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There used to be a Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Chaos Undivided is no longer a thing. There are no undivided Daemon Princes, except for Be'lakor. I guess Perturabo and Lorgar also count, even though Be'lakor is supposed to be the only undivided prince. So confusing.

Now, a landscape where the undivided Chaos worshiper doesn't exist is just fine and dandy for the four cult legions and the daemonkin out there. This also works as far as the Black Legion is concerned, old Ezekyle is quite uniquely marked by all the Great Powers and can therefore attract the servitude of Chaos Space Marines of all stripes. Nurgle and Tzeentch worshipers can work together because their leader is blessed by both of their respective gods. It's not a major issue with Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion or Night Lords either - no reason why they couldn't run differently marked warbands, although the risk of splintering is higher here than it is for the Black Legion and opposing religious factions within the "legion" should kill each other on sight really. What it most definitely does, however, is cause problems for the Word Bearers, who in established fluff are Chaos Undivided to the core and call heresy on those who engage in monolatry.

Yes, I know, you can run CSM unmarked, but all the efforts to make Undivided not be a thing means unaligned isn't much fun. Consider that there are no daemon armies that are undivided, and you can't unlock cult troops if you are running an unmarked Chaos Lord for your CSM. This is a problem.

Now, all this actually makes a lot of sense. Chaos is and was always about the big four. But how do we retcon things so that fluff and rules feel consistent on this point?

Chaos Undivided still exists in the lore, its just that because there's no "god of chaos undivided", you can't have a mark for it.

Agreed. Just because there is only one Undivided Prince doesn't mean Undivided is no longer a thing. No need to retcon anything.

I think it makes sense for any self-interested Chaos worshipper to go undivided. Unless you're particularly interested in becoming a pustulant mass, a mewling Spawn, a raging 'zerker or a fawning lust-toady... in other words, if you're interested in remaining yourself... your best bet is to limit yourself to the lesser gifts of multiple Chaos powers.

In game and fluff terms I'd like to see the vast bulk of Chaos worshippers be Undivided, in the sense that they're trying to get as much as possible out of Chaos while sacrificing as little as possible.

Only the most dedicated of fanatics should be going full-bore gonzo for a single deity. The rewards of going mono deity should be great, but the costs should be significant too. Undivided should be more flexible and less restrictive.

My two cents.

Venerating Chaos Undivided does not mean you're ignoring the Great Four. Quite the opposite, in fact... it means you are rendering them devotion in equal measures.

And before you say "equal measures of nothing is still nothing" I will point out that makes you aligned to Necoho and/or Malal.

I would just bring back Chaos Undivided and retcon the whole Bel'akor is the only Undivided Daemon Prince into non-existence.

Also not entirely related I'd get rid of Daemon Princes all being MCs, make it like 3.5 where they could be any shape and size it all depended on the number of gifts you gave them.

I think the problem for me is that going unaligned/unmarked doesn't carry quite the same gravitas as being marked. Yes, your units cost less and you can bring more of them, but it still feels as if something is missing.

It's kinda what influenced Sid Meyer to make civilizations have Golden Ages. The initial idea was to have Golden Ages, normal ages and then ages of decline, but testing showed that people didn't want their civilizations going through a slump.

I've had a few ideas of how to go about this. One idea has been to make marks mandatory things that you just pick, like Chapter Tactics. No cost issues or anything (the cost of the mark has already been built into the unit), just forge the narrative. Of course, Chaos Undivided cannot be a mark, but here I say we could just make good use of semantics and call it Faith Undivided.

 Rasclomalum wrote:
I think the problem for me is that going unaligned/unmarked doesn't carry quite the same gravitas as being marked. Yes, your units cost less and you can bring more of them, but it still feels as if something is missing.

It's kinda what influenced Sid Meyer to make civilizations have Golden Ages. The initial idea was to have Golden Ages, normal ages and then ages of decline, but testing showed that people didn't want their civilizations going through a slump.

I've had a few ideas of how to go about this. One idea has been to make marks mandatory things that you just pick, like Chapter Tactics. No cost issues or anything (the cost of the mark has already been built into the unit), just forge the narrative. Of course, Chaos Undivided cannot be a mark, but here I say we could just make good use of semantics and call it Faith Undivided.

I don't quite get the need to get rid of an undivided option?

I think it makes perfect sense to have the option of building an army like word bearers that venerate all of the gods in different ways at different times, or who are simply renegades with no godly alliance. It allows for more customization and army narrative options.

The chaos codex has scores of things that need to be fixed/added, but this wasn't in my top 100.

Malal / "Sons of Malice" is the answer.

Malal is the 5th Chaos God, and hates the other 4 equally. He has a very long history in WFB crossing into 40k, and I would love to see him returned to prominence.

 CT GAMER wrote:
[
I don't quite get the need to get rid of an undivided option?

Sorry, I may have been unclear. I guess what I'm saying is that I think that for narrative purposes, marks and faith undivided options should work like chapter tactics instead of upgrades with a points cost.

I mean... some of this may be subject to change what with the new Codex Space Marines coming up, but currently every Imperial Fist has Bolter Drill and is better trained than his peers with ye olde boltgun. Every Iron Hands marine has Feel no Pain etc. This, to me, is pretty good design. While it makes you want to base your army around your CT benefits, it's still not as penalizing as giving Havocs the Mark of Khorne, say. Even if Khorne is mainly about close combat slaughter you may still want some autocannon support in your World Eaters warband, and even though it makes rational sense leaving them unmarked what with the minimal benefit they get from purchasing MoK - why on Terra can't it be otherwise?

Nah, optimal way of doing it, in my humble view, is five "mark" options, all providing bonuses you just pick. Try to make them more generally applicable than they are now. Khorne and Slaanesh should have some benefit in shooting, Tzeentch should be useful for things without a natural invulnerable save, Nurgle shouldn't be the end-all be-all. Faith Undivided should have unique benefits the monolaters don't get.

Why would Khorne have a shooting benefit?

Well, indirectly at least counter-attack sorta benefits shooting within rapid fire range.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Why would Khorne have a shooting benefit?

Khorne covers all aspects of battle. Khornate havocs even have specific names, "Teeth of Khorne."

I still prefer Rage and Counterattack to go with Axes of Knorne.

Why can't the Mark of Khorne cater to both the axe-swinging maniacs and the autocannon crazies?

Are there Bolters of Khorne? No, there are not.

There are Axes of Khorne, HtH Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters and Juggernauts. Ergo, Khorne is more of a fighty guy. And it's not like you can't include Devastators in a Khorne army, or that they don't help. It's just that they're not preferred.

Tzeentch is the shooty one, with Flamers and such.

What about skull cannons? Or the fact that khorne daemons have a decent bs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And loads of daemon engines bristling with guns?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

And it's not like you can't include Devastators in a Khorne army, or that they don't help. It's just that they're not preferred.

Okay, but can you see how a World Eaters player would rather not mark his Havocs since they'd then be paying precious points for something that will not benefit them at all? The rules of the game get in the way of the narrative this player is trying to forge. Someone might want to run the Teeth of Khorne Kain mentioned in their warband. What they get then is overpriced Havocs.

Contrast this to a White Scars player running Centurions. They will not benefit from their Chapter Tactics, but the wasted opportunity aside, it's not like it will cost them anything since Chapter Tactics are free.

 Rasclomalum wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

And it's not like you can't include Devastators in a Khorne army, or that they don't help. It's just that they're not preferred.

Okay, but can you see how a World Eaters player would rather not mark his Havocs since they'd then be paying precious points for something that will not benefit them at all? The rules of the game get in the way of the narrative this player is trying to forge. Someone might want to run the Teeth of Khorne Kain mentioned in their warband. What they get then is overpriced Havocs.

Contrast this to a White Scars player running Centurions. They will not benefit from their Chapter Tactics, but the wasted opportunity aside, it's not like it will cost them anything since Chapter Tactics are free.

Or they can just not pay for them to have the MoK paint them in their Khorne Colors with their Khorne Emblems and call it good.

I mean its not ideal, but for now thats what they have. Or they can take something that isnt a static group of Marines and use a Tank instead.

If thematic, then you simply pay the points because that's what the army is and does.

Khorne gains fairly-priced Havocs that provide fire support and can hold their own if charged by a scout unit.

And FWIW, Black Templars have have the Mark of Khorne built into their basic cost.

All C:SM detachments have "marks" built into their basic cost. So even if you run models that are non-traditional, Raven Guard terminators say, you don't really waste anything. Those terminators could be made to work together with the scouting, hammer-of-wrathing jump infantry of their chapter.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Rasclomalum wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

And it's not like you can't include Devastators in a Khorne army, or that they don't help. It's just that they're not preferred.

Okay, but can you see how a World Eaters player would rather not mark his Havocs since they'd then be paying precious points for something that will not benefit them at all? The rules of the game get in the way of the narrative this player is trying to forge. Someone might want to run the Teeth of Khorne Kain mentioned in their warband. What they get then is overpriced Havocs.

Contrast this to a White Scars player running Centurions. They will not benefit from their Chapter Tactics, but the wasted opportunity aside, it's not like it will cost them anything since Chapter Tactics are free.

Or they can just not pay for them to have the MoK paint them in their Khorne Colors with their Khorne Emblems and call it good.

I mean its not ideal, but for now thats what they have. Or they can take something that isnt a static group of Marines and use a Tank instead.

This is how it worked in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness where the 'Teeth of Khorne' thing comes from: Assault squads were drawn from the 'Company of the Chosen' and had Frenzy, Assault & Tactical squads? Nada.

Go down the not all world eaters became berzerkers, not all berzerkers were world eaters route. None berzerk world eaters using two handed guns fighting alongside their mental brothers doesn't stretch the fluff too far at all.

JamesY, that's exactly how I look at it. Could Khorne not be served with a bolter? I mean, consider how certain individuals have used Exterminatus as a blood sacrifice to Khorne and the Teeth of Khorne make all the sense in the world.

After all, the chief force driving Chaos is emotion and intent. A Helbrute in a fire frenzy would probably make Khârn himself bristle with pride*.


*No doubt expressed through lopping off a few more heads with Gorechild and exceeding the limit of his helmet's inbuilt kill counter.

Definitely, as I said previously, look at khorne daemons. Bloodletters are bs5 and use cannons. Bloodthirster is bs10. Khorne loves daemon engines covered in guns. Khorne has no issue with ballistic weapons, only magic trickery that allows weaker foes to triumph. Khorne is all about a good, honourable fight as much as he's about the blood and skulls that come from them.

I think though for undivided, you need to accept that if there is no god to provide a benefit, there are no benefits to be had. Give everyone votlw as an upgrade and go from there.

 Rasclomalum wrote:
What it most definitely does, however, is cause problems for the Word Bearers, who in established fluff are Chaos Undivided to the core and call heresy on those who engage in monolatry.

This has already been retconned in the last codex. Now Word Bearers each dedicate themselves to a single god. So while the legion as a whole doesn't worship a single god, each individual legionary does.

Which is begging for trouble. When half your Coterie worships Tzeentch and the other half Nurgle, you're a Coryphaus with your work cut out for you.

So what exactly will become of Lorgar and Perturabo?

 tweber92 wrote:
So what exactly will become of Lorgar and Perturabo?

Maybe they'll retcon them to be god specific. Or retcon them to be dead?

They should kill them off, pointless characters. And whilst doing so, a few new csm special characters that are renegades rather than heresy rememberers would be a nice change.

Nah, the Daemon Primarchs need to stick around, they just need to be shown taking a more active role in the post-Heresy.

Personally, I think Marks of the individual gods should be a specific benefits-package that relates to the influence of that god. Some benefits might not be all that positive, of course, but such is the fickle nature of Chaos.

The Mark of Khorne, for example, may grant, say, Counter-Attack and a 6+ Deny the Witch (Khorne hates psykers), but it also requires a unit bearing it to, say, test LD or charge any enemy unit that comes within 10", call it "Thirst for Blood" or something.

The Mark of Chaos Undivided should, perhaps, be more situational... maybe it allows rerolls of 1 with Shooting or CC attacks (as Chaos guides fate), but it also requires a LD test if the unit takes 50%+ casualties as the Warp provides all sorts of conflicting instructions, drives and visions. Failure means the affected unit cannot Move, Shoot or target Psychic Abilities that turn while they get their heads out of the Warp and back into where they are.