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The corrupt high lords of Terra and planetary governors resemble Mussolini's deputies, the blind absolute devotion to the Emperor seems like Imperialist Japan, and the "superhuman" Space Marines and Cultish AdMech forces that remove all individuality and Astra Militarium forces with Stalinist Commissar's resemble Stalinist Russia and SS forces of Nazi Germany.

Imperium is extremely xenophobic and hates all non-humans with or without grounds (including non-automatically hostile Xenos such as Tau or Craftworld Eldar. Imperium official line is to kill all Xenos without mercy whether they are Eldar civilian Craftworlds or Tyranids).

They frequently commit genocide or condemn entire planetary systems to generation of slavery. In the great crusade they obliterated countless peaceful Xenos and other human societies without mercy or humanity. They worship the "Übermensch" in the form of un-natural Space Marines who are barely human and not created naturally. They have an oppressive secret police that monitors all of their population like the Gestapo. They have an oppressive cult theocracy that demands worship to justify its own existence that makes the Jesuits in their heyday seem like saints.

40k space marine players love to shout "for the Emperor" and loves to role-play about how they are fighting for humanity (with barely human artificially created in a tube space marines) but does Imperium really justify its own existence? The excuse is humanity MUST do these things to survive - but does it really? The Imperium MUST shoot all Xenos on sight, the Imperium MUST exterminate entire hive cities if they rebel, does the Imperium HAVE to enforce a brutal theocracy? Does the imperium HAVE to exterminate different societies of other humans or Xenos?

Did Nazi Germany or Japan HAVE to pursue a imperialist aggressive oppressive policy of expansion? Did they have to condemn entire populations to extermination? Did they really have no other choice than immense misery, suffering, and death waged on the world?

Or are these all lies the Imperium and Games Workshop spreads to justify their own brutal existence? There is always a choice and the choices societies makes gives them their own self-worth. So I ask you: Does the IOM deserve to exist?

Pretty fun post. Depends on your lense. Morally using contemporary western values? No - kind of horrific. But - they are facing literal hell, they are preyed upon by EVERY species (save maybe Tau), and humanity is on the brink of extinction. What would you do to prevent your species extinction? If it was me, I'd hope I make some crazy Space Marines, start purging xenos/traitors, and make them pry a hot, empty bolter from my cold dead hands. Otherwise you are just like the Eldar. Ugh.

The Eldar would feed every man, woman & child alive head first into a wood chipper if they thought it would prolong the existance of a single eldar life by five minutes. They are the most arrogant, manipulative & racist species in the galaxy. There are NOOOOO good guys in the 40k universe. Trying to find a villian is almost as naive & futile.

 Red Marine wrote:
The Eldar would feed every man, woman & child alive head first into a wood chipper if they thought it would prolong the existance of a single eldar life by five minutes. They are the most arrogant, manipulative & racist species in the galaxy. There are NOOOOO good guys in the 40k universe. Trying to find a villian is almost as naive & futile.

HGHCOUGHCOUGHCHAOSCOUGHCOUGHTYRANIDSCOUGHCOUGHDARKELDARCOUGHCOUGH

 zgort wrote:
But - they are facing literal hell, they are preyed upon by EVERY species (save maybe Tau), and humanity is on the brink of extinction.

Are you serious? If you don't think the Tau are a threat to them then you don't actually read the fluff.

The Imperium is victim to the same stubborn stupidity that plagues all the almost-good factions of 40k. The sheer size of the Imperium allows for some impressive displays of force, but it also causes it to choke on its own bloated paperwork, sluggish response times, and stagnant policies. The rulers on Terra are essentially too afraid of loosening their control over humanity because A. it contradicts what the Emperor was going for, B. it's a risky approach, and C. it diminishes their personal power.

The Imperium would probably be much more efficient if it were a series of smaller territories that worked in cooperation. You'd have a relatively tough time getting Space Wolves to show up to fight Tau from all the way across the Galaxy, but you'd be able to coordinate with the local marine chapter(s) much better instead. You'd lose out on some of the technology and resource exchanges, but considering tyranids and daemons exist, you could probably convince your neighbors to send some prometheum your way.

The reasoning behind various factions not working together better is also pretty flimsy. Eldar won't work with other species because of their arrogance... But, y'know, they're going extinct. I think they can probably find a way to recontextualize hanging out with some humans on the battlefield for the sake of not becoming 'nid food. The Tau are all about cooperating for the greater good. Even if the eldar don't want to be subsumed into the greater good, it seems like they should be able to easily coordinate strikes against ork threats. Humanity could use the advanced tech and manpower of many of the xenos in the galaxy both major and minor. But nope. Better to shoot those pesky demiurge on sight just in case they're up to something. Wouldn't want them talking to tech priests about ways to make weaponry more efficient or something.

Even the (non-destroyer lord) necrons could reasonably team up with a lot of other factions. You want to rule over the galaxy? Won't be much to rule after the 'nids eat it all. Want to find acceptable fleshy xenos to upload your souls into? Might want to stop the orks/nids/chaos from genociding this minor xenos species over here then.

I also feel chaos would, in many ways, be less of a threat if the Imperium weren't so uptight. Enslaving your populations and making their existences bleak and miserable isn't exactly a good way to discourage them from rising up and/or seeking the powers and joys of chaos. Have a bit of forbidden lore that will drive the reader insane and make them summon daemons? Catalogue it, and police it in a relatively open fashion so that worlds aren't just blinsided by chaos/genestealer cults over and over. There are a ton of marine stories involving chaos that make me go, "You know, if you'd used your words here, your chapter might not have plunged into chaos on you."

TLdR; the Imperium's actions aren't really justified by the grimdark setting because in addition to being terrible, they're also stupid. Like, they make sense as a knee-jerk reaction or heuristic approach to some of the problems they face, but pretty much every policy they have is destroying them in some way.

DorianGray wrote:
The corrupt high lords of Terra and planetary governors resemble Mussolini's deputies, the blind absolute devotion to the Emperor seems like Imperialist Japan, and the "superhuman" Space Marines and Cultish AdMech forces that remove all individuality and Astra Militarium forces with Stalinist Commissar's resemble Stalinist Russia and SS forces of Nazi Germany.

Imperium is extremely xenophobic and hates all non-humans with or without grounds (including non-automatically hostile Xenos such as Tau or Craftworld Eldar. Imperium official line is to kill all Xenos without mercy whether they are Eldar civilian Craftworlds or Tyranids).

They frequently commit genocide or condemn entire planetary systems to generation of slavery. In the great crusade they obliterated countless peaceful Xenos and other human societies without mercy or humanity. They worship the "Übermensch" in the form of un-natural Space Marines who are barely human and not created naturally. They have an oppressive secret police that monitors all of their population like the Gestapo. They have an oppressive cult theocracy that demands worship to justify its own existence that makes the Jesuits in their heyday seem like saints.

40k space marine players love to shout "for the Emperor" and loves to role-play about how they are fighting for humanity (with barely human artificially created in a tube space marines) but does Imperium really justify its own existence? The excuse is humanity MUST do these things to survive - but does it really? The Imperium MUST shoot all Xenos on sight, the Imperium MUST exterminate entire hive cities if they rebel, does the Imperium HAVE to enforce a brutal theocracy? Does the imperium HAVE to exterminate different societies of other humans or Xenos?

Did Nazi Germany or Japan HAVE to pursue a imperialist aggressive oppressive policy of expansion? Did they have to condemn entire populations to extermination? Did they really have no other choice than immense misery, suffering, and death waged on the world?

Or are these all lies the Imperium and Games Workshop spreads to justify their own brutal existence? There is always a choice and the choices societies makes gives them their own self-worth. So I ask you: Does the IOM deserve to exist?

Read my signature.

To be fair, if I was in a world where one alien species wants to eat you, another wants to enslave, rape you, then kill you, a third wants to simply kill you because you are not them, a fourth wants to create a new world (without you!), and a fifth is an ancient dynasty that wants to reclaim its world. Yea... i'd shoot anything that freaking twitches. And thats not even counting daemons who want to kill you, then torture you in the warp for eternity.

DorianGray wrote:
. In the great crusade they obliterated countless peaceful Xenos and other human societies without mercy or humanity.

Nothing 'peaceful' about those xenos mate. Read the Horus heresy books from forgeworld. This is 40k, not Star Trek. There are no 'nice guys', no 'friendly aliens', no peace amongst the stars.

DorianGray wrote:
.
The excuse is humanity MUST do these things to survive - but does it really? The Imperium MUST shoot all Xenos on sight, the Imperium MUST exterminate entire hive cities if they rebel, does the Imperium HAVE to enforce a brutal theocracy? Does the imperium HAVE to exterminate different societies of other humans or Xenos?

Yes to it all.

the IoM can ONLY exist because it acts in this fashion

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
The Eldar would feed every man, woman & child alive head first into a wood chipper if they thought it would prolong the existance of a single eldar life by five minutes. They are the most arrogant, manipulative & racist species in the galaxy. There are NOOOOO good guys in the 40k universe. Trying to find a villian is almost as naive & futile.

HGHCOUGHCOUGHCHAOSCOUGHCOUGHTYRANIDSCOUGHCOUGHDARKELDARCOUGHCOUGH

The shark that just ate your leg isn't evil, and neither are the Tyranids.

Chaos can be debated. Nurgle is filled with (contagious) affection, for instance. And it could be argued that Chaos is the necessary counter-balance to the (low performance) Order that is the Imperium. All in all, I'd agree that Chaos is the big bad of 40K, but I won't fault anyone for thinking differently.

Now Dark Eldar I can agree with, and no convincing argument could be made to the contrary.

 Sidstyler wrote:


Are you serious? If you don't think the Tau are a threat to them then you don't actually read the fluff.

Tau are most definitely a threat - what I meant is that they don't actively hunt/prey on the Imperium. They are expanding, but for the greater good, not for the sake of killing men.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
the IoM can ONLY exist because it acts in this fashion

I really like this. Kind of a survival of the fittest: shoot first = survive

 JTFirefly wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
The Eldar would feed every man, woman & child alive head first into a wood chipper if they thought it would prolong the existance of a single eldar life by five minutes. They are the most arrogant, manipulative & racist species in the galaxy. There are NOOOOO good guys in the 40k universe. Trying to find a villian is almost as naive & futile.

HGHCOUGHCOUGHCHAOSCOUGHCOUGHTYRANIDSCOUGHCOUGHDARKELDARCOUGHCOUGH

The shark that just ate your leg isn't evil, and neither are the Tyranids.

Chaos can be debated. Nurgle is filled with (contagious) affection, for instance. And it could be argued that Chaos is the necessary counter-balance to the (low performance) Order that is the Imperium. All in all, I'd agree that Chaos is the big bad of 40K, but I won't fault anyone for thinking differently.

Now Dark Eldar I can agree with, and no convincing argument could be made to the contrary.

Challenge accepted! The dark eldar don't exhibit evil behavior purely out of self-indulgence. I mean, that's part of it, but the pain and suffering of others is also the only thing keeping them from being eaten by a terrifying Shoggoth that wants to do unthinkable things to them for centuries until their mind/soul finally dissolves. The self-indulgence is just an addictive bonus. It's like if you had a disease that required you take an addictive medicine that causes fun hallucinations to avoid dying. Even if you look forward to taking the medicine for the hallucinations, it doesn't mean it's not necessary for your survival.

You could make the argument that dark eldar could potentially use exodite or craftworlder methods to avoid being eaten, but 99% of dark eldar lack the education needed to know that those are realistic options or the resources necessary to leave Commorragh to take a shot at it. And then there's the social stigma your birthplace and culture would have if you tried to make your case to craftworlders and exodites. You can probably sort of escape Comorragh as a corsair, but your stigma stays with you, Corsairs don't have a way to directly escape Slaanesh themselves (they use whatever method their culture taught them it seems), and going from being a kabalite (let's say) to a corsair implies potetial enemy-making. Unless you're a true born, it's hard to not eat souls without condemning yourself to a fate worse than death.

@Psiensis: I know that the go-to defense of the Imperium is "it's necessary," but I simply don't believe that. Look at all the planets who force terrible "living" conditions onto the population. They're just begging for an uprising. Because that's what humans do when rulers are oppressive to their people for extended periods of time. If a planet isn't fond of the tithe to the IG, you're essentially kidnapping huge chunks of their population. If those planets rebel, and you spend more IG lives calming the rebellion than you got from the tithe, isn't it officially counter-productive to have that tithe? If the rebels raid a manufactorum for weapons, are the handful of extra weapons the unreasonable work conditions produced worth potentially losing every weapon on the planet at a given time? How about when you consider that all those weapons being introduced to the populace will result in more dangerous hive ganger activity and increase the chances of further future rebellions? And then there's the Mechancius, which to be fair is semi-distinct from he Imperium. Their fear of innovation helps to prevent the occassional mad scientist experiment from going haywire, but it also detriments the Imperium at large by denying its people the technology that might otherwise defeat major threats and by making the Imperium slowly fall further behind the Tau, demiurge, and even eldar in terms of technological advancement.

Also, the current Imperium is basically a perfect farm for chaos god emotional noms. Chaos likes the way the Imperium is. Everyone except maybe Tzeentch basically wants it to stay the way it is. They would be hard-pressed to do a worse job handling chaos than they are right now. Based on the way tyranid invasions have worked, cooperation with other xenos (and cooperation *has* proven possible in the past) would make it relatively easy to beat down Tyranid and Ork threats rather than letting them gain momentum. The Imperium is just SoL when it comes to the 'crons unless they find a diplomatic approach to them (unlikely) or team up with the guys who have fought them in the past (Eldar.) It's easy to say, "The Imperium has to be full of jerks, or the setting will destroy them!" That argument doesn't work so well when the Imperium is already failing. A strategy that makes you lose slowly still makes you lose.

DorianGray wrote:

Imperium is extremely xenophobic and hates all non-humans with or without grounds (including non-automatically hostile Xenos such as Tau or Craftworld Eldar. Imperium official line is to kill all Xenos without mercy whether they are Eldar civilian Craftworlds or Tyranids).

That's what makes them Grrrreat!

OP is a heretic that should be BURNED

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JTFirefly wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
The Eldar would feed every man, woman & child alive head first into a wood chipper if they thought it would prolong the existance of a single eldar life by five minutes. They are the most arrogant, manipulative & racist species in the galaxy. There are NOOOOO good guys in the 40k universe. Trying to find a villian is almost as naive & futile.

HGHCOUGHCOUGHCHAOSCOUGHCOUGHTYRANIDSCOUGHCOUGHDARKELDARCOUGHCOUGH

The shark that just ate your leg isn't evil, and neither are the Tyranids.

Chaos can be debated. Nurgle is filled with (contagious) affection, for instance. And it could be argued that Chaos is the necessary counter-balance to the (low performance) Order that is the Imperium. All in all, I'd agree that Chaos is the big bad of 40K, but I won't fault anyone for thinking differently.

Now Dark Eldar I can agree with, and no convincing argument could be made to the contrary.

Challenge accepted! The dark eldar don't exhibit evil behavior purely out of self-indulgence. I mean, that's part of it, but the pain and suffering of others is also the only thing keeping them from being eaten by a terrifying Shoggoth that wants to do unthinkable things to them for centuries until their mind/soul finally dissolves. The self-indulgence is just an addictive bonus. It's like if you had a disease that required you take an addictive medicine that causes fun hallucinations to avoid dying. Even if you look forward to taking the medicine for the hallucinations, it doesn't mean it's not necessary for your survival.

You could make the argument that dark eldar could potentially use exodite or craftworlder methods to avoid being eaten, but 99% of dark eldar lack the education needed to know that those are realistic options or the resources necessary to leave Commorragh to take a shot at it. And then there's the social stigma your birthplace and culture would have if you tried to make your case to craftworlders and exodites. You can probably sort of escape Comorragh as a corsair, but your stigma stays with you, Corsairs don't have a way to directly escape Slaanesh themselves (they use whatever method their culture taught them it seems), and going from being a kabalite (let's say) to a corsair implies potetial enemy-making. Unless you're a true born, it's hard to not eat souls without condemning yourself to a fate worse than death.

@Psiensis: I know that the go-to defense of the Imperium is "it's necessary," but I simply don't believe that. Look at all the planets who force terrible "living" conditions onto the population. They're just begging for an uprising. Because that's what humans do when rulers are oppressive to their people for extended periods of time. If a planet isn't fond of the tithe to the IG, you're essentially kidnapping huge chunks of their population. If those planets rebel, and you spend more IG lives calming the rebellion than you got from the tithe, isn't it officially counter-productive to have that tithe? If the rebels raid a manufactorum for weapons, are the handful of extra weapons the unreasonable work conditions produced worth potentially losing every weapon on the planet at a given time? How about when you consider that all those weapons being introduced to the populace will result in more dangerous hive ganger activity and increase the chances of further future rebellions? And then there's the Mechancius, which to be fair is semi-distinct from he Imperium. Their fear of innovation helps to prevent the occassional mad scientist experiment from going haywire, but it also detriments the Imperium at large by denying its people the technology that might otherwise defeat major threats and by making the Imperium slowly fall further behind the Tau, demiurge, and even eldar in terms of technological advancement.

Also, the current Imperium is basically a perfect farm for chaos god emotional noms. Chaos likes the way the Imperium is. Everyone except maybe Tzeentch basically wants it to stay the way it is. They would be hard-pressed to do a worse job handling chaos than they are right now. Based on the way tyranid invasions have worked, cooperation with other xenos (and cooperation *has* proven possible in the past) would make it relatively easy to beat down Tyranid and Ork threats rather than letting them gain momentum. The Imperium is just SoL when it comes to the 'crons unless they find a diplomatic approach to them (unlikely) or team up with the guys who have fought them in the past (Eldar.) It's easy to say, "The Imperium has to be full of jerks, or the setting will destroy them!" That argument doesn't work so well when the Imperium is already failing. A strategy that makes you lose slowly still makes you lose.

'Cept this falls completely apart as Dark Eldar are completely capable of abandoning their sadism and joining a craftworld after they take part in a ceremony that binds their soul to a spirit stone. Dark Eldar weren't forced to be evil- they choose to do so on a daily basis, and every day they could simply turn from their current lives and abandon their old ways to join a Craftworld, become a Corsair, or become an Exodite.

Meh, when I play my Imperium army (which are Dark Angels right now), I just create my own little faction. I like the Imperium models and army, but I really find the Imperium stupid. Like... really stupid lol. So I just end up having my own little ethic and belief

So right now, I play Dark Angels model, but painted differently. They are the Iron Vanguard. Their sole purpose is to save humanity from itself by striking at the corrupted hearth of the Imperium haha. Been seen like a millions time in movie like 1984 or V for Vendetta, but it still does the trick

@Wyzilla: I addressed those points though.

A given dark eldar is not terribly familiar with his cousins' lifestyles let alone the metaphysical implications of them. He knows that craftworlders are stuck up and no fun, and he probably knows that their spirit stones keep them safe from Slaanesh (based on how we see them interact with wraithbone and wraith constructs), but he doesn't necessarily know if that would work for him. He knows his hair turns gray and his soul feels a little gnawed upon when he doesn't drink in the suffering of others though. So if he decided to run off to an exodite or craftworld and change his stripes overnight, he'd essentially be risking his life/soul to some stories he heard about spirit stones and world spirits. And that's *if* his cousins accept him into their society. In Path of the Warrior, we meet a dark eldar who tries this, and his origins are treated as a highly taboo subject.

Now, let's say the dark eldar is just gosh darned dedicated to trying this life change. He's dead set on going out and joining a craftworld or something. Well, how is he going to get there? Making his way across Commorragh is a lethal risk, especially if he doesn't have a couple raiders full of buddies backing him up. Unless he's an archon or at least a dracon or something, he probably doesn't "own" his own venom let alone a ship capable of making a potentially very long journey in a reasonable span of time.

So let's say he somehow convinces enough other people to help him take over a ship or something. There's a very unhappy Archon that wants to do terrible things to him now. His life and the lives of those that protect him will forever be at risk as a result of his method of escape.

So maybe he simply joins a raiding party and tries to jump ship when they reach a maiden world. Well, those exodites or craftworlders or what have you probably aren't going to feel too welcoming towards the guy in the same armor as the people actively enslaving their family members.

So maybe he just goes the corsair route. Well, that's all well and good. I mean, he was probably grown in a tube by someone who considers him property, so he might have enemies to worry about, and the whole "getting across the city to talk to the Corsairs in the first place" thing is still a concern, but sure. Let's say he finds a good opportunity to become a pirate. Corsairs don't have some unique way of preventing Slaanesh from eating them. If you used to be a craftworlder, you probably still have a spirit stone. If you used to be a citizen of the dark city, you probably have to torture something or at least engage in frequent and painful sparring matches or something to get your sustenance. And depending on your corsair prince, you might still be doing basically the same thing you did as part of a kabalite raiding party. You could jump ship at one of the "trading hubs" we see in Path of the Outcast, but they aren't likely to have an answer for your soul thirst either.

So maybe you serve the corsairs until you get to a craftworld or something. Now that could work. Provided they accept you. So all you have to do to not be evil if you're born in Comorragh is:
1. Believe blindly that a spirit stone you've never actually seen can prevent the the gnawing at your soul that you know exists.
2. Somehow make your way across one of the most terrifying cities in the 40k setting without proper support from your kabal/cult/whatever.
3. Convince some corsairs you probably don't know very well to let you join up with them even though you're pretty clearly running away from a potential enemy.
4. Find a way to deal with your soul being drained away while on the corsair crew that doesn't cause you to be kicked off the ship.
5. Wait for the corsairs to pull into a craftworld port.
6. Convince the craftworlders that, even though you're from the place they tell their children about to scare them into behaving, you totally won't do awful things to them if they pretty please let you move in next door and give you one of their rare and precious spirit stones.
7. Find a way to adapt your behavior to suit your surroundings. Sure, all you've known for possibly centuries is torture and violence and hedonism, but how hard can it be to get along with some artists and poets that consider all those things to be anathema? I'm sure no one in the psychically-sensitive race will consider kicking you out and taking your spirit stone as you walk around town radiating an aura of predatory hunger.

The lies the Imperium uses to justify its brutality are the same ones real-world fascists and fearmongers use. I think it's kiiiiinda important to keep that in mind, when discussing the grimdark, because otherwise you sound like a creeper. And I don't mean the "HISSSSSSS" kind, either. ^^;

I personally feel that the Farsight Enclaves strike a much more reasonable balance between fighting what needs to be fought (Orks, 'Nids, Daemons) and befriending whomever you can (Kroot, isolated humans, each other). They're largely made up of rebels from both the IoM and the Empire, and they're doing a damned good job of making their part of the galaxy safe and livable.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
OP is a heretic that should be BURNED

Wish I could exalt twice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PandaHero wrote:
Meh, when I play my Imperium army (which are Dark Angels right now), I just create my own little faction. I like the Imperium models and army, but I really find the Imperium stupid. Like... really stupid lol. So I just end up having my own little ethic and belief

So right now, I play Dark Angels model, but painted differently. They are the Iron Vanguard. Their sole purpose is to save humanity from itself by striking at the corrupted hearth of the Imperium haha. Been seen like a millions time in movie like 1984 or V for Vendetta, but it still does the trick

Yikes, a traitor to your own species. All that's left is to pick a chaos god, heretic

Challenge accepted! The dark eldar don't exhibit evil behavior purely out of self-indulgence. I mean, that's part of it, but the pain and suffering of others is also the only thing keeping them from being eaten by a terrifying Shoggoth that wants to do unthinkable things to them for centuries until their mind/soul finally dissolves. The self-indulgence is just an addictive bonus. It's like if you had a disease that required you take an addictive medicine that causes fun hallucinations to avoid dying. Even if you look forward to taking the medicine for the hallucinations, it doesn't mean it's not necessary for your survival.

Except they do these things by choice, not because they have to. They could join their brethren on the Craftworlds, walk the Paths, and be as safe as the CWE are.

But, no, it's torture-rape-drugs-sex-death for the Dark Eldar, because they like it that way. That's what makes them evil. There are other options, and they choose to ignore them for more rape and murder.

Dark Eldar are *very* aware of how Craftworld Eldar live. There are members of both sides who cross back and forth fairly frequently, and who "meet in the middle" as Eldar Corsairs. These cultures are not foreign to one another, considering that the CWE existed in the pre-Fall Eldar Empire. Those Craftworlds were not built overnight.

@Psiensis: I know that the go-to defense of the Imperium is "it's necessary," but I simply don't believe that. Look at all the planets who force terrible "living" conditions onto the population. They're just begging for an uprising. Because that's what humans do when rulers are oppressive to their people for extended periods of time. If a planet isn't fond of the tithe to the IG, you're essentially kidnapping huge chunks of their population. If those planets rebel, and you spend more IG lives calming the rebellion than you got from the tithe, isn't it officially counter-productive to have that tithe? If the rebels raid a manufactorum for weapons, are the handful of extra weapons the unreasonable work conditions produced worth potentially losing every weapon on the planet at a given time? How about when you consider that all those weapons being introduced to the populace will result in more dangerous hive ganger activity and increase the chances of further future rebellions? And then there's the Mechancius, which to be fair is semi-distinct from he Imperium. Their fear of innovation helps to prevent the occassional mad scientist experiment from going haywire, but it also detriments the Imperium at large by denying its people the technology that might otherwise defeat major threats and by making the Imperium slowly fall further behind the Tau, demiurge, and even eldar in terms of technological advancement.

Uprisings happen all the time. The Imperial Guard fights other humans far more often than it fights aliens or daemons (though many uprisings are Chaos-inspired). There is also the Adeptus Arbites, the Sisters of Battle and the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition to ensure that such uprisings are prevented from happening as much as possible and, when they do happen, crushed as quickly and brutally as possible, as an object lesson to others.

"To begin reform is to begin revolution" as the saying goes.

There's also the fact that Mankind is largely ignorant. There is no galactic TV stations or radio or internet. The vast majority of people will never, ever leave the world they are born on, and so the concept of a better life simply doesn't exist, because they have no frame of reference to believe that such a thing could exist.

The last time there was widespread dissemination of technology, Mankind drove itself to the brink of extinction with the Men of Iron. Why would you risk that again, especially considering that, were it to happen again, there would be no recovering? Such an event would be the death-knell of the species.

In my opinion the imperieum deserves to exist simply because it has done so against all the gibbering mass hordes arrayed against them. Sure they are cruel inneficient, wasteful, stagnant, and moronic at times. But somehow against the trillions of tyranids orks daemons and other xenos just aching to kill all humans they survive.
So hells yeah do they deserve it, so do the craftworlds clinging to life, the tau fighting for the greater good and anyone else. It's the grimdark the strong will eat and the weak are meat.

The Imperium isn't a person, how can it deserve somthing or not. Only the people in the Imperium can and they vary wildly from humane and heroic to monsteous and evil. Can you say that the Imperials fromone Guard regiment who fihts to protect a planet of innocents deserve to be compared to another regiment that murders a planet full of innocents? That the torturers and sadists in the Inquisiton can be compared to thoseof the Inquisition who try to seek peaceful resolutions to conflicts before they occur? Is Commissar Cain, Gaunt or Yarrick on the same morral level as other commissars who most likely force their men to commit unforgivable acts in the Imperiums name?

The Imperiums problems are all created by itself, Chaos uprisings are the result of decades of Imperial oppresion, it's inability to tackle severe threats due to it's inability to co-operate with itself. Hell the Space Marines all hate each other.

Yet at the same time Humanity needs it. Its an alliance of trillions upon trillions of humans, any attempt to create some other society or way of living is almost impossible. Any good, honest world or person has no choice to accept the Imperiums protection or die. It already exists and it is he only thing there is,and while some parts are truly grim and make life seem worthless, there's thousands of Feudal and civilised worlds untouched by the horrors of the Imperium.

Also-



"Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

 Psienesis wrote:

Challenge accepted! The dark eldar don't exhibit evil behavior purely out of self-indulgence. I mean, that's part of it, but the pain and suffering of others is also the only thing keeping them from being eaten by a terrifying Shoggoth that wants to do unthinkable things to them for centuries until their mind/soul finally dissolves. The self-indulgence is just an addictive bonus. It's like if you had a disease that required you take an addictive medicine that causes fun hallucinations to avoid dying. Even if you look forward to taking the medicine for the hallucinations, it doesn't mean it's not necessary for your survival.

Except they do these things by choice, not because they have to. They could join their brethren on the Craftworlds, walk the Paths, and be as safe as the CWE are.

But, no, it's torture-rape-drugs-sex-death for the Dark Eldar, because they like it that way. That's what makes them evil. There are other options, and they choose to ignore them for more rape and murder.

Dark Eldar are *very* aware of how Craftworld Eldar live. There are members of both sides who cross back and forth fairly frequently, and who "meet in the middle" as Eldar Corsairs. These cultures are not foreign to one another, considering that the CWE existed in the pre-Fall Eldar Empire. Those Craftworlds were not built overnight.

Respectfully, you didn't address any of the other points in my post regarding the difficulties of traveling to a craftworld (or wherever) and then integrating. As for just joining up with the craftworlders, well, as pointed out in the rest of my previous post, that's not so easy either. A dark eldar isn't handed a pamphlet giving detailed information about a craftworld and then asked if he wants to ignore it or not. Unless he has actually been to a craftworld for some reason or spent a lot of time hanging out with a craftworlder or corsair swapping stories, everything he hears is, essentially, just a story. There's no one at hand to go up to and go, "Hey, if I just walk over to a craftworld right now and stop murdering people, will a spirit stone protect me?" "Sure will, bro!" To undertake the journey to a craftworld requires you believe a story you heard, risk your life to go on a very long trip through very dangerous territory, and all the while hope that a spirit stone will be compatible with your soul.

I think you're glossing over what an upbringing in Comorragh can safely assumed to be like too. Commorrights grow up in a constant atmosphere of pain and suffering. The one thing their vestigial psychic abilities can still detect is the pain and suffering that is both addictive and sustaining. It's like growing up with someone mixing cocaine into your food. Having an attack of conscience and wanting to change is one thing; dealing with the shakes and getting out of cocaine-town to be adopted by a cocaine-free family is another. Now keep in mind that dark eldar probably don't have an abundance of family-friendly role models. Heck, there's a good chance you were vat grown specifically to become a warrior of some sort, where violence is your bread and butter rewarded with more violence and sadism when you do a good job. That's... that's not exactly a great environment to grow up in if you want to *not* be a serial torturer later in life. Sure, a given dark eldar is able to abruptly choose to be a "good guy" at any moment (thus likely resulting in his death/long-term suffering at the hands of Slaanesh), but he's basically been brain washed and addicted to the sadism drug since he was a kid. It's not the same as just abruptly deciding to be a dick.

And again, once they manage to get to their craftworld cousins via a long and dangerous journey, they're strangers at the craftworld's door. They've got an addiction to suffering, and every person around them is a possible way to sate that addiction. They grew up on violence in a city where a "casual" flight around town in your raider required you constantly scan the skies for signs of ambush. Their postures violent. Their eyes violent, maybe a little scared, probably a lot "hungry." And then they walk up to someone and go, "Hi. I'm from the place that routinely tortures all manner of life including yours. Kindly give me one of those spirit stones some rangers probably risked their lives to obtain. And then, if the craftworlders don't freak out and eject them from the craftworld, that dark eldar has to deal with the mundane emotions of reacclimating to a new culture (times a thousand 'cause eldar psyche), will basically be dealing with a form of PTSd as they try not to freak out and attack people in crowds, and then have to completely deny themselves every pleasure they once new and replace it with a path. "Yeah, partying and doing pain cocaine was great and all, but what I really enjoy now is sculpting. Sure do like those sculptures. Yup. *eyetwitch*"

I disagree regarding the level of familiarity between cultures too. Based on what we see in the Path of books and old codicies, They only really understand one another in broad strokes. Eldar seem to be pretty self-focused, so most of them don't go around hitting up Corsairs for stories of the dark city. And if they do, they're probably more interested in fantastic imagery of arenas and spires and slave pits than asking about the daily routine of a kabalite. For dark eldar, craftworlders are just a brief curiosity easily passed over as being boring. I doubt a lot of dark eldar could recite craftworlder philosophy regarding the path of service or the path of the poet or what have you. The craftworlds weren't built overnight, but they were built a very long time ago. If I'm not mistaken, the only eldar we know of who were around when the craftworlds were created are Urien Rakarth and maybe Eldrad. And the Phoenix Lords/exarch if you want to count them. How often do you suppose any of these figures go to the other group's camp and start giving sociology and civics lectures? Harlequins might pass on a bit more, but their story-telling is probably a bit less focused on the minutia of craftworld/dark kin life.

Those who would be the CWE existed in the Pre-Fall, telling the rest of their kind to keep it down, maybe lay off the drugs a bit, and, hey, could we try not rape-murdering so many people?

Of course, the Eldar of the time didn't listen to them because, why would they, it was a great party, 'til the galaxy exploded. The lifestyles of the CWE are not unknown and foreign to the DE, as far as they're concerned, the Fall is relatively recent history.

I think you're glossing over what an upbringing in Comorragh can safely assumed to be like too. Commorrights grow up in a constant atmosphere of pain and suffering. The one thing their vestigial psychic abilities can still detect is the pain and suffering that is both addictive and sustaining. It's like growing up with someone mixing cocaine into your food. Having an attack of conscience and wanting to change is one thing; dealing with the shakes and getting out of cocaine-town to be adopted by a cocaine-free family is another. Now keep in mind that dark eldar probably don't have an abundance of family-friendly role models. Heck, there's a good chance you were vat grown specifically to become a warrior of some sort, where violence is your bread and butter rewarded with more violence and sadism when you do a good job. That's... that's not exactly a great environment to grow up in if you want to *not* be a serial torturer later in life. Sure, a given dark eldar is able to abruptly choose to be a "good guy" at any moment (thus likely resulting in his death/long-term suffering at the hands of Slaanesh), but he's basically been brain washed and addicted to the sadism drug since he was a kid. It's not the same as just abruptly deciding to be a dick.

I think you are humanizing a Xenos species far too much. What you've described is a human psychology, but not an Eldar one.

And again, once they manage to get to their craftworld cousins via a long and dangerous journey, they're strangers at the craftworld's door. They've got an addiction to suffering, and every person around them is a possible way to sate that addiction. They grew up on violence in a city where a "casual" flight around town in your raider required you constantly scan the skies for signs of ambush. Their postures violent. Their eyes violent, maybe a little scared, probably a lot "hungry." And then they walk up to someone and go, "Hi. I'm from the place that routinely tortures all manner of life including yours. Kindly give me one of those spirit stones some rangers probably risked their lives to obtain. And then, if the craftworlders don't freak out and eject them from the craftworld, that dark eldar has to deal with the mundane emotions of reacclimating to a new culture (times a thousand 'cause eldar psyche), will basically be dealing with a form of PTSd as they try not to freak out and attack people in crowds, and then have to completely deny themselves every pleasure they once new and replace it with a path. "Yeah, partying and doing pain cocaine was great and all, but what I really enjoy now is sculpting. Sure do like those sculptures. Yup. *eyetwitch*"

CWE are largely Vulcan-like (in the Spock sense) when it comes to emotion. That's the whole point of the Paths system. You shut out other emotions save one. The CWE are not hippies.

The craftworlds weren't built overnight, but they were built a very long time ago. If I'm not mistaken, the only eldar we know of who were around when the craftworlds were created are Urien Rakarth and maybe Eldrad. And the Phoenix Lords/exarch if you want to count them. How often do you suppose any of these figures go to the other group's camp and start giving sociology and civics lectures? Harlequins might pass on a bit more, but their story-telling is probably a bit less focused on the minutia of craftworld/dark kin life.

For most Eldar, the Fall was 2 or 3 generations back. They are a very, very long-lived species.

Actually, CWE's are far from Vulcan-like by Path of the Eldar. They still have paths dedicated to getting higher than Snoop Dog (literally, the dream path is about doing LSD and sleeping on it), along with consumption of alien alcohol, more drugs, and extremely expressive and emotionally enchanted art.

Makes you wonder just how hedonistic the Eldar Empire was if Craftworld Eldar would make the Dutch blush.

If they were so emotional, they would breed more.

I probably am humanizing their psychology too much. What we know about their psychology is that it's sort of like human psychology but with far more symbolism and waaaaay deeper emotions. So all those points I made about addiction and brain washing? Imagine the relevant emotions turned up to 11. Or maybe 20. The Imperium likes to make a big deal about how "alien" the eldar mentality is, and it is. But it's not like, Cthulhu-style thought patterns. They're obsessive and emotional. They're basically teenaged geeks taken to an extreme. We can makes guesses about their psychology with a reasonable amount of accuracy even if we are taking a penalty to our PS (psychology skill)

Craftworlders aren't "hippies," but they aren't cold logic engines either. They feel emotions very strongly. That's one of the reasons so many of them become artists or poets (see Path of the Warrior, Seer, and Outcast). They just channel their obssession into a constructive craft rather than letting it turn them into, well, a dark eldar. Sure, someone on the craftworld would probably be willing to make a measured argument in defense of the dark eldar, but there's still going to be a lot of very strong animosity. Especially from those eldar who have seen or been on the receiving end of dark eldar behavior. Remember, our former-dark eldar body isn't exactly advertising his nature in Path of the Warrior.

As for things being "recent history," you can't really use terms like "generations" when it comes to eldar. The fall isn't nearly as long ago from an eldar perspective as a human one, but it wasn't exactly recent either. Eldar *can* live to be really old, but they can also die in plenty of ways, and they can theoretically have tons of children over the course of their lives. Many eldar are still relatively young. Even if it's only been, say, 3 "generations," they've still had tons of time to grow apart as cultures. Especially considering the dark eldar were basically hiding from other eldar in the webway by the time the Fall happened.

No one is condoning dark eldar behavior, but if anyone can make an, "I'm a product of my environment" or, "I had to do it," plea, it's them.

"Hey, you know how pain is like, the best thing in your life, and you've been actively encouraged to inflict it since you were a child?"
"Yeah?"
"Well, how would you feel about not enjoying pain ever again, and then going on a long, dangerous, difficult journey for the sake of a set of ethics you've never been introduced to? You'll probably die and/or suffer for millenia at the hands of Slaanesh. Sound like a plan?"
"Lolwut?"


Edit: If they were *logical* they'd breed more, what with their race dying out. For all we know of eldar breeding, their emotions might be a hindrance to reproduction.

 Psienesis wrote:
If they were so emotional, they would breed more.

They have plenty of sex. They don't reproduce because the require a Tear of Isha for every child born, and spirit stones can only be obtained by Harlequin suicide squads going to a Crone World and physically retrieving them. And they obviously can't be recycled.