 'an army that includes an autarch...', in which case the status of the Autarch is not relevant for the rule to work, by paying the points for one, your army contains an autarch, so the rule would always reply would it not?

 statu wrote:
I don't have my codex on me right now, so this may be wrong, but isn't it worded as 'an army that includes an autarch...', in which case the status of the Autarch is not relevant for the rule to work, by paying the points for one, your army contains an autarch, so the rule would always reply would it not?

Yes, it would always apply, no matter what state you're in, because an autarch is always a part of your army, as defined by your army list, even if dead.

Lets compare it to a similar rules from other Codices.

- The Swarmlord's "Alien Cunning" - "While the Swarmlord is alive, you must add 1 to your reserve rolls."
Checks to see if the Swarmlord is still alive

- Farsight Enclaves Warlord Trait Countercrisis: "XV8 Crisis Teams have a +1 modifier to their Reserve Rolls"
Doesn't check to see if the Warlord is still alive

So you can see there is a clear wording difference between rules that check to see if the bearer has been removed as a casualty, and those that don't. Why include that line at all if the special rule ceases to function after a model is removed as a casualty by default? The only answer is that unless the rule specifically states that it no longer has an effect once a model is removed, it will continue to function. The Autarch's "Path of Command" special rule only checks to see that an Autarch is part of the army. He is still a part of the army after he has been removed as a casualty, so the rule continues to function.

 greatbigtree wrote:
There is no argument, because rules are granted to models that continue to "live" in the game. Taking Vulcan grants rules to models with Meltas and Flamers. Those models now have rules, that stick with them till they die.

Taking an Autarch grants a rule to your reserve units. Your reserves now have a rule, that sticks with them till they die. Same thing.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Taking a Biker Master allows you to take Bikes as Troops. Those "living" bikes possess rules that stick with them till they die. The rules do not belong to the Characters, the rules belong to the models that they effect. This is further specified on page 119 of the 40k Rulebook.

Taking an Autarch allowes you to +1 or -1 to your reserve rolls. This rule belongs to the units it effects. Who does it effect? The reserved units.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The Autarch is not the same thing. The Autarch grants benefits to a die roll. When you roll the die, you check to see if you have any rules that impact it. If the Autarch is no longer alive, you have nothing to grant you special rules. There isn't another model with rules granted to it to allow that benefit. He's in the same category as option 4... sitting beside the table, never part of my list. The Autarch is included on your Force Roster, agreed. So are many other models that have rules.

The Autarch is the same. What does Vulcan do? Grants benefits to die rolls. When you roll the die to hit, you check to see if you have any rules that impact it. Why are you refering back to the Autarch for his special rule, when it is the reserves that are actually gaining the effect? Remember pg 119? You still have failed to provide a rules quote that says dead units are NOT part of your army, so stop with the "option 4" stuff.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Pg 13 of the 40k RB describes that casualties are removed from the table and placed to the side. No further restrictions are placed upon them. It is a PREMISE that these models are not allowed to move, use Psychic powers [we know they don't generate dice, but why can't they cast powers from the sidelines?] shoot or assault. Nor can they re-enter play, or do anything else. We aren't told that. We are assumed to understand that a casualty has no further impact on the game unless special rules change this.

It is not just a premise, we know they cant perform actions because the rules for those actions actually require you to be on the table. We are told that. We are not left/told to assume anything.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Challenges to produce rules that state that an Autarch is part of your army until the rules tell you otherwise ignores that premise. No such rules exist, any more than rules exist to prevent me from firing a dead Basilisk's Earthshaker Cannon from 20 feet away. But I can't. If I haven't used my Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment before he dies, I can't rain death from above onto something after he's removed. I'm not told this anywhere, it's just a reasonable premise that I can't. Because he's dead.

Again, the "premise" you speak of is actually written into the rules in regards to the game actions you discussed.

 greatbigtree wrote:
As I said earlier, my interpretation of the General Premise that a model can't impact a game after becoming a casualty unless rules explicitly permit it, leads me to believe the Autarch's reserve manipulation dies with him. People need not agree with that premise, but disagreeing might lead to other interesting results, with otherwise dead models. Like ghost-ordnance.

Again...read the rules they cover what your premise intends to "fix."