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I had a game with an eldar player. He was using those eldar artillary pieces (d weapons ones). Due to an error in tactics he placed them within gun range. I announce that I'm targeting the guns crew. Of course he says "you can't target the guns crew".
Then I charge them with tomb blades...yet the crew was able to fire over watch (with their guns not the arty) then on top of that the crew could also fight back...yet I could only target the guns.
Now having an armored company I know some units like the wyverns don't have separate crew listings because their considered part of the vehicle.
So was he doing something wrong, or is this just a special eldar thing?

Artillery units follows normal wound allocation rules in that you allocate wound to the closest model (the guns are still models so can be allocated to). The only real difference for them is that in shooting instead of majority toughness they always use the gun's toughness (usually 7) and guns are ignored for morale purposes.

None of this applies to the Wyvern because thats a vehicle, not artillery.

Don't the gun and crew count as a three model unit?

IIRC in the shooting phase, you shoot the unit and allocate to closest model. If the gun is in front (as usual) then you allocate to it first.
In the assault phase, the controlling player allocates wounds, so he can take them on the gun or crew, but you are wounding against majority toughness so 2 crew + 1 gun = T3 for wounding. No?

The gun is ignored in close combat

Shooting:
If the Crew is the closest model, you allocate to them first. Or you have 'Precision Shots'. In both cases iirc, you use the Toughness of the Guns.

Assault:
All hits and wounds are against the Crew, and none of the hits can be allocated to the guns. I do remember there being some issue with how to resolve attacks if you can only make contact with the guns, or can only assault if you can reach the crew? I can't find anything on it.

So he should have been wounding against T3 anyway and when the crew die, gun dies. Even better!

 Akar wrote:
All hits and wounds are against the Crew, and none of the hits can be allocated to the guns. I do remember there being some issue with how to resolve attacks if you can only make contact with the guns, or can only assault if you can reach the crew? I can't find anything on it.

Getting into base contact with the crew is not required. The rules specify that you hit the crew even if you're only engaged with the guns.

 insaniak wrote:
Getting into base contact with the crew is not required. The rules specify that you hit the crew even if you're only engaged with the guns.

I agree, but I was just pointing out that there was some debate on it, so the OP could expect it to come up. That's all. A simple turning to Pg. 64 would've solved the original question, but we don't know if they didn't have books, or if they play w/o looking at them during games (Which happens at places where you have to pay by the hour to play!), or it's on Vassal, where you're not in person. Who knows. Just trying to let him know so that when he shoots/assaults them next time, it could come up.

 jokerkd wrote:
So he should have been wounding against T3 anyway and when the crew die, gun dies. Even better!

T7 versus shooting. Check the artillery unit type. Even if majority is T3 or crew are closer, you use the gun T if any remain. For shooting at least.

He was talking about close combat.

I see nothing that prevents you from targeting crew whether shooting or assaulting. It only specifies that wound allocation still goes to closest model when shooting and they all get T7. On assault it only specifies that even if a model is in base contact with the gun it's wounds are allocated to the crew. I see nothing preventing targeting the crew.

Why not just Flamer them? Then you have no gun, AAAAAND no crew!!!

Ember

 EmberlordofFire8 wrote:
Why not just Flamer them? Then you have no gun, AAAAAND no crew!!!

Ember

Because a flamer needs a 6 to wound?

Ok then Plasma or Roket launcher them?
Puhleees

 ProwlerPC wrote:
I see nothing that prevents you from targeting crew whether shooting or assaulting. It only specifies that wound allocation still goes to closest model when shooting and they all get T7. On assault it only specifies that even if a model is in base contact with the gun it's wounds are allocated to the crew. I see nothing preventing targeting the crew.

You target the unit, not crew or gun. In combat you cannot ever target the gun.

Yeah, the crew is not a separate unit from the guns. They're one unit. You can't target individual models inside a unit unless you have precision strike. That's like me saying I'm targeting the Nob in your squad of boys.

Aren't the Eldar artillery models unique in that one of the crew members is actually seated on the gun, so it can never be targeted by shooting?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Aren't the Eldar artillery models unique in that one of the crew members is actually seated on the gun, so it can never be targeted by shooting?

They might be modeled this way, but in game they do not play this way. The datasheet for their artillery lists how many crew there are, and that is how many they have. These crew member are supposed to be separate models from the gun itself, with their own bases.

Sorry. I'm thinking of targeting as drawing line of sight in this context, ie the player sitting there with his ruler and figuring out what is his shots. Didn't occur to me someone would consider the crew as a seperate unit from the gun.

Zimko wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Aren't the Eldar artillery models unique in that one of the crew members is actually seated on the gun, so it can never be targeted by shooting?

They might be modeled this way, but in game they do not play this way. The datasheet for their artillery lists how many crew there are, and that is how many they have. These crew member are supposed to be separate models from the gun itself, with their own bases.

But then how would you go about determining the mounted crew as being the closest model since it has no base and is effectively part of the gun model? While I get that they SHOULD be separate models, the Eldar model itself doesn't have this as an option as far as I know (so its not a modeling for advantage scenario).

As long as the Artillery piece and crew member are modeled clearly it should be fairly obvious which would be closest. Looking at a home for instance, which is closer the door or the window? They are parts of a whole that can be distinguished.

I normally play them with 3 crew members, using a spare guardian model for the last guy. The one on the gun is just there for looks then and doesn't actually do anything. Makes things a whole lot simpler.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
But then how would you go about determining the mounted crew as being the closest model since it has no base and is effectively part of the gun model?

He has a base. He just shares it with the gun.

So you measure to that base.