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2015/05/18 05:57:25
Subject: 1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
I wanted to test out my theories, only my 2 main Eldar opponents were on 40K sabbaticals. It took a little while, but I finally got in a game with Tyranids vs Eldar. Only I was the one playing Eldar. My opponent? None other than the man, the myth, the StarCraft legend himself, Mr. Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson and was Barbed Hierodule tournament Tyranids. Geoff is a really good Tyranid player, winning Best Tyranids at the BAO 2014 (I took Best Tyranids at the BAO 2013 and was runner-up to Geoff in 2014). Geoff also took the award for Best Tyranid player in the ITC 2014, and he is one of a very, very small group of people whom I actually have a losing record against. By the ways, Geoff hasn't read my tactica yet (or at least I don't think he has).
He brought his 1850 tournament list:
iNcontrol's Tyranids:
Leviathan:
Flyrant - Egrubs
Flyrant - Egrubs
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
CAD:
Flyrant - Egrubs, Fighter Ace
Swarmlord
Malanthrope
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
Barbed Hierodule
Jy2's Eldar:
While my opponent brought his proven, tournament Tyranid list, I only brought a generalist Eldar list. It isn't a fully optimized list, but it is still pretty good. I was running this list mainly to get a feel of how the Eldar army works, and I mainly used models that I currently own (with only 1 proxy, the D-scythe Wraithguards).
3. The nerf to D...Destroyer shots can only do 2W at most. The D-scythes only wound on a 3+ and they do D2 wounds (instead of D3).
4. Other than a lucky '6' on the D-charts, Eldar will have problems against 2+ Shrouded cover.
5. The Barbed Hierodule with 2+ cover and 12 S10 shots has a better chance to take out my Wraithknight than vice versa. I really don't have an answer for his GMC.
6. Geoff actually got some very good Psychic powers with 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Psychic Scream, 1 Warp Blast and 1 Onslaught. I have weak psychic defense with no psykers in my army.
7. We are playing the Scouring. Eldar has got 3 Fast Attacks. Tyranids have none.
8. Although Tyranids are going 1st, they do have Master of Ambush and so will be getting the alpha-strike.
9. We played with plenty of ruins in this game. Basically, his flyrants will never have to jink as they should almost always be in terrain.
10. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 VP sub-missions. These will be very hard for my army to take because they consist of FMC's, a Gargantuan and units with 2+ cover.
Eldar:
Spoiler:
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. I am more familiar with Tyranids than Geoff is with the new Eldar.
2. Eldar is going 2nd, meaning they will have the last say on objectives.
3. Mobility. No one can take objectives quite like the Eldar. Their bikes can zoom from 48" away onto an objective.
4. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 Objectives sub-missions. With Eldar going 2nd and ObSec bikers, I should be able to grab these every turn, that is, if I don't mind sacrificing my scoring units next turn.
5. Hammer & Anvil deployment. One of the worst deployment types for Tyranids and one of the best for Eldar.
6. One of the best ways to deal with Eldar is by running MSU. Well, Geoff is doing quite the opposite of that, with 1 big "deathstar" unit (his Barbie) and a bunch of flyers. He's only got 2 units of rippers to grab those objectives. Once I take them out, Geoff's ability to grab the objectives will become really hard.
7. D-weapons. Even though the D has been nerfed, it is still really dangerous, especially from my D-scythe Wraithguards. You know what they say....a D a day keeps the big bugs away. Of course, this is assuming my WG wave serpent doesn't get popped out in the middle of nowhere.
8. Target priority. Let's see if Geoff gets his Target Priority correct. Before the game, I was going on about how good the Warp Spiders and the D-scythe WG's were. I also stressed how my Crimson Hunter Exarch was my best weapon against his flyrants and how I have 3 Fast Attack units in my list. Let's see if he goes after those units or my ObSec jetbike troops. If he leaves my jetbikes alone, then I have a chance. If he goes after them early, then he will neutralize my mobility advantage and I will be in trouble.
9. His flyrants will have to eventually land. And when they do, I will take them out....assuming I still have any offense left.
10. Sorry, I barely made it to 9. I don't have a 10.
So what do you think of the matchup? Who will win? Who is favored? We played ITC mission #4, with Scouring as the Primary and Modified Maelstrom as the Secondary.
Also, we were playing with the ITC nerf to D. On the Destroyer Table, 2-5 = D2 Wounds/Hull Points and 6 = 2 Wounds/HP's with no saves of any kind. Also, the Destroyer shots do not count as S10 for the purposes of Instant Death.
This will be a text-only battle report, as I didn't bring my camera to take any pictures.
Primary: The Scouring (worth 4-pts)
Secondary: Modified Maelstrom (roll for 2 each turn, worth 4-pts):
1. Hold Objective #1.
2. Hold Objective #2.
3. Hold Objective #3.
4. Kill an enemy unit.
5. Kill an enemy unit.
6. Kill an enemy unit.
Tertiaries: Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, Big Game Hunter (Kill the most expensive enemy unit)
My Big Game Hunter (BGH) unit is the Wraithknight. Geoff's is his Barbed Hierodule.
Deployment: Hammer & Anvil
First Turn: Tyranids (I win the roll and opted to go 2nd)
No Night-fight.
We both get Master of Ambush for our Warlord traits.
Geoff gets some really good psychic powers - 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Onslaught, 1 Psychic Scream and 1 Warp Blast.
Terrain consists of 1 large ruins in the middle, surrounded by 6 terrain pieces - 2 smaller ruins, 2 BLOS hills and 2 BLOS ruins. Overall, there was plenty of ruins for all the MC's in the game.
I win the roll to go first but opt to go second instead.
Geoff deploys everything but the mucolids. He deploys Swarmy and the Malanthrope as far forwards as possible. He deploys the 2 rippers in the back in ruins on both of the objectives. He then infiltrates his 3 flyrants and the Barbed Hierodule about 18" from my units.
I deploy only 2 units. Talk about gutsy. I deploy my WK on an objective and in ruins (18" away from where he would later infiltrate his flyrant and Barbed Hierodule). I then deploy my D-artillery (the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery) behind the BLOS hill in my deployment zone.
I then reserve the rest of my army. WG's, Dark Reapers and 2 units of jetbikes with my Warlord Autarch will be outflanking (due to Master of Ambush). Scorpions and Hawks will deepstrike and 1 unit of jetbikes will be coming in on my board edge (along with my flyer). That's right, I'm going with a null-deployment strategy against Geoff's Tyranids thanks to the +/-1 I get on Reserves with my Autarch. I just hope that I don't get tabled before then. Gulp!
Maelstrom - His 2 Maelstrom objectives are the ones that his 2 rippers are on. My 2 Maelstrom objectives are the ones that my 2 units are on.
Movement - Malanthrope and Swarmlord advances into the central ruins. Barbie moves back slightly 1) to get out of my WK's charge range and 2) to get within the Malanthrope's bubble. 2 flyrants move towards my artillery. 1 flyrant move towards my WK but stays in ruins.
Psychic - Tyranids get off all of their powers except Paroxysm on my WK (which I manage to deny). Flyrant Psychic Screams at my artillery. I fail the Psychic Scream test and lose 1 guy and the artillery piece. The last guy then fails morale again and runs off the table. You will see this trend in the game.
Shooting - 2 flyrants have no target. The other flyrant shoots at my WK and does no wounds. Barbie then shoots at my WK and causes 2 unsaved wounds.
Eldar 1:
Spoiler:
My turn is very short. I go straight to the shooting phase since my WK is already on a Maelstrom objective. Due to 2+ shrouded cover, my shooting does no damage.
Maelstrom - Geoff scores 2 Maelstrom points for claiming 2 of his objectives with his rippers. I get 1 for having my WK on an objective.
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 1, Tyranids: 2
Tyranids 2:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - We both get 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.
Movement - 2 mucolids come in (deepstriking near the 2-pt objective). All 3 flyrants fly off the table. He moves the Malanthrope, Swarmy and Barbie towards the center of the table (to get away from the threat range of my outflanking D-Scythe Wraithguards).
Shooting - Barbed Hierodule does 6W to my Wraithknight. I then fail 4 out of 6 4+ cover saves. However, I then make 3 out of 4 5+ FNP saves.
Tyranids fail to kill a unit, but they do have their rippers on their Maelstrom objective.
Eldar 2:
Spoiler:
Movement - I use my Autarch to give +1 to my Reserves. Everything comes in except for my Autarch and his unit of bikers and the Crimson Hunter Exarch. I deepstrike the hawks into my opponent's deployment zone to go after the rippers on an objective. Scorpions come in on the opposite flank of the hawks (but still within range of the rippers and objective in my opponent's Deployment zone). Spiders come in mid-board and behind a BLOS hill to go after either Barbie or the malanthrope. Scatterbikes come in around my deployment zone (I get 1 Skyfire Nexus on my 1-pt objective). I make sure that the bikes are out of flyrant threat range when they come back in next turn. Finally, wave serpents (with WG's and Dark Reapers) come in mid-board as well. Geoff does a good job of keeping his TMC's/GMC out of my D-scythe threat range and so I leave my WG's (and Dark Reapers) in their transports this turn.
Shooting - Between my Swooping Hawks, 1 serpent shield and the scatterbikes, I manage to erase both units of rippers, thus denying my opponent of his Maelstrom objective. The rest of my shooting - Warp Spiders, WK and scatterbikes - fail to do any damage to his TMC's with 2+ cover, though I do manage to take out 1 mucolid as well. Geoff gets a little revenge on me as he fails 4 2+ saves on his malanthrope but then makes 4 5+ FNP saves on him instead. WG wave serpent then moves flat-out towards Barbie and his friends.
Assault - While making my assault moves for my bikers, I lose 1 bike to dangerous terrain. They then fail the Morale and fall back.
Maelstrom - My opponent fails to achieve either of his Maelstrom objectives this turn. He fails to kill a unit and then I erase his unit on his Maelstrom objective. I, on the other hand, get both of mine. However, since Geoff did 3W to my Gargantuan Lord of War, he gets +1VP, which in the ITC missions counts towards the Secondary Maelstrom objectives.
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 3, Tyranids: 3
Tyranids 3:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - Geoff gets Kill-1-unit and 1 objective Maelstrom objectives. I get 2 objectives.
Movement - Flyrants come back in. They go after my hawks and spiders. Last mucolid comes in as well. Barbie moves away from my WG's in wave serpent and towards my Warp Spiders. Geoff has just made it impossible for my Warp Spiders to get away. If they jump out of range of the flyrants, they will be in LOS and potential charge range of Barbie. Lastly, Swarmy will sacrifice himself by moving in the way of my WG's (if order to try to save Barbie).
Psychic - I cannot stop any of his psychic powers. Swarmy paroxyses my WK. Flyrant Psychic Shrieks my warp spiders and I lose 1 (again, another failed LD). Catalyst goes off on almost his entire army.
Shooting - Flyrant fires at the Swooping Hawks. Despite going-to-ground in ruins for the 3+, I lose the entire squad of 6 due to crappy saves. 2 flyrants shoot at my Warp Spiders. Statistically, I should lose 6 spiders (3 from each flyrant). Again, I roll poorly on their saves and lose the entire unit. Lastly, Barbie shoots at my WK. This time he does only 5W and between 4+ cover and 5+ FNP, I only lose 1W. Anyways, Geoff gets +2VP to the Primary for killing 2 of my Fast Attack units.
Assault - Geoff makes a mistake here and forgets to assault my WG wave serpent with the Swarmlord. Or maybe he didn't want to assault it because that would then pull him out of Malanthrope range and I still have my Crimson Hunter and WK shooting next turn. Hmmm.... Finally, mucolid assault and kill 2 of my Striking Scorpions.
Eldar 3:
Spoiler:
Movement - Warlord's unit and Crimson Hunter both come in. This turn I go after his Warlord flyrant. Dark Reapers disembark. Crimson Hunter and bikes (with 1 unit of bikes on the Skyfire objective) aim for his flyrant. My fleeing bikers regroup. I make sure to cover both of my Maelstrom objectives as well. Lastly, WG's disembark after their serpent advances 6". I am actually in range of Barbie, however, I opt to go after Swarmy instead. Why? Because Swarmy is in range of the Malanthrope, and I can actually BBQ them both.
Shooting - I make a mistake here. I fire the Crimson Hunter into his Warlord, and then I find out he is also within 6" of the Malanthrope! Needless to say, with 2+ cover (in ruins), his Warlord doesn't lose a single wound. I then fire with my WG's. They barbeque Swarmy. However, when I roll to wound against his Malanthrope, I roll a 1, 2, 1, 2, 3 for a total of only 1W. I need to redirect my firepower against his Malanthrope and Geoff rolls well for his saves. None of my shots get past his 2+ cover, though I do manage to do another 1W to it from the WG's Wave Serpent cover-ignoring serpent shields. In short, my Shooting phase was just horrible.
Assault - Bikers do their jump moves (except for the unit that just regrouped).
Maelstrom - Despite Geoff's really good turn and my really bad one, I outscore Geoff again in the Maelstrom objectives. I get both of mine (with several different units) and Geoff only manages to get 1 of his (kill-a-unit).
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 5, Tyranids: 4
Tyranids 4:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - We both get 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.
Movement - Geoff keeps his flyrants on the table in preparation for Turn 5. 1 flyrant goes after the Crimson Hunter. Another goes after my Dark Reapers. The last one goes after the Wraithguards. All will be in position to jump onto objectives next turn. Barbie continues to retreat away from my WG's.
Psychic - Scream claims another kill - 1 Dark Reaper model (yet another failed LD test). I believe he only gets 1 Catalyst off this turn.
Shooting - Flyrant finishes off my reapers. 2nd flyrant fails to down my Crimson Hunter, managing to take off 2HP's and forcing me to jink. 3rd flyrant manages to shoot down 3 WG's (average would have been 2 WG's dead only). Barbie shoots at my WK with 2W remaining in an attempt to take him out (for the extra +1VP to the Maelstrom Secondary). Once again, I roll well for my WK and he only takes 1W of damage (1W remaining). Only my WK has been rolling well. The rest of my army hasn't.
Eldar 4:
Spoiler:
Movement - I fly my flyer off the table. I then position my bikes to shoot at either a flyrant or the Malanthrope. WK moves towards the Skyfire Nexus. This may be risky because he will be out in the open, but I take the gamble anyways. Scorpions are still alive but continue to hide in the ruins by Objective #3 in my opponent's deployment zone. I move the DR's Wave Serpent into my opponent's deployment zone as well (I've not got 3 units there - scorpions, Wave Serpent and my Warlord's unit). Lastly, my 2 remaining WG's go after the Malanthrope.
Shooting - It takes my entire army just to kill the Malanthrope with 2W left! First of all, the WG's fire but only 1 of the D-scythes do any damage (and it only does 1W). I then fire all 3 bikers at the Malanthrope. That's 32 S6 shots and 2 S5 shots (from my Autarch) and he makes EVERY SINGLE 2+ SAVES! So I am forced to fire the WK at him. At first I wanted to run my WK to the Skyfire objective (and cover as well), but now, he's going to be out in the open. Instead, he shoots....and my opponent finally fails a 2+ cover save! The Malanthrope finally goes down!
Maelstrom - Once again, I get both of mine, killing 1 enemy unit (his Malanthrope) and with one of my units on an objective. And once again, Geoff only gets 1 of his. He kills one of my units (Dark Reapers) but has no one within reach of his objective (and he didn't want to land his flyrants just yet).
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 7, Tyranids: 5
Tyranids 5:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - Geoff gets 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for his Maelstrom objectives. I need to kill 2 units.
Geoff re-evaluates his chances of possibly winning at the end of this turn. I've got 3 units (actually 4 as I could split off my Warlord from his unit) in his deployment zone for Linebreaker and to cover his 2 objectives. I've got 1 wave serpent and the WG's to cover the 2 mid-field objectives (both worth 2-pts). I've got my WK in my deployment zone to cover my objective. HOWEVER, I've also got 2 units of bikers hiding in my deployment zone waiting to zip onto objectives on my next turn. So he decides that he can't take the Primary from me.
With the Secondary, I will have a hard time taking out any of his units - 3 flyrants and Barbie, almost all at full strength or just 1W on them. He could potentially win Maelstrom if he can achieve both of his Maelstrom objectives and if he kills my WK, which would give him a bonus +1VP.
So if I take Primary and he takes Secondary, the difference will be in the Tertiaries. He needs for 2 things to happen - he needs to deny me Linebreaker and he needs to kill my Warlord. It's a long shot, but it's his only chance of winning this turn. However, what he really needs is for the game to go on another turn as the chances for him to pull it all off is very slim indeed.
Movement - Warlord flyrant lands onto his Objective #3 (behind and in his BLOS ruins terrain). I have 3 scorpions there contesting but he should be able to shoot them off. Another flyrant goes after my Warlord and his unit (he stays in the air). Barbie goes after my contesting Wave Serpent. His last flyrant swoops into the central ruins. It is no use for him to go after my WG's because I've got both my WG's and their Wave Serpent on Objective #2 in the central ruins, so it will probably go after the WK as insurance.
Psychic - Scream doesn't go off and only 1 Catalyst goes off.
Shooting - Ok, for Geoff to pull this off, almost everything has to go perfectly for him. First of all, his Warlord shoots at my scorpions. I am clutch with their saves as I pass 8 out of 10 saves and only lose 2 (Exarch survives). HOWEVER, my Exarch then fails his Morale and falls back off of the 3-pt objective. Doh!
Next, his other flyrant shoots at my Warlord's unit. He kills only 1 biker and put 1W on my Warlord (slightly below-average, average would have been 3 Wounds).
So now he's got a decision to make. Should Barbie fire at my WK and Wave Serpent or should he fire at my Warlord's unit and Wave Serpent? Geoff decides to go after my Warlord's unit and so split-fires between the unit and the Wave Serpent. He manages to glance my serpent once and also kills off both windrider bikers. However, my Warlord survives! I then roll for Morale and roll , ! Warlord falls back off of the 1-pt objective.
Lastly, he goes for a hail mary and fires his last flyrant at my WK....to no effect. My WK survives.
Assault - Finally, we have assault. Barbie charges and wrecks the Wave Serpent.
Currently, Geoff has both of his Maelstrom objectives (Warlord on Objective #3 and he kills 2 of my units). If I don't achieve either of my Maelstrom objectives, then we will tie the Secondary. It I get even 1, then I will take the Secondary (and assuming the game ends).
Eldar 5:
Spoiler:
Movement - Crimson Hunter comes in and goes after the mid-field flyrant. I move my bikers towards the objectives. WK jumps onto the Skyfire 1-pt objective. Autarch regroups and nabs me Linebreaker. Scorpion Exarch is a lost cause and continues to run away.
Shooting - Crimson Hunter does 2W to his flyrant. My WK then goes clutch when he hits the wounded flyrant twice and rolls , on the Destroyer table to take it out. My bikes don't even have to shoot. Instead, they just turbo onto the 2-pt and 3-pt Scouring objectives.
Maelstrom - Geoff gets both of his objectives this turn (Warlord flyrant on Objective #3 and kills several of my units). I actually manage to get one of my kill objectives
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 8, Tyranids: 7
In the Primary, I have the 1-pt (WK), both 2-pts (jetbikes, WG and Wave Serpent) and the 3-pt objective (jetbikes) for a total of 8-pts for the Scouring. Geoff only gets 1 3-pt objective (his Warlord flyrant) and 2 Fast Attack pts (Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks) for a total of 5-pts. I would take the Primary. I also would take the Secondary as well. Lastly, I would get Linebreaker (my Warlord).
That is....if the game ends. If not, then I just may be in trouble as all of my units are exposed.
I roll to see if the game continues and.....
Tyranids 6:
Spoiler:
....the roll is a . Game over!
Eldar takes Primary, Secondary and Linebreaker for a 9-0 win.
So how did Eldar win? Despite Geoff being a very experienced Tyranid player, getting alpha-struck by his bugs (Master of Ambush and Tyranids going 1st), my bad rolling, my horrible Leadership tests, my lack of anti-air against FMC's and having trouble against Tyranids in 2+ cover, how was I able to win?
Target Priority. Geoff's target priority actually wasn't bad. However, he did not go after the units that are the most dangerous in my army - my ObSec Windrider scatterbikes. Sure, the units he went after were offensive threats. Some of them even gave up bonus points. However, the scatterbikes are the only true double-threat in the army. They are both an offensive threat as well as a threat to objectives anywhere on the table. I rank them in my tactica as the highest priority threats and yet, they were the very unit that my opponent chose to ignore basically the entire game.
Army Build. This is no fault of my opponent as he brought his standard Take-All-Comer's list, but his army build really suffers against mine. It just isn't a very good Maelstrom army. In my tactica, running MSU (multiple-small-units) will give you the best chances of going up against the new Eldar. Geoff's army was the complete opposite. The Barbed Hierodule is more like a deathstar unit in that it is a huge points-investment into 1 single unit. Other than him and some very expensive MC's, my opponent really didn't have many units to grab the Maelstrom objectives. Flyrants are not that great in Maelstrom scenarios because you really don't want to land them if you can help it. If you want to run multiple flyrants, you need to complement them with a better ground force that can hold multiple objectives in Maelstrom scenarios. Geoff's list just isn't as suitable for Maelstrom scenarios as a more MSU Tyranid list is. But despite that, Geoff was still able to keep it close, which is a testament to his skill and experience.
Wraithguards. Wraithguards were actually huge this game and helped to push my opponent's army back. With them, I was able to deny my opponent the 2 2-pt objectives in the middle as I forced him to sacrifice his Swarmlord and to keep his Barbed Hierodule back. Without them, Geoff probably would have advanced Barbie into my deployment zone for Linebreaker and my 3-pt objective.
Eldar truly is a very forgiving army. This may be the real secret as to why the new Eldar are so good. In this game, everything went against me. I gave my opponent the alpha-strike. I wasn't rolling well for the most part. My offense was basically stagnant and I struggled to kill any of his units. I had no answer to 2+ cover other than my Wraithguards and I couldn't stop him from having his way with me in the Psychic phase. My Leadership tests were just atrocious. I gave up 3 bonus VP's (2 Fast Attack VP's, 1VP for my WK). Sure, I played a very smart game and with very, very few mistakes, but it is the power of the codex itself (how good and super-efficient the units are) that makes the new space elves still such a threat in spite of all of these adverse conditions. You get a general who knows what he is doing and the new Eldar just becomes a powerhouse, despite him running a non-optimized Eldar army and with everything going against him. I can totally see why Reece was willing to wager $250 of his money to anyone who can beat his Eldar. They really are that good and despite a lot of mistakes Reece has made in his games with them, they are really a forgiving army as well.
Next time, I'm going to have to play as Tyranids against another Eldar player. Thanks for reading!
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/05/19 14:46:04
While I reckon Tyranids can beat the new Eldar, I'm not sure iNcontrol has enough models to win this one. Still, it'll be interesting to see what happens. Also, it would be nice if some great Eldar weakness were to be exposed here.
2015/05/18 14:47:50
Subject: 1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
Yeah, IMO, MSU Tyranids is a better build against Eldar insofar as objectives are concerned. However, there is the element of VP's in the Maelstrom scenario, with 3 of the 6 Maelstrom objectives being kill-a-unit. That would be hard for me as I have to kill flyers, a GMC and generally Tyranid units with 2+ cover. If we both roll and get predominantly VP's for our Maelstrom objectives, Tyranids will have the advantage. If we both roll and get predominantly objectives for our Maelstrom objectives, then Eldar will have the advantage.
How does Swarmy fit in with the nids list? As a force multiplier he can't keep up with the Flyrants and barbie so well to be effective and he doesn't bring as much heat as a dima in cc or mobility / impact of 2 Mawlocs
If he is just babysitting barbie with MH / PE then that is interesting... A very expensive buffer but would probably survive with the barbie taking the attention?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/18 17:08:16
2015/05/18 17:58:19
Subject: Re:1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
Jim let me start by saying it is fantastic to see you back writing batreps. I missed your batreps. So thanks.
IMO that was actually a really close game. A few rolls here and there and a couple of changes to positioning apparently could have changed reversed the outcome in Geoff's favor. I would love to read a future rematch if you two get around to it as I think a lot of the result was just you two feeling out the new CWE.
It is hard to really comment on what happened in the batrep without pictures though, so please excuse my vagueness.
Again thanks for sharing the great batrep. Hopefully you get a chance to smack some eldar around yourself in the near future.
2015/05/18 18:57:39
Subject: Re:1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
How does Swarmy fit in with the nids list? As a force multiplier he can't keep up with the Flyrants and barbie so well to be effective and he doesn't bring as much heat as a dima in cc or mobility / impact of 2 Mawlocs
If he is just babysitting barbie with MH / PE then that is interesting... A very expensive buffer but would probably survive with the barbie taking the attention?
Swarmy is a force-multiplier, a board control unit and a bodyguard for Barbie against other assault armies that would normally chew him up. He also adds to the Warp pool as well as has more psychic powers. With that said, he is expensive and he does give up quite a bit against certain armies, but a lot of the times, he does survive in the end to grab an objective or even Linebreaker.
Personally, I'd prefer a 4th flyrant over Swarmy, but everyone has different styles/preferences.
ansacs wrote: Jim let me start by saying it is fantastic to see you back writing batreps. I missed your batreps. So thanks.
IMO that was actually a really close game. A few rolls here and there and a couple of changes to positioning apparently could have changed reversed the outcome in Geoff's favor. I would love to read a future rematch if you two get around to it as I think a lot of the result was just you two feeling out the new CWE.
It is hard to really comment on what happened in the batrep without pictures though, so please excuse my vagueness.
Again thanks for sharing the great batrep. Hopefully you get a chance to smack some eldar around yourself in the near future.
Thanks! Me playing against Geoff was just by chance. It wasn't planned at all, hence why I didn't bring my camera. But because I recently wrote a tactical for Tyranids against Eldar, I decided that this would be an interesting enough battle report to chronicle to test out my tactica.
I won't go too much into the specifics of the battle, as I haven't posted it here yet, but I will say this much. The dice wasn't in my favor in this game. As a matter of fact, throughout the game, I felt that I was getting my a$$ handed to me and a couple of times during the game, I was swearing like a sailor (and was told by the storekeeper to keep it down....it's a family store, lol). But Eldar is a wonderfully forgiving army and I was able to keep it close (until the end).
We have 2 Eldar players on our team (Team Zero Comp) but they are currently on sabbaticals (one is going to play another army this season and the other is just too busy with work). I hope to get a game in with them sometime in the future, but next time, I will be running my Tyranids.
Forgive my Eldary ways, but I've had an Eldar army ever since 6th. I just never played them competitively. I still don't plan to, but the 2 Eldar players in my area are currently "out". So to see how the new Eldar are, I could either try to find another Eldar opponent or I could just play them myself. In any case, sometimes, in order to know thine enemy, you just have to put yourself in thine enemy's shoes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/18 19:27:29
jy2 wrote:Swarmy is a force-multiplier, a board control unit and a bodyguard for Barbie against other assault armies that would normally chew him up. He also adds to the Warp pool as well as has more psychic powers. With that said, he is expensive and he does give up quite a bit against certain armies, but a lot of the times, he does survive in the end to grab an objective or even Linebreaker.
Personally, I'd prefer a 4th flyrant over Swarmy, but everyone has different styles/preferences.
I actually like swarmy in Geoff's list. When all the synergy is combined the combination of malantrope, barbie, and swarmy lets Geoff control a portion of the board pretty effectively. In this game for example without swarmy you probably would have BBQ'd barbie in short order. Not that you couldn't use a variety of other choices to fulfill essentially the same functions.
jy2 wrote:Thanks! Me playing against Geoff was just by chance. It wasn't planned at all, hence why I didn't bring my camera. But because I recently wrote a tactical for Tyranids against Eldar, I decided that this would be an interesting enough battle report to chronicle to test out my tactica.
I won't go too much into the specifics of the battle, as I haven't posted it here yet, but I will say this much. The dice wasn't in my favor in this game. As a matter of fact, throughout the game, I felt that I was getting my a$$ handed to me and a couple of times during the game, I was swearing like a sailor (and was told by the storekeeper to keep it down....it's a family store, lol). But Eldar is a wonderfully forgiving army and I was able to keep it close (until the end).
From what I can tell you had bad luck on morale check but some pretty good luck on your FnP and cover saves for the wraithknight. Ironically you had about the same % chance to make a 5+ FnP as you do to fail a Ld8 check (33% vs 28%).
jy2 wrote:We have 2 Eldar players on our team (Team Zero Comp) but they are currently on sabbaticals (one is going to play another army this season and the other is just too busy with work). I hope to get a game in with them sometime in the future, but next time, I will be running my Tyranids.
To bad. Your supply of CWE to slap around is limited then. Either way it is good to have you back though.
2015/05/18 22:25:20
Subject: Re:1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
To bad. Your supply of CWE to slap around is limited then. Either way it is good to have you back though.
I'm just going to have to wait until next month - where I've got several tournaments that I am going to - before my sl-happy hands can on some Eldar foes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/18 22:55:20
jy2: When you say you rolled "double-sixes on the destroyer table" do you mean the Destroyer Table, or the Modified Destroyer Table?
If you're playing with D, kudos! If not, I would hope you would point that out in your reports.
And you're absolutely right about Eldar being 'forgiving': They are both resilient (hard to kill) and have staying power (good levels of offensive capacity despite losses taken).
2015/05/19 15:46:14
Subject: Re:1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
DCannon4Life wrote: jy2: When you say you rolled "double-sixes on the destroyer table" do you mean the Destroyer Table, or the Modified Destroyer Table?
If you're playing with D, kudos! If not, I would hope you would point that out in your reports.
And you're absolutely right about Eldar being 'forgiving': They are both resilient (hard to kill) and have staying power (good levels of offensive capacity despite losses taken).
On the modified D-table. Each 6 only does 2W of damage now in the ITC format, with no saves of any kind (even though his flyrant only had 2W left). I mentioned this twice, in my Pre-game Analysis and early in my report.
Good rundown JY, great game in your usual "play to the last dice drops" style. Is it me or are missions overly complicated now? I'm not a fan of having so many varied objectives and ways to get points in every mission. Are missions this way now for scoring purposes, balance issues, or what? Love your insight into competitive 40k.
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters
2015/05/19 21:57:17
Subject: Re:1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
How do you feel the ITC changes to Destroyer played out?
Edit: Guess I was right with one of the 2 to pick the Eldar Stomp even with ITC rulings!
Seems even with modified d his opponent ran scared or heavily target prioritized the wraithguard and knight.
Wraithguard unless you have atrocious rolling also killed anything I range. Seemed the hardest part was just getting them in range.
The knight just seemed incredibly durable to last 5 turns with heavy shooting at it and it seemed his opponent was Afraid to fight it in assault as well. Other then that wave serpents don't look that threatening anymore but are still decent transports and jet bikes were the game winners for thier ob secured, speed, durability, and heavy rate of fire.
Impressive win considering how absolutely horrible and below average most of his rolls were.
Despite a mediocre Eldar list vs a standard tested tyranid tournament list and poor rolling by the eldar player it's another crushing win for the Eldar battle test. 9-0
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/19 22:01:53
2015/05/20 02:23:26
Subject: 1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
How do you feel the ITC changes to Destroyer played out?
Edit: Guess I was right with one of the 2 to pick the Eldar Stomp even with ITC rulings!
I think it's a good change overall, though I think the '6' on the D-table should have been 3-wounds instead (still way better than the original 6+D6). However, it's going to be a double-edged sword. It's good because Eldar has so much D. However, if you're playing a knight army or bringing that Shadowsword LoW with your Imperial list, you're going to find it way underwhelming. Perhaps it would have been better to just nerf Distort on non-LoW units as opposed to the D overall. That is because I feel that the Eldar codex will be an anomaly. I doubt you're going to find this much D on any other army since and going forth.
And good call with the results.
Bonachinonin wrote: Nice game. With the eldar, I really like the aspect host. Too bad none of the units really got time to shine there.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Aspect Host as well, even though it didn't do anything this game due to my opponent rolling well (and I didn't). However, I've had games where my Warp Spiders were just All-stars. Today just wasn't their day.
BladeWalker wrote: Good rundown JY, great game in your usual "play to the last dice drops" style. Is it me or are missions overly complicated now? I'm not a fan of having so many varied objectives and ways to get points in every mission. Are missions this way now for scoring purposes, balance issues, or what? Love your insight into competitive 40k.
Missions are actually quite simple once you play them a couple of times. There is a Primary worth 4-pts. Then there is a Secondary also worth 4-pts. Finally, there are 3 Tertiary bonus points, each worth 1-pt. If you win the Primary (say, for example, you grab 3 objectives to 0 for your opponent), you get 4-pts. If you win the Secondary (say, for example, you beat your opponent on a modified Maelstrom table 10-1), you get 4-pts. Then add in any bonus Tertiary objectives you achieve for a total of up to 11-pts maximum.
I think it's a good change overall, though I think the '6' on the D-table should have been 3-wounds instead (still way better than the original 6+D6). However, it's going to be a double-edged sword. It's good because Eldar has so much D. However, if you're playing a knight army or bringing that Shadowsword LoW with your Imperial list, you're going to find it way underwhelming. Perhaps it would have been better to just nerf Distort on non-LoW units as opposed to the D overall. That is because I feel that the Eldar codex will be an anomaly. I doubt you're going to find this much D on any other army since and going forth.
I was pretty surprised when I saw those changes. Its a absolutely huge nerf. The average wounds from a single D hit before was 2.91 with over half of it coming from the monstrous 6 result. The ITC D only averages 1.33 wounds with one quarter of it coming from the 6 result. Personally I thought the 2-4 result was fine and only the crazy 6 result needed to be changed. If you kept the 2-4 result and just changed the 6 to a flat 3 it would average 1.8. I think it would strike a better balance between D needing to feel strong, but not wiping out a 600 point baneblade with a one shot from a 55 point artillery.
2015/05/24 14:26:32
Subject: 1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
Overnerfing D, untouching ridiculous army wide RP? Sillyness at the level of GW.
FWIW, I was the first vote giving this to the Nids. If you re-played he would not repeat his mistakes. 3x3 bikes would be murdered by Flyrants. Still waiting for someone to dare to nerf them, although where would that leave the Nids?
2015/05/24 19:32:13
Subject: 1850 ITC Practice Game - iNcontrol's Tyranids vs Jy2's Eldar
How do you feel the ITC changes to Destroyer played out?
Edit: Guess I was right with one of the 2 to pick the Eldar Stomp even with ITC rulings!
Seems even with modified d his opponent ran scared or heavily target prioritized the wraithguard and knight.
Wraithguard unless you have atrocious rolling also killed anything I range. Seemed the hardest part was just getting them in range.
The knight just seemed incredibly durable to last 5 turns with heavy shooting at it and it seemed his opponent was Afraid to fight it in assault as well. Other then that wave serpents don't look that threatening anymore but are still decent transports and jet bikes were the game winners for thier ob secured, speed, durability, and heavy rate of fire.
Impressive win considering how absolutely horrible and below average most of his rolls were.
Despite a mediocre Eldar list vs a standard tested tyranid tournament list and poor rolling by the eldar player it's another crushing win for the Eldar battle test. 9-0
One of the best ways to "eliminate" the threat of the WG's is to eliminate their ride and to do so early. Knowing this, that was why I outflanked them so that on the turn they came in, I just moved their serpents flat-out to get up close with Barbie. This way, it would have been hard for Barbie to escape next turn unless he screened it out (which was exactly what he was trying to do with Swarmy).
WK is actually really resilient in ruins. Assuming Barbie shooting at him (and not accounting for Prefered Enemy):
12 shots x 1/2 hit x 5/6 wound x 1/2 save x 2/3 bypass FNP = 1.67W a turn. That means it would have taken Barbie 2 turns of shooting both of his guns to deal 3W to my WK. While I did roll slightly above average with him, it wasn't totally unexpected that he didn't die. The WK really is one tough sonovagun for Tyranids to deal with. As for fighting against my WK in assault, that would mean that Barbie would have to go out into the open and risk getting hit with my D-cannons, only to have my WK strike 1st in CC. BTW, this was also the same reason why I didn't play so aggressively with my WK as well. Going after Barbie meant that my WK would be out in the open for 1 turn to get shot at before he makes it into terrain....and then he would strike last because he would have to charge through terrain.
I think it's a good change overall, though I think the '6' on the D-table should have been 3-wounds instead (still way better than the original 6+D6). However, it's going to be a double-edged sword. It's good because Eldar has so much D. However, if you're playing a knight army or bringing that Shadowsword LoW with your Imperial list, you're going to find it way underwhelming. Perhaps it would have been better to just nerf Distort on non-LoW units as opposed to the D overall. That is because I feel that the Eldar codex will be an anomaly. I doubt you're going to find this much D on any other army since and going forth.
I was pretty surprised when I saw those changes. Its a absolutely huge nerf. The average wounds from a single D hit before was 2.91 with over half of it coming from the monstrous 6 result. The ITC D only averages 1.33 wounds with one quarter of it coming from the 6 result. Personally I thought the 2-4 result was fine and only the crazy 6 result needed to be changed. If you kept the 2-4 result and just changed the 6 to a flat 3 it would average 1.8. I think it would strike a better balance between D needing to feel strong, but not wiping out a 600 point baneblade with a one shot from a 55 point artillery.
Yeah, it's a rather large nerf to D-weapons. Against Eldar, who can pack so much D into their army, it doesn't seem as big a nerf. However, against any other army, it is a huge nerf because those armies can only usually take 1 or 2 units with D (and they are usually expensive).
Naw wrote: Overnerfing D, untouching ridiculous army wide RP? Sillyness at the level of GW.
FWIW, I was the first vote giving this to the Nids. If you re-played he would not repeat his mistakes. 3x3 bikes would be murdered by Flyrants. Still waiting for someone to dare to nerf them, although where would that leave the Nids?
There is some opportunity cost for RP however. Necrons lose ObSec for the extra resiliency. Also their offense and mobility suffers (compared to before) with the increased resiliency. Eldar, on the other hand, are basically getting the D almost for free or at a cost unproportional to the overall effectiveness of the unit.
Yeah, with more experience, my Tyranid opponent can definitely beat me. I think this was his very first game against the new Eldar. I took him by surprise but next time, he'd definitely be more prepared.
So I am forced to fire the WK at him. At first I wanted to run my WK to the Skyfire objective (and cover as well), but now, he's going to be out in the open. Instead, he shoots....and my opponent finally fails a 2+ cover save! The Malanthrope finally goes down!
I then roll for Morale and roll 
, 
. Game over!
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
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7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 
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