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So the Eldar Formation "Aspect Host" confers the possibility of adding 1 bs to Aspect Warriors like Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons. I personally was tantalized by bs 5 Fire Dragons, so I added them to my list. But, when I decided to grab them a Transport, I ran into a conundrum. The rules for Rites of Battle (which confers this bs buff) states"... All units in this formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic."

So, if I take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport for some Aspect in this Formation, does it count as a unit in the formation? Furthermore, does it confer the bonuses?

Yes, the serpents will gain the benefit

Wait... Can this also confer the WS bonus? I mean, last time I checked, vehicles are WS 1 for purposes of being punched. Could this make tanks less susceptible to being grenadeded to death?

 Will1541 wrote:
Wait... Can this also confer the WS bonus? I mean, last time I checked, vehicles are WS 1 for purposes of being punched. Could this make tanks less susceptible to being grenadeded to death?

Afraid not.

Vehicles do not have a weapon skill to improve. It "counts as" ws1

It would not confer the bs bonus. The transports are considered the same slot as the units purchased, so objective secured is conferred. It however is not considered the same UNIT. If you read the formation, it specifies what UNITS are actually part of the formation.

It follows the same logic as not gaining shrouded if it is a dedicated transport for a unit of pathfinders.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
It would not confer the bs bonus. The transports are considered the same slot as the units purchased, so objective secured is conferred. It however is not considered the same UNIT. If you read the formation, it specifies what UNITS are actually part of the formation.

It follows the same logic as not gaining shrouded if it is a dedicated transport for a unit of pathfinders.

So if a dedicated transport isn't apart of the formation, then what detachment are they in?

From 'Battle-forged Armies' in the Choosing Your Army section of the main rules:

A player using the Battle-forged method must organize all the units they want to use into Detachments.

So if a dedicated transport isn't a part of the same formation as its parent unit (remember a formation is just a special type of detachment), then what detachment is it in and why? According to the rules it must be in a detachment. The dedicated transports are units in the Aspect Host Formation as the formation does not prevent the listed units from taking dedicated transports.

Wave Serpents are indeed part of the Detahment, however, they are not one of the units listed as part of the Formation that gain the bonuses. Though most aspect warriors can take a Wave Serpent, they are not listed. You have to assume that RAI, the serpent cannot gain the Rites of Battle rule.

If you want to agrue RAW that ALL units in this formation blah, blah... Then you actually cannot take Wave Serpents at all, since EACH unit in this formation MUST include an Exarch. Wave Serpents cannot include an Exarch, therefore cannot be part of the formation.

Since the above is nonsense, the only reasonable outcome is that you get to take Serpents, but they do not gain BS5

 Galef wrote:
Wave Serpents are indeed part of the Detahment, however, they are not one of the units listed as part of the Formation that gain the bonuses. Though most aspect warriors can take a Wave Serpent, they are not listed. You have to assume that RAI, the serpent cannot gain the Rites of Battle rule.

If you want to agrue RAW that ALL units in this formation blah, blah... Then you actually cannot take Wave Serpents at all, since EACH unit in this formation MUST include an Exarch. Wave Serpents cannot include an Exarch, therefore cannot be part of the formation.

Since the above is nonsense, the only reasonable outcome is that you get to take Serpents, but they do not gain BS5

Except the actual rules don't support your conclusion.

 Galef wrote:
Wave Serpents are indeed part of the Detahment, however, they are not one of the units listed as part of the Formation that gain the bonuses. Though most aspect warriors can take a Wave Serpent, they are not listed. You have to assume that RAI, the serpent cannot gain the Rites of Battle rule.

If you want to agrue RAW that ALL units in this formation blah, blah... Then you actually cannot take Wave Serpents at all, since EACH unit in this formation MUST include an Exarch. Wave Serpents cannot include an Exarch, therefore cannot be part of the formation.

Since the above is nonsense, the only reasonable outcome is that you get to take Serpents, but they do not gain BS5

The rules state that all units in the formation gain the benefit. The Wave Serpent is a unit in the formation - even if it's not listed as a requirement of the formation. This is because those squads can take it as a dedicated transport, which becomes a unit in the detachment, and thus a unit in the formation, and thus benefits from the +1 BS.

As for the WS... though the RAW is that they don't benefit from it, I say screw that! WS 2 Wave Serpents laugh at your feeble attempts to attack them while Jain Zar is near! AHAHAHAHA!

EDIT: Missed your second sentence. The Wave Serpent doesn't have an option for an Exarch, which is an interesting point you bring up. That's pretty funny, and I think might actually point to RAI being that Wave Serpents don't get the bonus. Further investigation with the actual rules quotes sounds like a good idea.

Wording of each part, for reference:
Restriction - Each unit in this formation must include an Exarch.
Rites Of Battle - Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, choose either Weapon skill or Ballistic Skill. All units in this Formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic.

Bojazz wrote:
Wording of each part, for reference:
Restriction - Each unit in this formation must include an Exarch.
Rites Of Battle - Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, choose either Weapon skill or Ballistic Skill. All units in this Formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic.

Well, by the RAW it seems then that you can't take Wave Serpents, making the "can your Wave Serpents get +1 BS" question a moot point, since Serpents must then take an Exarch, which they can't. But that's patently absurd. Then again, Shrike can't join others during deployment either...

HIWPI - They can take Wave Serpents, and since they're in the formation when it gets the bonus, they get the bonus too.

a dedicated transport is an upgrade for a unit, it is not bought from a different slot. It absolutely will gain the +1 BS. The exarch point is not necessary as the parent unit will take the upgrade, along with the dedicated transport.

 bullyboy wrote:
a dedicated transport is an upgrade for a unit, it is not bought from a different slot. It absolutely will gain the +1 BS. The exarch point is not necessary as the parent unit will take the upgrade, along with the dedicated transport.

Before continuing to read this comment, know that from a HIWPI standpoint, I 100% percent agree with you.

Carrying on...

But "by the RAW", that isn't true. Each unit in the formation MUST take an Exarch, and the Wave Serpents can't. They'd be just as equally disallowed from being a part of the formation as an Aspect Warrior squad without an Exarch. The Aspect Warrior unit's Exarch upgrade does not give the Wave Serpent (a separate unit) an Exarch. This makes the +1BS a moot point. Yes it would gain +1BS if it were a part of the formation, but so would a squad of Space Marine Devastators - though neither can be a part of the formation, so who cares?

 Yarium wrote:
Well, by the RAW it seems then that you can't take Wave Serpents...

The RAW definitely does allow you to take Wave Serpents as the formation does not prohibit the unit from making use of the option to take a dedicated transport. There are a few formations out there which do not allow dedicated transports (e.g., the Ork Green Tide Formation), however the Aspect Host is not one of them.

 Yarium wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
a dedicated transport is an upgrade for a unit, it is not bought from a different slot. It absolutely will gain the +1 BS. The exarch point is not necessary as the parent unit will take the upgrade, along with the dedicated transport.

Before continuing to read this comment, know that from a HIWPI standpoint, I 100% percent agree with you.

Carrying on...

But "by the RAW", that isn't true. Each unit in the formation MUST take an Exarch, and the Wave Serpents can't. They'd be just as equally disallowed from being a part of the formation as an Aspect Warrior squad without an Exarch. The Aspect Warrior unit's Exarch upgrade does not give the Wave Serpent (a separate unit) an Exarch. This makes the +1BS a moot point. Yes it would gain +1BS if it were a part of the formation, but so would a squad of Space Marine Devastators - though neither can be a part of the formation, so who cares?

The Wave Serpent is a dedicated transport option for the Dire Avengers unit - it's not a separate choice that's being stuck in the formation willy nilly. As has been said, there are precedents for formations that specifically disallow the taking of dedicated transports, implying that the reverse is a perfectly normal option.

 Jambles wrote:
The Wave Serpent is a dedicated transport option for the Dire Avengers unit - it's not a separate choice that's being stuck in the formation willy nilly. As has been said, there are precedents for formations that specifically disallow the taking of dedicated transports, implying that the reverse is a perfectly normal option.

And normally that's perfectly peachy, but this is not a restriction - rather it is a requirement.

Okay, let's talk hypothetical...

Let's pretend that there was a formation for Space Marines that said "each unit in this formation must include a Grav Cannon", and the formation had the option of taking Space Marine Terminators (not required). But Space Marine Terminators don't have access to Grav Cannons! It would obviously be a mistake, but the RAW would be that you couldn't include the Terminators because they can't take a Grav Cannon.

This is functionally identical. You have an option of taking a unit - the Wave Serpent. Once purchased, it is a unit in the formation. But as a unit in the formation, it is required to purchase something it cannot purchase. It might be tempting to say "well, it just can't take it, so you take the Serpent and ignore that part", but that's functionally identical to "well, I don't have enough points for an Exarch and just can't take it, so I take the squad anyways and just ignore that part". RAW, we can't pick and choose here - either it's a requirement just as binding as the game's points limit, or it's not, and you don't actually have to take an Exarch if you can't.

Is the dedicated transport a unit? Is it in the formation? Then it benefits from the 'Rites of Battle' special rule. You're argument that only those units listed formation requirements has no merit as you've not provided any evidence that those are the only units in the formation that benefit from the formation's special rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is the dedicated transport a unit? Is it in the formation? Then it benefits from the 'Rites of Battle' special rule. You're argument that only those units listed formation requirements has no merit as you've not provided any evidence that those are the only units in the formation that benefit from the formation's special rules.

Oh, they sure would get the bonus... if they could be in the formation at all! The argument is not that they would be BS5 if they were in the formation - it's whether or not (by the silly silly RAW) they can even be in the formation at all!

And again, where is the restriction on transports?

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, where is the restriction on transports?

That they can't take an Exarch. Show me that they can take an Exarch in order to fulfill the requirement as per the formation restrictions, and I'll send you a Coke sir! (Seriously! I totally will! 100% Canadian Coca-Cola*!)

*100% Canadian Coca-Cola is Coca-Cola as bottled in Canada. No purchase necessary. Some restrictions apply. Entrant must be of legal drinking age in US and Canada. A skill-testing question must be answered for the offer to be valid.

 Yarium wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And again, where is the restriction on transports?

That they can't take an Exarch. Show me that they can take an Exarch in order to fulfill the requirement as per the formation restrictions, and I'll send you a Coke sir! (Seriously! I totally will! 100% Canadian Coca-Cola*!)

*100% Canadian Coca-Cola is Coca-Cola as bottled in Canada. No purchase necessary. Some restrictions apply. Entrant must be of legal drinking age in US and Canada. A skill-testing question must be answered for the offer to be valid.

Why does it need to take an exarch? The wave serpent is a purchased upgrade for the unit, same as the exarch is.

 Jambles wrote:
Why does it need to take an exarch? The wave serpent is a purchased upgrade for the unit, same as the exarch is.

Unlike the Exarch, who is a model and not a unit, the Wave Serpent is a unit. It has a unit profile and everything. And by the RAW, that means it needs to take an Exarch.

again, totally not what's intended - so obviously, hilariously "oh look, the RAW is busted again" that it's not even funny.

He is right guys. It's obviously not RAI as he previously said, but it is definite RAW.

Sorry, its not RAW. The RAW requires the listed units take an Exarch. Where does it say that you can't take a dedicated transport as an option for the listed units?

Pretty sure it says you need an exarch in every unit in the formation, and as the serpent is a unit in and of itself, dispite being a dedicated transport for the squad, it too would require an exarch to be legit, which cannot be done. I doubt even GW know for sure though.

And again, the RAW requires the listed units to have an Exarch. Where do the restrictions say that you can't take dedicated transports as an option for the units?

Might wanna reread page 224 of the eldar codex Ghaz.
Is a wave serpent a unit?
Is the wave serpent taken as a dedicated transport a part of this formation?
Does a wave serpent have the option to include an exarch?

Pretty sure I'd go with Galef on this one, although strictly you could argue that you can't even take a dedicated transport at all.

I think I'm with the masses on this one. RAW - you're not allowed to take Serpents in the formation. HIWPI - you can take them and they gain BS 5, though I would be perfectly happy to leave them at BS 4 if my opponent had a problem with it.

Well, I feel it is more how it was meant to be played that they can take wave serpents, but the serpents do not gain the bonus as they are not aspect warriors...but 40k...