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I saw that Imperial Guard Veterans could have shotguns, but after seeing their stats, I wondered why anyone would take them. The same goes for Space Marine shotguns, which would also replace the same strength, Rapid Fire weapon with twice as much range.

What do you guys think, should shotguns have shred? If not, what would you do to make them worth taking?

Seems to me that what's interesting about shotguns is the ability to have the same volume of fire as a lasgun or bolter at 12" range, while still being able to charge.

I'm not sure how often Guard vets actually want to do that, but it's a legitimate tactic for Scouts. (And somewhat, if you bend and banana your brain enough, for Sternguard, but they use storm bolters instead).

I think they're good enough already - being Assault means you can charge after you shoot with them, and the extra shots means you're not losing out on volume of fire vs a lasgun/boltgun, with the downside that you lose range, as you'd expect with a shotgun. It's a near-perfect sidegrade right now IMO

Yeah. Leave shotguns alone. You trade a single crummy shot at a range for the ability to assault after firing from within optimal range for the rapid fire equivalent. A pretty solid alternative.

I'd actually like to see them as options on more units, maybe combined with the option (on Marines or maybe Sisters) to then exchange them for storm bolters for a fairly low price. The "surprise charge" is surprisingly useful. It's one of the overlooked benefits of the Necron Decurion (since they all get Relentless...), and having more shotguns around would make the option more widely available.

Death Korp engineers have access to Shotguns with shred lat I checked, but it's through an upgrade, would be nice, but they are pretty solid if you're assaulting stuff

I think they are fine as they are. Only change I would make would be for them to be S5 so they are slightly more punchier. Besides that they seem decent enough as they are.

 Slaphead wrote:
I think they are fine as they are. Only change I would make would be for them to be S5 so they are slightly more punchier. Besides that they seem decent enough as they are.

I don't think a shotgun should have a higher strength than a bolter, doesn't seem to be a reason why it should be?

 Fleshrott wrote:
Death Korp engineers have access to Shotguns with shred lat I checked, but it's through an upgrade, would be nice, but they are pretty solid if you're assaulting stuff

They seem to have normal S3 12 inch range Assault 2 shotguns like Imperial Guard Veterans do. I don't think they would be very effective in assault!

How about a variant shotgun for some higher-strength punch?

For the DOOM fans:
Super Shotgun - profile as regular shotgun, OR S+1, AP+1, Assault 1, 6" range if you give 'em both barrels

Sounds like it'd kill a Pink Horror

Str2 ap6 template, strikedown, concussive, shred.
Or
Str3 salvo 6/3range 12" (so move and get a ton of shots at very short range, or stay still and get a couple at 12")

Not balanced or anything, just a few ideas

The only reason I use them on my current IG veterans is for the fluff. My current army is based of the British and German forces in Normandy/Northern France during 1944.
As per standard organisation each 10 man section has: 1 NCO, SMG (counts as Shotgun). 1 Corpral/OR, SMG (Counts a Shotgun) and 1 BrenGun/MG42 (Counts as Heavy Bolter).
Shotguns on Veteran squads are.... Mehish, unless you are planning to assault in which case they are amazing.

 Fleshrott wrote:
Death Korp engineers have access to Shotguns with shred lat I checked, but it's through an upgrade, would be nice, but they are pretty solid if you're assaulting stuff

Only for the Assault Brigade list, where they can buy shred-shells, but they also get Gets Hot!, Siege regiments are sod outta luck, as usual

 JamesY wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
I think they are fine as they are. Only change I would make would be for them to be S5 so they are slightly more punchier. Besides that they seem decent enough as they are.

I don't think a shotgun should have a higher strength than a bolter, doesn't seem to be a reason why it should be?

You would be surprised how strong shotguns are

It also depends what kinda shell you are firing.

(IF anything a shotgun being pretty simple to use should be a +1 bs or full bs to overwatch. and thats it.

No. Shred is one of the dumbest rules of 7th edition. It's usually almost equivalent to +1 STR, but with extra dice to roll. If you want shotguns to have a better chance of wounding just give them +1 STR instead.

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Shred is one of the dumbest rules of 7th edition. It's usually almost equivalent to +1 STR, but with extra dice to roll. If you want shotguns to have a better chance of wounding just give them +1 STR instead.

The only Real difference is the threat range against vehicles. st4 you can suddenly threaten AV10 and such.

(Weather or not that important is up to you guys)

I actually quite like the idea of giving them full BS on overwatch. It's fluffy, a slight boost without being overwhelming, and helps them fill a similar niche to the flamer as defensive weapons.

My current problem with shotguns is that they're always on units that are mediocre to crap in assaults, so why do you even want to charge to begin with? A waste of vets, for sure, and usually a waste of scouts too, which tend to be bought in small numbers. You can almost always get a good value from these squads bunkering down and shooting with longer ranged special and heavy weapons, but there are VERY few situations in which charging will work out favorably for you. So as they are now, it's just not worth losing the extra range.

 Desubot wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Shred is one of the dumbest rules of 7th edition. It's usually almost equivalent to +1 STR, but with extra dice to roll. If you want shotguns to have a better chance of wounding just give them +1 STR instead.

The only Real difference is the threat range against vehicles. st4 you can suddenly threaten AV10 and such.

(Weather or not that important is up to you guys)

Have to completely agree with Desubot and disagree with Peregrine here.

Considering the amount of AV10 (at least on the side or rear) and the relatively easy glancing death of most vehicles, I'd say S4 vs. Shred makes for a huge difference in utility.

I would take S4 lasguns/shotguns over lasguns/shotguns with Shred (hypothetically) in a heartbeat.

DoW

Since someone mentioned full BS Overwatch, maybe instead how about a weaker version of what Flamers do?
Was thinking either 1 or 1d2 automatic hits on Overwatch?

CrashGordon94 wrote:
Since someone mentioned full BS Overwatch, maybe instead how about a weaker version of what Flamers do?
Was thinking either 1 or 1d2 automatic hits on Overwatch?

Its already assault 2(?) right?, a 50% to hit is already 1 hit.

No need to make it automatic or confusing.

Well, it's just that that would be more distinct and potentially more desirable given that it would be a 100% change of at least one hit either way.

Or just say it overwatches at full bs. only people with shot guns are IG which is a 50% anyway and Vetse and marines which bump it up to 4/6th to hit.

Quick simple and too the point without having to add some other mechanic or a different type of dice.

D2 and coin flips arent part of the BRB so they would have to go back and add that in. (being hyperbolic)

I was just thinking that auto-hits would give them that added "punch" over just full BS Overwatch, which might not actually be enough if shotguns are considered such a lame option and we're buffing them via an Overwatch advantage.
In comparison, guaranteed hits would be really something!