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I've done a bit of searching but haven't found much. I'm trying to make up some Lancastrian units for a Towton game using the Perry mini's box sets. (2x WOTR, 1 of the 1415 set which I assume is Agincourt, that I got by mistake).

All I've got so far is that the pike/men-at-arms to archers ratio is about 1:4-1:6, with rural armies being mostly archers. The Perry WOTR box comes with 40 minis and a single banner, so would I only need 1 banner for 10 x 4-man bases or would they be more often than that? 1 banner for 10 bases looks a bit sparse to me, but I'm assuming it's alright.

Should there only be a command stand (Commander, standard, trumpet, man-at-arms) with the rest just pike/archers, or would there be any sub-commanders mixed in with the units?

Would any of the commanders / men-at-arms be wearing the same armour as Agincourt? I know I can re-use the archers as peasent levy, and that almost no-one would notice the difference.

As you might guess, I'm totally new to the era.

Thanks

Not an expert by any means on WOTR but i have done some research for a few Lion Rampant retinues i have been doing.

On the subject of bill men to archers that seems to vary hugely, in the 100 years war you might have had as many as 4 to 5 units of bowmen to every bill unit, but by WOTR the longbow was undergoing a slight decline. Generally for wargames i tend to favour 2 archer units to 1 bill, this also has the advantage of working out nicely with a box of perry.

As for the Agincourt figures i have seen these mixed in quite nicely in WOTR forces, after all armour was rather expensive so it is not unreasonable that you would see older armour being reused on the battlefield.

You might also find this blog entry useful

http://chuckgame.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/war-of-roses-army-project-planning-and.html

Ideal, thanks. The bill:archer ratio is especially reassuring as due to not paying attention to assembling the first box I'm at 1 command, 3 bills, 6 archers.

Edit: That link is excellent. It even covers my chosen noble (Beafort of Somerset), because the paint scheme is a bit like the Bretonians I started with

Agincourt period armour may well have been worn by poorer types, however it was most definitely not in fashion, and by this point it wouldn't be in great condition (think of trying to drive a 40 year old car).

I intend to use them for shire units / levies as I build up a HYW collection in its own right. But first I have another 5 battles (approx 1,500 point armies) at least of WotR to do...

Good point. I was assuming there'd be some heirloom value to them and if maintained properly they'd last a long time (being that there's no moving parts).

But on inspection they look quite different. I'm re-using the archers anyway so I'll knock up a couple of stands of the men at arms to use as a royal escort and hope no-one says anything

That's also quite the collection. I'm probably going to stick with my 3 Perry boxes for now (~29 bases) though I'm resisting the temptation to get a baggage train and assorted extras. I'm trying to keep the massive games to 15mm scale.

Herzlos I'm prepared forces for this era too, have got hold of a rule set called 'Bloody Barons' by Peter Pig, which focuses only on the WoTR and is therefore very period-specific and characterful (there's lot of 'politics' involved in the pre-match build-up; units not arriving, or arriving late, delayed action by commanders as they wait to see which way the wind blows etc.)

A great part of the book it has orders of battle for the major WoTR engagements, so for Towton you have:

Yorkists (actual troop numbers: 36,000)
Lord Fauconberg (William Neville)
1 Household unit
2 Retinue Units (with two additional bow bases per)

Edward
1 Household unit
3 Retinue units

Warwick
2 Retinue units
1 Levy unit

Lancastrians (actual troop numbers: 40,000)
John Lord Neville
1 Household unit
2 retinue units
1 Levy unit

Duke of Somerset (Henry Beaufort)
1 Household unit (1 extra fighting base)
3 Retinue units (2 extra fighting bases per unit)
1 Levy unit

Duke of Northumberland (Henry Percy)
2 Retinue units
2 Levy units

To give you some idea basing convention is 3 (or 4 with a squeeze) miniatures on one 40mmx40mm base. A standard unit is 8 of these bases.
I'm planning on 'doubling up' the retinue and levy unit numbers, and as Salad_Fingers has mentioned above about 2-1 is a good ratio of bowmen to billmen.
So, for example John Neville would have his household unit, 4 retinue units, 2 levy units. Of these one of the retinue units might be billmen, and one of the levy.

Concerning the designation of 'Household', 'Retinue' and 'Levy'
Household - Use your Perry 'Foot Knight 1450-1500' for these; the best, professional soldiers in the army, armed with the best plate armour (with chainmail under-armour) made in England, Germany or Italy.
Levy - A common misconception is that Levy of this period were peasants armed with farm implements and the like. But, they were actually well equipped for the most part, with quilted material (the 'jack') and metal helmets and would have been provided with liveried clothing. I contrast these with 'Retinue' (who were often professional soldiery) by using the miniatures from the WoTR set with the plate chest piece and chainmail showing.
Another way of differentiating the units (although it's probably not historically accurate) is to mix in some 100yr-war archers and billmen with the 'Levy units' and a few of the Perry metal archers (the ones wearing chain) with the 'retinue' units.

Hopefully that is some use to you!

Herzlos wrote:
Good point. I was assuming there'd be some heirloom value to them and if maintained properly they'd last a long time (being that there's no moving parts).

I've had similar thoughts. I imagine that the armour could have been carefully stored in oiled cloths and locked away somewhere safe, if it was only used perhaps once or twice in a generation it might still be serviceable.

I've used this rationale as justification to mix in the odd 100-yr war armour set (bascinet helm, fluted edges etc.) with the captain of the odd levy unit, or his retinue of one or two guys, perhaps wearing the older armour.

3/4 on a 40x40mm base seems like quite a squeeze, we're going with 4 on a 60x40mm base and it's about as tight as I'd like it to go (I'm putting them on bases and then painting though so I'll have something I can field whatever state they are in at the time).

I'll have a look out for 'Bloody Barons' too, thanks.

Here we go, this is what 3 on a base looks like for a Levy unit (although the captain unit is just the two). But yes four is a bit of a squeeze..

Making it as simple as possible and avoiding all the complicated stuff the basic unit would have been a companie with a company banner (the square type), normally taking the colours of the lord. A companie would have been commanded by a Sergent or Vinter and would have a banner bearer bearing the companie banner, usually the small square ones featuring the livery of the lord the companie belonged to and a device to show which company it was.

There is sparse evidence on the actual troop types in companies. Some sources point to companies being a mix of troops, usually a melee type troop and a missile type troop, though this is contested, on the wargames table it is far easier to represent a companie using one troop type. The troops within the companie varied depending on what troop types the lord could muster and the money he could afford to spend on them

Companies would be under the command of a noble (lord, Knight)

The Noble would usually keep a retinue of trained men who fought with the lord.

The Noble would have a banner bearer following him during the battle to mark his position on the field who would fly a pennant (the really long triangular flags) Sometimes there would be a banner present to all of the companies under the Noble

Nobles would form their companies into battles, In the wars of the roses a system of 4 battles was normally used, with the strongest being the Commanders battle with was the 'main', then you have the 'Van' and the 'rearward' battle.

The you have the Commander, who again would have his own pennant, with his retinue, which may have had a banner.

Each Noble would have been able to identify at least the nobles flags on their side so with a glance they could who was where,

So, there were many banners, all important and denoting much useful information.

I hope this helps regards to banners. I also recommend the following link for a few banners and Pennants.

http://www.warflag.com/flags/medieval/wotr.shtml

A lot of the armour in the wars of the roses would have been the same style, maybe even some hundred years war vintage would have been utilised. One thing is certain though, not shields (other than the buckler and wicker shields of the Kerns) and no Great Helms were used during the wars of the roses. Sallets, Kettle helms, Barbutes, War hats etc are the way to go for headgear. We could go into the difference in clothing but it isn't worth it for 28mm models.

If you are having trouble try clicking on the link in my signature and checking the pictures. I re enact the period and my groups website has many pictures that may be of help.


A lot of the research done on this subject is guess work and is based on Formations of the 16th and 17th century, so be careful where you tread.

Very useful, thanks.

I'll have a look at your sig link from home, it's blocked from work.