Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play a Slaaneshi CSM army, I usually use Noise Marines and Cultists as troops but are stock marines good for anything? Because they can't combat squad, but hey can take a CCW, which is interesting.

Any thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

They can take two specials at 10man, which Tac Marines can't (though Tacs will probably get that in the new Marine codex). Other than that, they do the same job as any other Marine - drive around in a Metal Box, jump out and Rapid Fire something, then die to the many many things that can easily kill T4 3+ models.

Well if you play slaanesh, Fabius bile comes to mind. Suddenly they're not so stock any more.

They're pretty average I'd say. I use them for fluff reasons as I prefer power dudes over unworthy cultists.
They can work reasonably well in 20 man blobs, especially with a buff or two. They become pretty hard to shift if you stick a character in there.

5 in a rhino with flamer have worked ok too for keeping/getting some wayward objective as they don't draw much attention.

I find that gearing by gearing them up they can become quite good, but then they're so expensive you may as well take the actual cult unit. With the exception of fabius perhaps. Of course he's not exactly a free upgrade either so meh.

Other configurations don't seem to do much for me personally.

No. Hell, Plague Marines get the special weapons for overall CHEAPER. All you get is more Bolters, and who's really gonna want that?

I use them, but I am often disappointed by them. They really need to take the vengeance icon for fearless, or else they just get charged by something and swept.

I use them as fairly tough but expendable 5 man squads to capture objective with obj secured. Although, 10 man squad with the feel no pain banner in addition to init 5 (since you said you are going Slaanesh) means that they are a fairly durable unit at a reasonable price. They aren't super amazing, but they can definitely hold their own. As always, it depends on the opponent, your list, etc., of course.

TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
I play a Slaaneshi CSM army, I usually use Noise Marines and Cultists as troops but are stock marines good for anything? Because they can't combat squad, but hey can take a CCW, which is interesting.

Any thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

They are also a point cheaper and can be taken in squads of 20.

20 chaos marines with CCW and Pistol is only 260 points(270 with champion). That is fairly difficult to remove(T4 3+ for 13 points a model is surviable). Add in a fearless HQ and you have a fairly nasty assault unit [which cannot move very fast].

Still it is something loyalist marines cannot do. They can take assault marines without jump packs, but not in squads of 20. They cannot be marked, they cannot have VotLW or take Icons

For the biggest band for your dollar, Fabius Bile accompanied by a ML3 Sorcerer rolling for invisibility tagging along side 20 CSM of Nurgle will bog down or out right plow through anything really.

Fabius will make them str 5 and Fearless, then infiltrate them into enemy lines. Make them invisible and you have str5 T5 Marines all equip with Krak and CCW + Pistols. Shoot their Pistols and charge with 3 attacks on the charge. Thats 60 attacks on the charge at Str 5 on an invisible unit that also have Krak Grenades. Give your champion a Melta Bomb as well for equal effect against heavily armored Vehicles and MCs.

Relatively cheap all considering at ~700 points for 20 bodies that are infiltrating and 2 HQs.

Chaos Space Marines are bad. They are bad not just due to their price per stats but because of a sheer lack of thoughts on their synergy and transport within the CSM codex. It is like taking anything and everything that makes SM TAC squads even remotely worthwhile and stripping it.

Having said that I have figured out a few ways to use them in semi effective ways.
1) A unit of 5-9 CSM with Kharne or some other nasty CC lord in a dreadclaw to drop down turn 1 and boost into the opponent's face. You almost always get at least 1 charge and they can kill most things they charge in 1-2 rounds of combat.
2) A dreadclaw with a unit of 10 CSM w/ MoN and Fearless Icon w/ 2 meltaguns, 1 combi-melta, and melta bombs. This is essentially a DS scoring option that can also be used to finish vehicles.
3) Ablative wounds for a lord or sorcerer. Very mediocre but they are one of the better options for a foot lord or sorcerer.

Their a hopelessly under developed unit, it's one of those "if only you were codex space marines" units. Csm in codex space marines would be pretty good.

Imo they should share a statline with stern guard that would make them much better imo. Chaos space marines have been fighting for bloody ages more than basically any loyalist still breathing barring exceptions like sapphon, Cassius, as Dante and they struggle shooting at things becauseeeee???

CSM are really good when you support them properly. A squad of 20 infiltrated by Huron/Ahriman joined by Cypher will wreck face. Outflank with accute sences from a Slaanesh lord on a seeker is fine too but reserves are always tricky and infiltration works way better.

But when you try to use csm as tac marines in rhinos, they're worse. Not too bad but simply worse.

There is absolutely no way in which a regular Chaos Space Marine is good.

No overpriced special character or upgrade will change the fact that they cost the same (or more) than Space Marines, but lack the single good rule Space Marines have.

When was the last time you thought Space Marines were good? CSM are worse.

The only reason to take CSM is you absolutely want to play a CSM CAD and must take Troop choices. Even then, Cultists do the same (essentially: fill the Troop slot, sit on an objective, die) for cheaper. The one advantage they have is that you can give CSM a Rhino with Tzeenakh the Occluder.

Here is the only way I find them as not garbage.

5 man unmarked unit with melta gun. If points permit melts bomb on champion.

Plus rhino with havoc launcher and dozer blade.

This unit sits in the back shooting the launcher (48" range!) and is used exclusively to grab objectives as needed.

It is relatively low threat, has a long range, and with the s5 ap5 small blast twin linked launcher you will get kills on softening up infantry.

Secondary roll is a reactionary melta shot against targets that get into your back line. They have gotten the killing blow on imperial knights for me during some desperate circumstances.

I personally find I get much more utility out of this unit than the equivalent value in cultists.

Hope this helps.

CSM are not a great unit, but they are not horrible either. My personal way of "testing" units is asking myself "At what points cost would they become spammable?". For CSM I'd say that cost is about 11, meaning that 12 pts would probably be fair and then the "tax" for playing CSM is about 1 pts per model. If you want to use them, for me that is acceptable.

Stock with a bolter they are less reliable Space Marine Tacticals. They are not even cheaper because if IIRC the sergeant is not mandatory for Tacticals. In this case I feel CSM are striclty worse...

Swap bolter for a bolt pistol and you have something that is different from a Tactical. A unit that is better than tacticals in CC but worse at a distance. To be fair there are a lot of units that will, point for point, loose a close up fight with these guys. After all they are only 13 pts per model. This is my current preference.

The Icons are also underestimated because most people forget they add +1 wound to your combat score. This is actually huge when fighting units lacking AP3, For example 10 tacticals in a ongoing combat will actually only deal 10 * (1/2) * (1/2) * (1/3) = 10 / 12 = 5 / 6 wound on average. This means that fighting those Tacticals you are acutally winning on average without landing a single blow!

For a large unit (15-20) adding mark and icon of Khorne, Nurgle or Slaanesh adds value to the boltpistol + CCW CSM. My personal favourite is Slaanesh for that extra initiative and FnP icon. Put a power weapon on the champion and he will have a good chance of winning challenges.

For smaller units I feel added cost is too high.

Special weapons are tempting but could be a trap, especially for a unit on foot. If your intent is to get into CC having plasma/melta will tempt you to shoot instead of run. Flamers are ok, because if you can flame you can also charge.

For a unit in a Rhino, special weapons make sense.

Delivery is the really hard part. Rhino rush is tested and tried. Walking (possibly infiltrating) a large unit centrally is also viable. I agree they need support. CSM alone will not win you any wars, so make sure your opponent has other things to focus on until the CSM get upfield.

I'm currently experimenting with a large unit to cover the midfield behind a lot of fast units. Their job is to make sure fast units cannot slip away. We will see how that works out!

 ionusx wrote:
Their a hopelessly under developed unit, it's one of those "if only you were codex space marines" units. Csm in codex space marines would be pretty good.

Imo they should share a statline with stern guard that would make them much better imo. Chaos space marines have been fighting for bloody ages more than basically any loyalist still breathing barring exceptions like sapphon, Cassius, as Dante and they struggle shooting at things becauseeeee???

The problem is that the "Chaos Marine" covers everything from recent renegades to original traitor legions. If you want 'fighting forever legionaries' then that's where the Black Legion or Fallen Champions come in - because you can build your army entirely out of Chosen marines, who do have a marine veteran's statline - and a bolter, pistol and close combat weapon to boot.

You just have to accept that any unit that has its loyalist counterpart is better due to GW trading 1 less point for +1 LD, no ATSKNF and no Chapter Tactics, oh and also forcing your champion to challenge so that if he dies your marines get the same LD as the loyalist and if he doesn't he'll get some useless rewards 90% of the time.

It's pretty sad that the only 2 armies that are really affected by fear are orks and CSM, any other army that isn't fearless or with ATSKNF already has WS2-1.

But regarding CSM troops, they are ok but in almost any circumstance can be replaced with cultists and will get the same job done for less.

That being said I do field 2 10 man squads in rhinos with plasmas and meltas because I do like my power armor models and if you are already at disadvantage by playing chaos why no go fluffy and look good?

I like Khorne Chosen from Black Legion and zerkers... That's it.

 GoonBandito wrote:
They can take two specials at 10man, which Tac Marines can't (though Tacs will probably get that in the new Marine codex). Other than that, they do the same job as any other Marine - drive around in a Metal Box, jump out and Rapid Fire something, then die to the many many things that can easily kill T4 3+ models.

What this guy said, only I sit on an objective and try to keep the metal box out of LoS. 2 specials, 10 dudes, a metal box. Done.

I find the 5 extra dudes + gun aren't worth the points to do his job. 5 seem to get the job done just as well most of the time.