Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I'm building a Wolfstar with a Librarius Conclave as a standalone formation. How does selecting a Chapter Tactic for the conclave work? I'd like to give them White Scars, obviously, to confer Hit and Run to the Wolfstar. As Space Wolves don't have Chapter Tactics, the consensus seems to be that this will work.

Is it as simple as saying, "My Librarius Conclave is a White Scars formation"?

Thanks!

 The Shrike wrote:
So, I'm building a Wolfstar with a Librarius Conclave as a standalone formation. How does selecting a Chapter Tactic for the conclave work? I'd like to give them White Scars, obviously, to confer Hit and Run to the Wolfstar. As Space Wolves don't have Chapter Tactics, the consensus seems to be that this will work.

Is it as simple as saying, "My Librarius Conclave is a White Scars formation"?

Thanks!

The Librarius Conclave is a Space Marines Faction Formation. If you are building an army list composed entirely of Space Wolves Detachments and Formations and you want to add a Librarius Conclave, feel free. I will be Space Marines Faction, will require that you select a Chapter for Chapter Tactics and will be Battle Brothers with all your Wolves.

That's what I thought. Absolutely baller.

Thank god GW sucks at writing rules.

 The Shrike wrote:
That's what I thought. Absolutely baller.

Thank god GW sucks at writing rules.

Why do they suck at writing rules? This is exactly how detachments and formations are supposed to work in 7th edition. The whole point is that you can mix and match detachments and formations from different armies.

Both of the below are legal and fully supported by the rules.

Army #1
Space Wolves Combined Arms Detachment
Space Marines (White Scars) Librarius Conclave Formation

Army #2
Tau Empire Firebase Support Cadre Formation
Space Marines Librarius Conclave Formation
Offico Assassinorum Detachment

I just think players like me who look to shoehorn every possible advantage, fluff be damned, are rewarded while players who try to "forge a narrative" end up with non-competitive armies.

They're not particularly skilled in game balance.

 The Shrike wrote:
I just think players like me who look to shoehorn every possible advantage, fluff be damned, are rewarded while players who try to "forge a narrative" end up with non-competitive armies.

They're not particularly skilled in game balance.

And this is something new?

As someone pointed out somewhere, though, this is fodder for the "One Book to Build Them All" argument.

 The Shrike wrote:
I just think players like me who look to shoehorn every possible advantage, fluff be damned, are rewarded while players who try to "forge a narrative" end up with non-competitive armies.

They're not particularly skilled in game balance.

This has always been the case. Fluffy lists are rarely as effective as min/maxed power lists.

 The Shrike wrote:
I just think players like me who look to shoehorn every possible advantage, fluff be damned, are rewarded while players who try to "forge a narrative" end up with non-competitive armies.

They're not particularly skilled in game balance.

There's a reason the rulebook explicitly states you have to discuss with your opponent prior to the game what kind of forces you want to play with. If that's the kind of game your opponent agrees to, then there's no issue at all.

GW is only providing you with many possible rules and many possible ways to use them.

There is no definitive way to play a game of 40k.

There's no "game balance" to be achieved at all.

 The Shrike wrote:
, to confer Hit and Run to the Wolfstar.

How does that work? The Wolves won't get the White Scar chapter tactics? I'm away from my book at the moment, but the librarians get the tactics. maybe if they join the wolf star the unit they join gets the benefit of the hit and run rule i.e. if at least one model in the unit... but it's still the Librarians who have it, and if they get munched your wolves lose it.

chapter tactics only work if all the models in the unit have the same chapter tactics, the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them

Space Wolves do not have Chapter Tactics to cancel.

 easysauce wrote:
... the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them.

Not quite. The wording is as follows:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactics.

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
... the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them.

Not quite. The wording is as follows:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactics.

right... the unit contains models from two different chapters (SW and white scars) thus counting as coming from neither chapter, thus benefits from neither chapter tactics.

 easysauce wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
... the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them.

Not quite. The wording is as follows:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactics.

right... the unit contains models from two different chapters (SW and white scars) thus counting as coming from neither chapter, thus benefits from neither chapter tactics.

Space Wolves don't count as a Chapter so far as Codex: Space Marines is concerned. Neither do the Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights. The only way to invalidate the Chapter Tactics is if you have two models with different Chapter Tactics in one unit.

A Chapter Tactics (Salamanders) unit with an attached Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) Captain will lose the benefit of both tactics.
A Chapter Tactics (Salamanders) unit with an attached Space Wolves Wolf Lord will retain its Chapter Tactics as there are not two different varieties present.

I was really disappointed that the Dark Angels didn't have Chapter Tactics (Dark Angels). One step forward, two back.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I was really disappointed that the Dark Angels didn't have Chapter Tactics (Dark Angels). One step forward, two back.

They do. what would you call +1 bs overwatch and rerollable jink saves?

DA have way more chapter specific rules than anything in codex space marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
... the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them.

Not quite. The wording is as follows:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactics.

right... the unit contains models from two different chapters (SW and white scars) thus counting as coming from neither chapter, thus benefits from neither chapter tactics.

Space Wolves don't count as a Chapter so far as Codex: Space Marines is concerned. Neither do the Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights. The only way to invalidate the Chapter Tactics is if you have two models with different Chapter Tactics in one unit.

A Chapter Tactics (Salamanders) unit with an attached Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) Captain will lose the benefit of both tactics.
A Chapter Tactics (Salamanders) unit with an attached Space Wolves Wolf Lord will retain its Chapter Tactics as there are not two different varieties present.

I'm still not convinced that there are two definitions of "chapter"

They do. what would you call +1 bs overwatch and rerollable jink saves? 

DA have way more chapter specific rules than anything in codex space marines

Yes Grim Resolve is their version of chapter tactics (much like Counter Attack and Furious Charge). However the point he was making is that it would have been better and neater from rules perspective to call it CT(DAs) to ensure it interacted with the SM CTs rule in a sensible way. As currently only Codex Chapters get confused when fighting with each other but work fine with SWs, BAs and DAs who likewise are all best buds. So UMs and Sallies don't work together as well as DAs and puppies which is dumb from a fluff point of view and a little silly from a rules one too.

Easy solution is to FAQ the other books to say which units have CT's. I'll start holding my breath now.

 easysauce wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
... the wording of the rule IIRC is to the effect that the whole unit must have chapter tactics to benefit from them.

Not quite. The wording is as follows:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactics.

right... the unit contains models from two different chapters (SW and white scars) thus counting as coming from neither chapter, thus benefits from neither chapter tactics.

You need to read the entire paragraph to contextualize the definition of chapter:

"All models drawn from a given Chapter benefit from that Chapter’s Chapter Tactics rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character or unit with the Chapter Tactics special rule that is drawn from the given Chapter. If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic." (emphasis mine)

-Games Workshop Ltd. Codex - Space Marines (Kindle Locations 5000-5003). Games Workshop Ltd.

As you can see, they were very careful to preface the restriction to chapters with the Chapter Tactics special rule. As BA/SW/DA/GK do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule, there is nothing to cancel chapter tactics when a model with CT enters a unit from these armies without chapter tactics of their own.

Should GW call BA/SW/DA/GK special rules chapter tactics? Maybe; from a fluff perspective. But that's why we have a tournament scene, where most players care little about background or are able to ignore inconsistencies, and we have a "forge a narrative" community who can rectify these things before games without requiring errata from Nottingham.

yes, it looks like if you look at the whole rule it specifically would mean just things from codex space marines, the incomplete rule above that didnt specify


thats going to make for a few nice boosts for pretty much every IOM battle brothers ally then

Most definitely. It's a little bit frustrating from a fluff perspective, but it certainly makes me happy as a very occasional tournament player.