Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So the Black Templar tactic that reads "if a unit suffers one or more casualties in the shooting phase, or as a result of overwatch, then that unit gains rage and counterattack special rules until the end of the turn"

So lets say you are Black Templar and it's turn 1 and you go first. You do your marine drop pod list and line everyone up firing away at the tau gunline. bottom of turn 1 they light up your squads and cause casualties to each unit in the shooting phase. Boom your chapter tactics kick in, the initiates get Rage and Counter-Attack until the end of the turn. But wait a minute, what's this? That was the bottom of turn 1, so when you go again, it is now turn 2, as per RAW wouldn't you lose Rage and Counter-Attack? Doesn't this seem like a silly wording that would only benefit the BT if they go 2nd at the beginning of the game. Shouldnt it say until the end of the the following turn?

Unless otherwise stated, Turn refers to Player turn, not Game Turn. So even if the Templars went second, by the time they can charge in, they've already lost the bonus.

 Icculus wrote:
So the Black Templar tactic that reads "if a unit suffers one or more casualties in the shooting phase, or as a result of overwatch, then that unit gains rage and counterattack special rules until the end of the turn"

So lets say you are Black Templar and it's turn 1 and you go first. You do your marine drop pod list and line everyone up firing away at the tau gunline. bottom of turn 1 they light up your squads and cause casualties to each unit in the shooting phase. Boom your chapter tactics kick in, the initiates get Rage and Counter-Attack until the end of the turn. But wait a minute, what's this? That was the bottom of turn 1, so when you go again, it is now turn 2, as per RAW wouldn't you lose Rage and Counter-Attack? Doesn't this seem like a silly wording that would only benefit the BT if they go 2nd at the beginning of the game.

Not really. If you get shot up, take a casualty, and then they charged you, you'd benefit from Counter-Attack.
On turn 2, when you go to charge, you take a casualty from overwatch and gain Rage because of it.

I know you get both, but only one is ever really useful since counter attack is for getting charged and rage is for charging.

Yeah, that seems almost tailor-made to only help you against Overwatch and against being shot & charged. Getting shot in one turn, then charging in another, doesn't seem to do diddly.

With that wording, yes. Going 2nd is more beneficial to a Black Templar player. It does say that you also get rage and counterattack if you take a casualty while you get overwatched. So it's not useless if you go first. Just only half as useful.

I think this is a RAW vs RAI issue. All they need to do is change the rule wording from "until the end of the turn" to "until the end of their turn". That would fix the issue me-thinks.

well if turn refers to player turn, then the only way to benefit from Rage is to shoot yourself in your own shooting phase.

And oddly enough in the very first game I played using the new rules I did this. I shot a tank, it exploded and killed a nearby marine. Since per RAW, i suffered a casualty during the shooting phase, the nearby squad gained Rage.

So I really hope that isnt the only way to benefit from Rage.

If they over watch and you take a casualty you get rage. So not the only way after all...

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
With that wording, yes. Going 2nd is more beneficial to a Black Templar player. It does say that you also get rage and counterattack if you take a casualty while you get overwatched. So it's not useless if you go first. Just only half as useful.

I think this is a RAW vs RAI issue. All they need to do is change the rule wording from "until the end of the turn" to "until the end of their turn". That would fix the issue me-thinks.

Its not an RAI issue at all. The rules are black and white about this (pun intended) and Happyjew nailed it right away.

 Happyjew wrote:
Unless otherwise stated, Turn refers to Player turn, not Game Turn. So even if the Templars went second, by the time they can charge in, they've already lost the bonus.

If a BT unit suffers a casualty in your own shooting phase (just off the top of my head, gets hot) the bonus will be lost at the end of your own turn.
If a BT unit suffers a casualty during your own assault phase as a result of overwatch the bonus will be lost at the end of your own turn.
If a BT unit suffers a casualty in your opponent's shooting phase the bonus will be lost at the end of your opponent's turn.
If a BT unit suffers a casualty during your opponent's assault phase during as a result of overwatch (same kinda things as your own shooting phase) the bonus will be lost at the end of your opponent's turn.

Well this chapter tactic is now not as cool as I thought it was, i thought it would last for at least the following turn after you got shot.

So you get counter attack if you get shot and charged,
and you get Rage if you get over watched, or if you blow up a vehicle(in the shooting phase) and kill one of your own guys.

got it, it's good to this stuff squared away.

Honestly I think the chapter tactic works perfectly as intended. Anyways, if they shoot you and don't assault you, they probably won't beat you in CC.

Also helps if you get intercepted and then charge.

I see this as a rule for helping out BT for combat:
Get shot for overwatch while assaulting: bonus!
Got shot before being assaulted, you shouldn't have done that.

 Talizvar wrote:
I see this as a rule for helping out BT for combat:
Get shot for overwatch while assaulting: bonus!
Got shot before being assaulted, you shouldn't have done that.

That does make more sense. Since the example given was Tau, I didn't think about the BT player getting charged after a shooting phase. My bad, Then I believe the rule is correct as written.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also helps if you get intercepted and then charge.

Except "Interceptor" is at the end of the Movement phase. So the chapter tactic won't kick in unless you get wounded from overwatch.

Good point, thought it was shooting damage not shooting phase...

Does it state that 'Turn' means 'Player Turn'?

I took the rules at face value. If you go first, and lose a model due to overwatch, you have rage and counter-attack until the end of the game turn. Meaning that when you successfully charge in you go in with +2 attacks per model. Then, as long as the assault ended somehow, in the bottom of turn 1, if your opponent charges the unit that has rage and counter-attack, you get +1 attack.

Now, if you go in the bottom of turns. Your opponent goes first and shoots a unit and you lose a model. You have rage and counter-attack. Meaning if your opponent charges you, that unit has +1 attack. Then, if you win combat or the assault is ended in some way before the bottom of turn 1, you can assault with that unit gaining +2 attacks.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but until I see a sentence that says Turn = Player Turn that's how I'm interpreting it. Since a game of 40k is 5-7 Turns, not 10-14.

rabidrecoil wrote:
Does it state that 'Turn' means 'Player Turn'?

Page 17 of my rulebook says that "Whenever a rule refers to a 'turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I see this as a rule for helping out BT for combat:
Get shot for overwatch while assaulting: bonus!
Got shot before being assaulted, you shouldn't have done that.

That does make more sense. Since the example given was Tau, I didn't think about the BT player getting charged after a shooting phase. My bad, Then I believe the rule is correct as written.

One of my rare lucid moments, thanks!
I had played BT since the initial Armageddon codex so being a shooty assault army has been my focus.
Drop pods since the beginning seemed to be their thing and huge crusader squads jumping out of a LRC with an emperor's champion was the "rage".
I always liked the bikes too as a fast way to get melee with some shooting, still fits the bill, no mamby pamby hit and run like the scars.

Fluff aside, I am a little upset the formations do not include crusader squads along with tactical, missed opportunity.
I will make more extensive use of "scouts" though, it was a nice buff to see along with their combat shotguns...