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Initially though of it as a joke... not laughing anymore.

Demi-company
Captain
3x5 tactical marines, all mounted in drop pods
5 assault marines (drop pod)
5 devastators (drop pod)
Stalker
Hunter
3x Conclaves (12 level 2 librarians, in 3 conclaves of 4)

Librarian conclaves each join a 5 man squad and drop pod in on turn 1.
The least useful librarian from each squad is selected as the focus of each of the three conclaves.
With 24 +D6 dice, I'd single die a cursed earth or two, followed by a 2-3 Summonings/incursions (4 dice each) a trio of Sacrifice (1 die) and then a trio of Possessions (4 dice each).
Should end up with 20-30 daemons, a few heralds and 3 greater daemons, turn 1, on the weak flank between the librarians and the enemy.
Turn 2, each conclave still has 3 librarians in it (minus kills from enemy action) and they can repeat the process, bringing in another batch.
The combination of harnessing on a 2+ along with drop pods means you get daemons far easier, and where you want them.

Pick a chapter with questionable gene-seed, and it's fully too.

-Matt

Please tell me this doesn't work....:-(

Loyalists should adhere to Nikaea and leave the Summoning to the true followers of the Chaos Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After some initial consideration, Infiltrating D3 squads of Thousand Sons roughly 18" (in LOS) to each of your Conclaves will be interesting.

 Aurelian wrote:
Loyalists should adhere to Nikaea and leave the Summoning to the true followers of the Chaos Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After some initial consideration, Infiltrating D3 squads of Thousand Sons roughly 18" (in LOS) to each of your Conclaves will be interesting.

The Librarians are independent characters.
The characters join the units in drop pods.

It's a null deployment daemon bomb. Infiltrate where you like, I could just as easily land on the other side of the table and start the summoning if anything posed a serious risk to the librarians.

Well, it's not working.
We've tried it with Sorcerers.
They've getting fried their brains too early in the game.

The conclave is so much better than sorcerors. Harness on a 2+ and access to more spells. Yes will die from perils eventually,but ideally you turn into a GD before then.

Actually considering allying my heresy thousand sons to my chaos to try this out.

Does it say they have access to malefic daemonology? I've heard that it only allows sanctic now.

So much lel. Kinda wanna try this now. I tried making a few daemons primary lists that actually brought something hard hitting from the daemons and then adding on a conclave and some spehss mehreens but i couldnt really find any combos i liked at a glance

 Zavvy wrote:
Does it say they have access to malefic daemonology? I've heard that it only allows sanctic now.

The codex says Daemonology.
The digital says Daemonology.
If you click on daemonology in the digital, it only loads up sanctic.
Some people are saying that it means they only get sanctic.
Some people are saying that is means the link is incorrect.
GW so far is saying nothing.

From a fluff standpoint, I hope they get both, as marines chapters to fall to damnation.

What in the list actually kills stuff or the plan to create a wall of Daemons and use the ObSec demi to grab points? How do you deal with Imp/Wraith Knights? Definitely sounds like a fun fluffy Dark Angel list though not using their dex. Also not sure why you're using a Gladius rather than a CAD?

Also the AA formation is illegal you need 2 stalkers.

don't have the SM codex, but isn't the Librarian conclave a unit in itself or is it just a group of 4 ICs that can be attached anywhere they want? i assumed it was similar to a Seer Council but may be wrong.

Just ICs that don't even have to join the same unit. But gain benefits from being near each other.

How close together are we talking? If in different units can they cast the same spell twice in one turn?

Away from dex I think 12" but they all give all their powers to one guy anyway.

Ok yeah,12" range and will only be able to cast one of each spell. So you are putting 3-5 librarians into casting one summoning, then odds are good but not guaranteed that you can cast one of the other conjurations, and possession kills you lib. Need 3 libs alive to get the 2+.

I,m thinking if 4 in a pod would work. Land, cast two summonings and a possession..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mix in tigurius to give good odds of invisibility.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Initially though of it as a joke... not laughing anymore.

Demi-company
Captain
3x5 tactical marines, all mounted in drop pods
5 assault marines (drop pod)
5 devastators (drop pod)
Stalker
Hunter
3x Conclaves (12 level 2 librarians, in 3 conclaves of 4)

Librarian conclaves each join a 5 man squad and drop pod in on turn 1.
The least useful librarian from each squad is selected as the focus of each of the three conclaves.
With 24 +D6 dice, I'd single die a cursed earth or two, followed by a 2-3 Summonings/incursions (4 dice each) a trio of Sacrifice (1 die) and then a trio of Possessions (4 dice each).
Should end up with 20-30 daemons, a few heralds and 3 greater daemons, turn 1, on the weak flank between the librarians and the enemy.
Turn 2, each conclave still has 3 librarians in it (minus kills from enemy action) and they can repeat the process, bringing in another batch.
The combination of harnessing on a 2+ along with drop pods means you get daemons far easier, and where you want them.

Pick a chapter with questionable gene-seed, and it's fully too.

-Matt

Very suboptimal loadout for various reasons...

1. Demi Company?? You dont want/need Captain, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad and neither of those tanks... what you DO want/need is warp charges/dice, Tactical Squads and cheap, empty Drop Pods to get your Tacticals down in turn 1. Youd also want something which can seriously threaten/push the enemy turn 1 so he doesnt get to much of and advance with the first "free" round of summoning. CAD > DC for this list.
2. ML2 on the Libs? Mostly wasted... youd want quantity, not quality to counter HP loss from perils and to lose less points when you cast possession. 4x ML1 Conclave > 3x ML2 Conclave
3. Pick "any" chapter? Uhm, no, pick the one which is obviously best with a 5+ FnP on tacticals and a ML3 Psyker which is free to pick spells


Better list would look this:

CAD [Chapter Tacticas Red Scorpions]:
- Sevrin Loth
- 5 Tacticals, Melter, Narthecium, Drop Pod
- 5 Tacticals, Melter, Narthecium, Drop Pod
- 5 Tacticals, Melter, Narthecium, Drop Pod
- 5 Tacticals, Melter, Narthecium, Drop Pod
- Drop Pod
- Drop Pod
- Drop Pod
- 3 DevCents, Grav&Amp, Hurricane Bolter

Formation Librarian Conclave (x4):
- 4 ML1 Psykers

Inquisitonal Detachment:
- Inquisitor with 3 Servo Skulls
- Henchmen, 2 Warriors, 1 Psyker
- Henchmen, 2 Warriors, 1 Psyker
- Henchmen, 2 Warriors, 1 Psyker


Loth joins the Cents, giving them Invisibility and all go into on of those Pods
Conclaves join the TTs (Narthecium gives them FnP which DOES work vs wounds from perils, reducing their overall suffered wounds by 33%) and cast whatever conjuration is available to them
Inquisitor is just there for 3 Servo Skulls, shutting down enemy Scouts/Infiltrators and making your own Deep Strikes more accurate, Henchmen offer cheap Warp Charges (18pts per Warp Charge)
This list generetes 20+W6 Warp Charges, giving you 16 dice for all Conclaves to each cast a conjuration with 4 dice on 2+, 4 dice to cast Invisibility and W6 wo cast whatevery stuff Loth picked on top

He needs the demi company to get access to the multiple libby formations, it is a solid list, just make sure you dont only roll on santic, you will need to be able to kill models and contrary to popular belief summoned daemons don't kill that much.

I actually prefer the libby formation inside of a cent star with tiggy, gives you more spot removal and the ability to summon where you need them to help with board control.

Surely there's nothing stopping you taking multiple libbies anyway?

That Loth list is... Nasty. Tempted to steal it..

Another entry to the old "11 Spiritseers + 20 Warlocks = FREE DAEMONS?!?!" mindset, which can be explained thusly:

Phase 1: Summon Daemons
Phase 2: ???????????
Phase 3: Win Games

Unfortunately, it never actually works out that way, because people always forget a rather important fact: SUMMONED DAEMONS CANNOT BE THE OFFENSIVE BACKBONE OF AN ARMY

Woops, sorry--I've been playing Daemons a long time and shouting that phrase at people has kinda become a twitch reflex in response to hypothetical summoning armies and/or people blatantly overstating the relevance of summoning to Daemon armies in general.

So, you've built an alpha strike list that doesn't actually alpha strike (though it does, apparently by design, First Blood itself--that's surely a bonus), instead trading that for ~30-40 standard Lesser Daemons that are completely unsupported, a handful of Heralds wondering what they're doing anywhere near the enemy army, and a couple of Greater Daemons (AKA the Librarians Formerly Known as First Blood). These things are, presumably, all up in the enemy's business looking menacing.

Any remotely competent assault list (Wraiths, BikeWolf, other Daemons, etc) proceeds to multi-charge literally all of it that is within reach, yell "Thanks, Daemonic Instability!" and watch it all crumble. You then proceed to try again next turn with less Warp Charge than you started with and it's sorta downhill from there.

On the off chance that you're fighting something that can't fight back against standard Lesser Daemons and is too slow to get away (so Tau, I guess?), you'll soon get to experience two really amazing phenomenon:

1. Standard, unsupported Daemons die really easily to small arms fire, the likes of which you are in range of a metric ton of
2. Standard, unsupported Daemons actually aren't all that incredible in combat against virtually anything you'd see in a competitive list

I mean, let's say you get a whole squad of your newly summoned Daemonettes into something, like...standard everyday Marines. For whatever reason, none of these Daemonettes died during the uncontested phase of point-blank shooting. None of them died to Overwatch. The Marines were also kind enough to step out of terrain so your glaring lack of Grenades doesn't hurt you. You didn't multi-charge, because I don't know. We're talking about 10 Daemonettes going to town on some Space Marines at Initiative 5 with all of their attacks wooooo--

You proceed to kill 4 Marines. Congratulations.

But hey, at least they weren't Decurion Necron Warriors--that would have been really embarrassing (you'll kill about 2 and are mathematically likely to tie combat).

SUMMONED DAEMONS CANNOT BE THE OFFENSIVE BACKBONE OF AN ARMY

I say these things as the sort of person who would be perfectly equipped to run the sort of army you're describing, were it actually viable. At Adepticon, my "army" fit on a 6"x12" plastic tray. Yet I was lugging around two Battlefoam bags and a large cardboard box full of models--40 of each Lesser, one of each Greater (and an extra LoC!), minimum 2 Summons worth of everything else. As someone who plays an army that can summon and has the means to do so, here's what Summoned Daemons actually can do:

1. Be chaff. Screens, tarpits, speed bumps. Block movement or set up counter assaults (for the things in your army that actually do kill things). Basically, be annoying.
2. Create Warp Charge. Which is to say, create ML2 Tzeentch Heralds that cower in the background--I'm personally against summoning Horrors for Warp Charge (they never make back what they cost).
3. Hold objectives. This is the obvious one, and probably represents the overwhelming majority of summoning's impact on a competitive game. Screamers, Seekers, Disc Heralds. They go and stand next to the shiny thing and you win the game (while the things in your army that actually do kill things are busy killing things, allowing them this luxury).
4. In somewhat rare, incredibly specific circumstances, kill things.

#1 and #4 are why you see Daemon players with plastic tubs full of models (or two Battlefoams and a cardboard box). Because sometimes--in some weird specific matchup or bizarre mission format--we might need them. But in your average game, you're more likely looking at specific, tailored counter-summons. This is 3 Flamers dropping in to remove a unit of Kroot in cover on an objective. A Khorne Herald buying an Axe to be thrown at a Tervigon. Bloodcrushers thinning out Marine-spam. They are certainly not predictable circumstances, but capitalizing on them when they present themselves is a huge part of playing the army well, and if you don't have the models you're missing the opportunity.

Basically, don't assume the plastic tub full of models was ever used. It probably wasn't.

Between rounds 7 and 8 at Adepticon, Nick and I had a conversation about how much we'd actually been summoning over the prior 6 games (leaving out one mission that basically said "SUMMON 2 WIN" in giant block letters). I believe he said he'd summoned about ten units across all 6 games combined. I was at seven.

As usual with these things (re:11 Spiritseers), this list was not conceived with any thought toward how to best win a game. This list was conceived solely with a goal of how to best summon Daemons. The mistake people make is thinking that the former will somehow naturally lead into the latter.

(Hint: It doesn't.)

Always worth remembering:-) a conclave is really only going to summon 1-2 units a turn anyway. But it can also throw out some other spells and is relatively cheap, and can be made quite durable.

There a definitely an art needed to get the most out of it. Just summon spam isn't going to work.

Very well said DJ3!

I've been doing the summoning as utility thing for a while now, and while it is quite a great tool, it does take finesse to use. I'd say approximately 90% of my summons have been units of screamers especially in Maelstrom scenarios. That 24" turbo off the bat is just too good for grabbing objectives. Its also great for movement blocking the likes of knights. Practically the only time ive used Possession is if something fast has made its way into my backfield and whittled down some horrors who just HAPPENED have rolled possession and presto bingo youve got a KoS to guard the other stuff back there.

Also out of curiosity, what was the list you brought to Adepticon?


EDIT- sorry was referring to DJ3's post.

 krootman. wrote:
He needs the demi company to get access to the multiple libby formations

Quote the rule saying so please

Captyn_Bob wrote:
That Loth list is... Nasty. Tempted to steal it..

If you do so please report back how it worked out for you

Because I am more or less with DJ3 on that matter... it looks "strong on paper", but doesnt really work out on the battlefield because of the several flaws/shortcommings he already mentioned and another quite big one he did not mention: summoned Daemons lack ObSec

highwind01 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
He needs the demi company to get access to the multiple libby formations

Quote the rule saying so please

He's referring to most major tournaments' construction rules.

Many tournaments don't allow duplicate formations at all (Adepticon), so a list like this would be flat-out illegal.

Most of the ones that do allow duplicate formations, only do so if they're a legal part of a Decurion-style formation.

So at most tournaments, you wouldn't have to take a Demi-company to take one Librarius formation. But to take four? You'd have to have them shoved into a Gladius, which means taking the Demi-company.

DJ3 wrote:

highwind01 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
He needs the demi company to get access to the multiple libby formations

Quote the rule saying so please

He's referring to most major tournaments' construction rules.

Many tournaments don't allow duplicate formations at all (Adepticon), so a list like this would be flat-out illegal.

Most of the ones that do allow duplicate formations, only do so if they're a legal part of a Decurion-style formation.

So at most tournaments, you wouldn't have to take a Demi-company to take one Librarius formation. But to take four? You'd have to have them shoved into a Gladius, which means taking the Demi-company.

Yup itc says you can only take one formation, and nova says you can only take more then one if it's stuffed in the gladius formation. I can't speak for any smaller events or your local store, but those 2 formats pretty much cover the major competitive scene.

DJ3 wrote:
Another entry to the old "11 Spiritseers + 20 Warlocks = FREE DAEMONS?!?!" mindset, which can be explained thusly:

Phase 1: Summon Daemons
Phase 2: ???????????
Phase 3: Win Games

Unfortunately, it never actually works out that way, because people always forget a rather important fact: SUMMONED DAEMONS CANNOT BE THE OFFENSIVE BACKBONE OF AN ARMY

Woops, sorry--I've been playing Daemons a long time and shouting that phrase at people has kinda become a twitch reflex in response to hypothetical summoning armies and/or people blatantly overstating the relevance of summoning to Daemon armies in general.

So, you've built an alpha strike list that doesn't actually alpha strike (though it does, apparently by design, First Blood itself--that's surely a bonus), instead trading that for ~30-40 standard Lesser Daemons that are completely unsupported, a handful of Heralds wondering what they're doing anywhere near the enemy army, and a couple of Greater Daemons (AKA the Librarians Formerly Known as First Blood). These things are, presumably, all up in the enemy's business looking menacing.

Any remotely competent assault list (Wraiths, BikeWolf, other Daemons, etc) proceeds to multi-charge literally all of it that is within reach, yell "Thanks, Daemonic Instability!" and watch it all crumble. You then proceed to try again next turn with less Warp Charge than you started with and it's sorta downhill from there.

On the off chance that you're fighting something that can't fight back against standard Lesser Daemons and is too slow to get away (so Tau, I guess?), you'll soon get to experience two really amazing phenomenon:

1. Standard, unsupported Daemons die really easily to small arms fire, the likes of which you are in range of a metric ton of
2. Standard, unsupported Daemons actually aren't all that incredible in combat against virtually anything you'd see in a competitive list

I mean, let's say you get a whole squad of your newly summoned Daemonettes into something, like...standard everyday Marines. For whatever reason, none of these Daemonettes died during the uncontested phase of point-blank shooting. None of them died to Overwatch. The Marines were also kind enough to step out of terrain so your glaring lack of Grenades doesn't hurt you. You didn't multi-charge, because I don't know. We're talking about 10 Daemonettes going to town on some Space Marines at Initiative 5 with all of their attacks wooooo--

You proceed to kill 4 Marines. Congratulations.

But hey, at least they weren't Decurion Necron Warriors--that would have been really embarrassing (you'll kill about 2 and are mathematically likely to tie combat).

SUMMONED DAEMONS CANNOT BE THE OFFENSIVE BACKBONE OF AN ARMY

I say these things as the sort of person who would be perfectly equipped to run the sort of army you're describing, were it actually viable. At Adepticon, my "army" fit on a 6"x12" plastic tray. Yet I was lugging around two Battlefoam bags and a large cardboard box full of models--40 of each Lesser, one of each Greater (and an extra LoC!), minimum 2 Summons worth of everything else. As someone who plays an army that can summon and has the means to do so, here's what Summoned Daemons actually can do:

1. Be chaff. Screens, tarpits, speed bumps. Block movement or set up counter assaults (for the things in your army that actually do kill things). Basically, be annoying.
2. Create Warp Charge. Which is to say, create ML2 Tzeentch Heralds that cower in the background--I'm personally against summoning Horrors for Warp Charge (they never make back what they cost).
3. Hold objectives. This is the obvious one, and probably represents the overwhelming majority of summoning's impact on a competitive game. Screamers, Seekers, Disc Heralds. They go and stand next to the shiny thing and you win the game (while the things in your army that actually do kill things are busy killing things, allowing them this luxury).
4. In somewhat rare, incredibly specific circumstances, kill things.

#1 and #4 are why you see Daemon players with plastic tubs full of models (or two Battlefoams and a cardboard box). Because sometimes--in some weird specific matchup or bizarre mission format--we might need them. But in your average game, you're more likely looking at specific, tailored counter-summons. This is 3 Flamers dropping in to remove a unit of Kroot in cover on an objective. A Khorne Herald buying an Axe to be thrown at a Tervigon. Bloodcrushers thinning out Marine-spam. They are certainly not predictable circumstances, but capitalizing on them when they present themselves is a huge part of playing the army well, and if you don't have the models you're missing the opportunity.

Basically, don't assume the plastic tub full of models was ever used. It probably wasn't.

Between rounds 7 and 8 at Adepticon, Nick and I had a conversation about how much we'd actually been summoning over the prior 6 games (leaving out one mission that basically said "SUMMON 2 WIN" in giant block letters). I believe he said he'd summoned about ten units across all 6 games combined. I was at seven.

As usual with these things (re:11 Spiritseers), this list was not conceived with any thought toward how to best win a game. This list was conceived solely with a goal of how to best summon Daemons. The mistake people make is thinking that the former will somehow naturally lead into the latter.

(Hint: It doesn't.)

This is pretty spot on. Summing is a sweet toolbox to help you out of a specific jam, but it won't win games on its own.