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Hi there, tacticians.

I'm currently awaiting the arrival of my ork Warbikers and I know they'll be put up against a Space Marine biker list soon after they're ready.

So, in a vacuum (I know, I know), how would you play the opening turns of a game where a full Warbiker squad (14 bikes, PK boss pole nob, 310pts) is pitted against a roughly equivalent points value of biker marines?

Perhaps someone can help with how that marine squad would be composed?

Given that you win the roll-off would you take first turn? Would you turbo-boost into their face on your turn, get your 3+ jink and eat their shooting and charge in order to get your overwatch off?

Maybe turbo boost out of their safe charge range, eat their shooting for a turn and then shoot and charge them on the following turn?

Would you want night-fighting for a 2+ jink? (Does that improve their jink too?)

Or would you let them go first, safely avoiding their charge, loose your jink boost from turbo boosting, and then give them both barrels of shooting and charge?

What about if your squad also has a painbiker?

Any advice on this scenario or sage words from experienced ork/marine bikers are welcome

My traditional tactic is to send my bikes up one flank toward a long-range threat. So i usually go with the turbo-boost 1st turn, hoping for night-fighting for the 2+ jink save. Then turn 2 assault the backfield objective holder, crack a light vehicle, or assault whatever is going to blow up your vehicles. Lascannons, thunderfire cannons, whatever. So if he had a backfield unit that wasn't bikes, I would go for that.

If his list is purely bikes, then you will, at all costs, need to ensure you get the assault, and that he cant assault you. Additionally, the jink save is really what saves the bikes. That being said, be wary of relying on the jink save when in rapid fire/grav-gun range.

So while it sounds like going 2nd might be the best idea, Orks would prefer to only endure 1 turn of shooting before charging. So always go first. Orks really need to go first every game.

So go first, turbo-boost only if you feel there is a lot of firepower aimed in your direction. If it's only an equal sized squad of bikes staring you down, try to get some shooting done. Warbikes shooting can actually be pretty impressive.

However, in most cases your first movement will put you out there in the open, so id recommend turbo-boosting out of charge range and jinking if anything shoots you. Then go for the 2nd turn charge.

Take note that ork bikers will easilly outshoot sm bikers - even with grav. So, i'd not be so straight-forward about mellee. Especially when there are some nasty sm characters in there.

I'm coming at this from an SM perspective (I play Salamanders usually, but White Scars biker lists are what I otherwise run):

Turboboost you warbikers on your first turn and jink for 3+ saves. You want to be in close combat on your first turn - ideally multiassault. Warbikers beat the snot out of SM bikers in close combat, having three times as many base attacks and an armor save that is not much worse than the marine's 3+ saves.

SM bike's special weapons are not particularly effective against warbikes (they will do some damage with grav guns, but you can just jink against it). The main thing you'll have to watch out for is any cheeky Salamanders players who like to run 2 flamers + combiflamer on their bikes, who can get brutal overwatch against your warbikers. Even then, you could just kite his flamer squads and dakka the crap out of them.

You generally do want nightfighting, for the reasons you stated. I can't think of a lot of reasons why you wouldn't - maybe if you're focusing on Dakka.

 koooaei wrote:
Take note that ork bikers will easilly outshoot sm bikers - even with grav. So, i'd not be so straight-forward about mellee. Especially when there are some nasty sm characters in there.

Interesting, it does appear that you're right about that. Warbikers seem like they would be a good general counter to SM bike spam.

Thanks for the marine perspective!
I don't own C:SM - do marines get the jink bonus for turbo-boosting like warbikers?

Turboboost you warbikers on your first turn and jink for 3+ saves. You want to be in close combat on your first turn - ideally multiassault.

But you cant charge if you turboboost so how do you get off a T1 charge?

 Ratius wrote:

Turboboost you warbikers on your first turn and jink for 3+ saves. You want to be in close combat on your first turn - ideally multiassault.

But you cant charge if you turboboost so how do you get off a T1 charge?

They're mutually exclusive, I am aware - I just didn't write my post very clearly. To clarify: you want to charge on first turn (which is totally possible if you're going second and the SM player was foolish enough to move to close to you). If a first turn charge is impossible or infeasible, you want to turboboost. Though, seeing koooaei's comment, maybe it's worth it to forgo the improved jink so you can get shooting attacks.

You can weather a turn of shooting - Warbikers are well equipped to avoid heavy losses from SM shooting. The only SM weapon that can slice through your cover and armor saves are heavy flamers. Everything else, you'll at least get a 4+ save against.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
Thanks for the marine perspective!
I don't own C:SM - do marines get the jink bonus for turbo-boosting like warbikers?

Only white scars. Do you know what color his marines are? Actually, they just get a flat +1 bonus to jink, doesnt matter if they turbo boost or not.

Warbikers have vastly superior shooting vs Marines than CC.

Head to head, point for point, I'd only shoot and not assault. Str of the gun is much better than Str 4 or 3 of the boys. You can always Jink and not worry about shooting, you'll still get plenty of hits. Also if your opponent assaults, you have one of the best Overwatch guns in the game! A full Mob, with PainBoy, is a durable unit. It's LD is its worst part. Too bad Nobikers are so expensive. They should've gotten a price drop as well.

As far as back field disrupters, Outflanking or 24 Turboboosting Rokkit DeffKoptas are superior to Bikes.

I have shot SM Tactical Marines off the table with my Warbikers, and at the same time I have had my Warbikers fail to kill units in the Assault because at the end of the day a warbiker mob is just a T5 undermanned boyz squad. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT!

Once you add a painboy and warboss that undermanned unit becomes pretty amazing.

Honestly if they weren't $15 a model, I would run more. As is I only own 15, a warboss on a bike, 2 meks on bikes (sag, kff), and a painboy on a bike. I generally run a unit of 6-9. Once I have 30-45 I'll be happy. Till then...

Not so sure I'd send Boyz on bikes into melee and instead use em as a shoota sqaud. Nobz on bikes on the otherhand I'd make more melee worthy since they have the options for it. But wow they are expensive.

Also as salamanders, I generally run a command squad of bikes with shields and grav with a chapter master shield eternal and artificer armor with a doc. It's not for killing an orc mob, so you hitting it would wipe them easy.

I think the per-model cost is a big reason we don't see more Warbiker spam. They're such a good unit, but a full 45 plus two docs and a boss would be 16 boxes at about 33 euros each. Over 500 euros for 1100-1200 points, before they come out of the box! I'm convince quantity is better than quality in 40k, but few can afford the time and money to put together an army with so many bodies.

Warbikers seem to be comparable to or better than SM bikers, but you certainly see a lot more SM biker spam.

So making sure you get in a round of shooting seems to be key. 15 Warbikers shooting will kill about 4 marine bikers and give a full unit a good chance of failing their leadership and riding off the table (3d6) if you shoot them before they can move. They can be crippled fairly effectively.

I'm guessing (someone else do the maths, please) equivalent points of marine bikes will do about the same amount of damage if they have grav guns and get to shoot first ( not including night-fighting or the turbo bonus), which the 15 orks can shrug off much more easily.

Bikes are definitely a shooty unit more than a punchy one. They're just ard boyz with T5, 4 attacks each is nice but having to eat a round of swings from the marines can be very painful especially if they get a power weapon in there.

I would usually only charge to finish them off after dakka. Orks love the charge, and FC really helps to kill off T5 (5+ is twice as good as 6+ to wound). Really not a good idea to sacrifice shooting for charging, such as with the turbo boost suggestions made earlier

Not so sure I'd send Boyz on bikes into melee and instead use em as a shoota sqaud. Nobz on bikes on the otherhand I'd make more melee worthy since they have the options for it. But wow they are expensive.

It pains me to say it, but I don't think they're worth it anymore in vanilla 40k. Same price as before, but lost 5++. 5++ was the reason they were worth taking. 6+ FNP from cybork body betrays the utter incompetence of the author of this book, as a unit like this will have a Painboy with it at all times.

Will be putting them to use with Zagman's errata though. A +1 to FNP from cybork means they have 4+++ instead of 5++ from last edition. Not an improvement but at least keeps them feasible.

I run White Scars...

Chapter Master - bike - artificer armor - auspex - shield eternal - power fist

Librarian - Level 2 Psyker (Telepathy) - bike - force axe

Command squad - bikes - 4x stormshield - 4x grav gun - thunderhammer
Apothecary

If the Librarian rolls up Invisibility you're in trouble. He can always shriek you which is generally going to be painful.

Chapter Master can drop orbital strike which doubles out your Nobs. Chapter Master can tank wounds with 2+/3++ and 5++ FNP.

Once in combat Librarian can roll up force so no FNP for you.

White Scars can also hit and run... So they'll get out of combat, shoot you and charge again.

I never had any problems with Warbikes.

You might want to invest in the FW special character war boss biker... 2++ jink even without night fight.

The shootyness and choppyness of warbikes seems pretty balanced to me. HoW, 4 attacks on the charge, 12" movement, T5, Furious Charge, 'Ere We Go.

Up against marine bikers, would you rather charge them and eat their overwatch and get your HoW, or let them charge you an let them eat your (better) overwatch? It depends on a lot of factors, mainly to do with how many models each side has left.

@ Dozer: how many points does that all come to? I don't doubt that all that can deal with a maxed squad of bikers, but I'm thinking more of roughly balanced points levels.

The thing about the FW bikerboss is that he has 6+ armour. :(

Mind you, he strikes at initiative, so he could stay at the back during shooting and then take on challenges against I1 characters.

Hmm you could make a super bike squad by putting warboss on a bike and a painboy on a bike. But if you want the head to head break down i'll put my money on orks. If you want to headlong charge into them and turbo boost. You will want night fighting. This would grant them a 2+ cover save. Which is not a bad idea. If the space marine player decided to charge you, you would get 3x12 (assuming you lost 3 bikes to gun fire before hand from the sm bikes) 36 TL snap shots. Needing 4's to wounded. So would get about 6-8 wounds in. He might lose 1-3 bikes. Hopefully 1 would be a sgt with some form of a power weapon. He will get to attack you first. You will most likely lose 1-2 bikes. 10 bikes including a nob. So 9x3 attacks from the boys + 3 pk attacks. If the boys will be at a huge disadvantage at that point. They are only str 3. you would need 6's to wound. Pk would be key to whip the squad.

my plan is to run 2 full squads with PK BP nob and Painbiker with a lucky stikk PK biker boss in one of the squads in a 1850 pt game. The three troop choices will be 'ardboyz in trukks, unlocking the 3rd HQ. the rest are tankbustas in a killkannon battlewagon and a deffkopta.

Hoping for first turn!

Whats the preferred way to run a lot of bikers? Like 30-60 bikes in one army at some large points level.

Presume I don't want to do eldar style "3 troop bikers run onto objectives and hope the game ends" stuff.

My build is Zhadsnark as warlord, to which you add a MLS/PK/Bike warboss in the same detachment. From a Waaagh! Ghazgkhul detachment you then add a painboy on bike and a big mek with killsaw, BBP and MFF for fearless and a 4+ invul. These ladz attach to a maxed out biker mob, and then proceed to roll over anything in their way. At higher point levels, keep another Bike mob as a spare - when you've used enough boyz in the first (super ressilient) squad as LoS fodder, you can then move all your force multiplying characters to a new fresh mob and keep the hitting power.

Scout, Turbo-boost turn one for a 2+ jink (skilled rider from Zhad) while ignoring terrain (also SR) and then multi-assault turn 2. It is simply glorious.

Do you have trouble managing zhadsnark's 6+ armour in challenges?

So, in comparison to a regular (PK, BP, Lucky Stikk) biker boss, he:

Hits at initiative,
Adds +1 jink,
Allows his unit to move safely through terrain,
Makes bikers troops,
Gives Scout,
Has tank shock shenanigans which are tricky,

Costs 10 pts more,
Has 6+ armour,
Has a fixed warlord trait (if he's the warlord),
Restricts the use of some units (if he's the warlord),
Can't take Da Lucky Stikk (or any other gifts).

Did I miss anything?

So he is a trade off, but seems worth it if you're careful how to handle him - his low armour is offset by ablative wounds of those with higher armour in his unit, for example.

Bike for bike, if I didn't have a PK nob, I'd just out shoot the marine bikes

Marine bikes-
3ppm more expensive
Twinlinked bolter
Option to buy 2 special weapons
Str4 T5, 3+ armor

Warbiker
3ppm less than a marine bike
Gets a dakks gun, which is miles better than a bolter
Comes stock with 3 attacks base compared to 1
Str3, T5, 4+

You want to shoot, then charge. Or, if possible just shoot.

Reasons-
In melee you hit on 4s yes, but no rerolls.
You wound on 5s first round, 6s after.

Shooting- gaurenteeed 3 attacks each,
Twin linked hitting on 5s (you hit about as much as you do in melee if not more)
Wounding on 4s,
No retaliation.

Alright, STOP.

Mathhammer time.

15 bikes, including nob with PK. Vs. 12 bike marines:

15x3 shots = 45 shots,
45, hitting on 5s, re-rolling = 25 hits,
Wounding half the time = 12.5 wounds,
1/3rd of which get through = 4.16 ish unsaved wounds.

On the charge:

HoW is situational, and therefore a nice bonus.

You've already killed marines, but let's say you lose 2 bikers from marines hitting first and their overwatch.

11 boyz, 4 attacks = 44 attacks,
22 hits,
7 wounds,
2.5 unsaved wounds.

Overall, you've probably dealt with 6-7 marines before power fists/klaws get to strike, and lost 2 boyz.

If you turbo boost and let them come to you:

12 twinlinked bolters, maybe with grav:
10.6 hits, 3.5 wounds, 1 dead ork (jink),
Your overwatch kills about 2
HoW is unpredictable,
Maybe 3 more die from their attacks. You kill 2 of them (s3, a3).
Then come the klaw/fists.

So even if they get full shooting and charge, it works out ok points wise for the orks. As always, it depends on lots of other factors, but it's still interesting.

Cc between both types of bikers (approx equal points) will very likely end in favour of the orks (much less so if the marines charge) but will be slow going, especially for larger units.

A shoot-out ends in favour of the orks every time.

You don't want to risk them getting the charge off on you, as you want to minimise your own losses. So no turbo-boosting up to their face.

You definitely want to shoot them before combat, as you definitely will do damage. Another mark against turbo boosting.

If they shoot you, you will suffer small losses, but nothing too bad.

All things considered, I would be tempted to give them first turn, and roll for night fighting. All he can do is move up and shoot you (unless you hide out of LoS). He'll then be in range for you to shoot him and charge him and hopefully take care of his whole squad and lose only a few orks in 1 turn.

The wise marine could avoid combat by kiting the orks at 24", picking off 1-2 models per turn, and still be out of reach for charges, but that's just inviting a shootout which the orks will win, eventually.

Orks can't kite marines effectively because 18" is the average charge threat range for marine bikes. If you're going to get close enough to shoot them, you'd better get close enough to charge them too.

pocketcanoe wrote:
The thing about the FW bikerboss is that he has 6+ armour. :(

Bike confers 4+ armour

Take zhand, hes a beast, absolute beast.

I loved the idea a few comments up; Maxed biker squads, where you have Zhand , painboy, then a W!G BBP and MMF... Ouch! a unit that has a 4+ invun with a 5+ FNP, not to mention a jink save and plenty of combat power. Yeh you might run into some douche with a horrible 2+/3++/5+++ on a bike, but against a unit that has maybe 2-3 PK characters and a nob to eat a challenge you are going to lose the nob and some boyz, while your PKs ruin his day.

I'm currently working on a themed Bike list; 'The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse'
So its just 4 units each with a warboss/BM on bike, so im basically running 4 units that each carry a huge beatstick.

As for the issue of having enough money to buy bikes;
YOU PLAY ORKS! Convert something! anything! Kids toy bikes? go to a carboot sale and grab some small toys and turn them into bikes. buying 3 bikes at like £20 is outrageous considering 3 bikes is 54 points.

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As for the choice between CCing or shooting.
With Zhand you have skilled rider, so you ignore difficult terrain. Sit at 18" in terrain, unload 45 shots + all your chars shots, then when he comes to charge, you not only have -2 to his charge range but he also strikes at initiative 1 unless bikes have assault grenades? Which they probably do, they are marines, (I have a marine -almost-free meta oddly).

But in general I think bikers are;
A shooty unit, that can be thrown into CC to clean up either after shooting or when taking a charge. VS another bike unit you are likely going to outshoot with pure volume, meaning they will want to come to you. But your overwatch is only 1/2 as effective as your normal shooting so he's gona take some serious casualties over the course of 1 game turn.

How about then bringing a barebones 3 man bike unit to use a screen? They can simply sit sideways in front of your squad, making charge range longer or impossible. Yeh he can charge them and wipe them, but next turn you'll be giving him round 2 of 45 shots followed by your charge.

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On the note of cost;
I was looking to see what I could convert into bikes/ count as bikes and I found; 8 pull back toy cars for £2 on amazon, cut out the roof, add some orkiness and stick in a driver and I think they will be perfect If it goes well i'll make a little demo to show how I did it.

Solar Shock wrote:

Bike confers 4+ armour

Nope, the description of bikes in the BRB doesn't say anything about that. Warbike in C:O confers a 4+ armour save, but Zhadsnark doesn't have one. He has Da Beast!

it seems you are right, he doesn't have a warbike and nowhere does da beast confer a save. his unit type is bike and the BRB doesn't give him a 4+, ouch. Hadn't noticed that. Oversight yet again it seems.

would just have to keep him out of challenges then it seems and let him PK stuff at initiative. unless ofc you are going into a challenge against something with a lower initiative and AP3 or lower (as having a 4+ wouldn't have mattered anyway). Painboy would be a good addition then.

yeah, i mean he can't take the Lucky Stick so he's not going to be up front in a unit anyway, and most characters that want to challenge him aren't going to worry too much about 4+ armour anyway. It would just be annoying to lose him to some lucky bolter shots to the rear.

Thank god for LoS and yeh it means you need to be a little careful with positioning.