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So I have kind of hit a wall at my local gaming store. It was only a few short weeks ago that Eldar seemed to be the biggest problem facing us but now two new and incredibly irritating issues have come up to distract from the still just as painful Eldar and Necrons. I'm talking about Ad Mech and the new Spess Mehreens. As a tau player I find that I just cannot compete with this absolutely stupid influx of Grav weapons. Obviously they are the first thing I will target on any normal day but I find them to be a bit over the top especially for the fact that they are just as effective (arguably more so) against MC's. My biggest issue with them is that you don't even need a lot of them to make any decent Tau army relatively useless. (Not referring to Riptide spam as I only own one).

Just the other day I played against an Ad Mech army with two squads of Grav Kataphrons a min squad of Robots some rangers 2 Dunecrawlers and a fething allied Imperial knight. It was a hard fought battle and we didn't finish but the only reason I was able to hang on was due to a combination of tactics and luck. Thankfully due to shooting (and fortunate damage table roles) from my Hammerheads his Dunecrawlers with the S10 gun were completely nullified by turn 2 and didn't actually manage to kill anything. Also he rolled like crap for the most part with his Knight (as in completely failing to even damage a Devilfish in CC granted he didn't have his blade but still.) and only managing to kill a Hammerhead. But what got me the most was that one volley of shooting from a nearly destroyed squad of Katas took a clean 3 wounds off my Riptide (just the two of them inflicted 6 wounds but I got VERY lucky with my 5++ and FNP). Basically what I am trying to say is that I don't like the idea that I was only surviving due to fortunate roles in spite of my best tactical awareness and decisions. Anyone else have similar problems with this influx of grav weapons and OP armies?

Also on turn 3 in an attempt to get enough VP to get the technical win before we had to wrap up the game(store was closing) his stupid HQ took fire from practically my entire army and survived with his absolutely slowed 2+ 4++ FNP IWND and regenerating ass. (both squads of Stealth suits with boosted BS Hammerheads with both hitting and wounding the riptide main gun and half a squad of Fire Warriors. In all around 12 Burst Cannon wounds 6 Pulse Rifle wounds 2 Railguns to the face 2 Fusion Blaster wounds and 2 ion accelerator wounds only managed 2 wounds on the fether both of which he regenerated in the next half of the turn.

For those curious about it here is the army I brought (No crisis suits at all because feth grav weapons.)
HQ- Darkstrider(lowering toughness FTW)

Troops- 2x 12 Firewarriors with Shas'ui

Elite- 2x 6 Stealth Suits w/ 2 Fusion Blasters Shas'vre and Target Locks

Riptide w/ Ion Accelerator and Stim Injectors

Fast Attack- 2x 6 Pathfinders

Heavy Support- 2x Hammerhead w/ Railgun+Submunition and D-pods w/ Sensor Spines and Drones for cover

Dedicated Transports- Devilfish w/ D-pods and Drones

There's a very definite power gap that's opened up starting with the release of the Necrons. Armies older than that generally are much less powerful, and underwent rather extensive cut-downs in units/wargear/options and softenings in power, while starting with the Necron book they switched design paradigms and started going rather the opposite direction.

This has become very strongly noticed. Firepower potential and other shennanigans have increased noticeably.

You might need to start setting up matches ahead of time so you can ask people to dial back on the tourney-quality lists. Facing against Drop Pods all the time is ANNOYING, and the problem is only going to get worse if you're going for pick-up games against tourney-quality lists.

Try running a campaign, tell players that it's going to be escalation and fluffy. Good luck!

 Yarium wrote:


Try running a campaign, tell players that it's going to be escalation and fluffy. Good luck!

I would opt for escalation because it is "supposed" to be fun but then I guarantee that 4 out of 5 SM players would have Drop poding Melta veterans regardless of being told to tone down.

We had a kill team Tourney a few months ago and of the 3 SM players present 2 out of 3 had Sternguard veterans with Chapter tactics Iron Hands for the FNP and all the Special Ammo in the world.

Well tau were at 1 point a top tier army. Against drop pods armies...We have Interceptor access to skyfire and interceptor all around for almost all of our suits, so those kind of armies wouldn't be too bad if you give it to key units(Riptides). The FW riptides are pretty nasty, the XV 109 is brutal.

Against 6 wounds the average roll with 2 5++ saves is 3.33333 btw.

3 is perfectly average. It's not lucky.

Also, you obviously got *so* lucky destroying two AV12 vehicles with only two hammerheads a riptide two fusion blasters and a mess of Markerlights.

Also, you're complaining that you held on and actually tied the game, after destroying his two most powerful units turn 2 and evidently nearly destroying at least one unit of Kataphrons, with your Tau list that included Darkstrider and 6 of the super overpriced Stealth Suits. And his army is broken OP because...he caused some wounds to your riptide? Poor thing, do you need a hug?

Also, I hope you don't mind if I point out that point for point you can easily construct a far nastier SM character than 2+ 4++ FNP. The Dominus is an overpriced Techmarine who has no good way of getting where he's going.

Also, the knight sounds like it was a major problem, and the knight's points and stats have been around for more than a year now.

Let me tell you about how broken 40k is-I took my 1500 point all Gretchin list against SMs and I couldn't even destroy a rhino! How broken must those be?

Just wait until October, when half the Tau codex gets updated with D-weapons and we get another stupid Tau titan that shouldn't be.

And don't forget the formation of formations and all that other broken crap.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a very definite power gap that's opened up starting with the release of the Necrons. Armies older than that generally are much less powerful, and underwent rather extensive cut-downs in units/wargear/options and softenings in power, while starting with the Necron book they switched design paradigms and started going rather the opposite direction.

This has become very strongly noticed. Firepower potential and other shennanigans have increased noticeably.

Unfortunately, both of the Mechanicus books are nowhere near that "power gap" when it comes down to it.

If a Tau player is having issues with Mechanicus, I can't fathom why.

I have seen GW bring the power level down overall in 7th edition with most codex books. To expand on that, some books didn't lose power but lost options and became more balanced. Just look at codex astra militarum, blood angels, etc. All GW did was take options away and force folks to build more fluffy or allied armies/formations.

The only super overpowered/unbalanced things I have seen are:

Skyhammer formation
7th edition elder

For anything else there is always an answer. For example, people thought ravenwing's 2+ re-rollable jink saves were OP. I had an opponent take a space marine vindicator squad that shoots a s10 ap2 10" blast that ignores cover saves (that means jink saves).

the_scotsman wrote:


Also, you obviously got *so* lucky destroying two AV12 vehicles with only two hammerheads a riptide two fusion blasters and a mess of Markerlights.

So lucky? really? Markerlight boosted hits so hitting on 2's 2/3 chance of penetrating and 1/2 chance of destroying gun or outright destroying it. x4. Good roll not "So Lucky"

Also, you're complaining that you held on and actually tied the game, after destroying his two most powerful units turn 2 and evidently nearly destroying at least one unit of Kataphrons, with your Tau list that included Darkstrider and 6 of the super overpriced Stealth Suits. And his army is broken OP because...he caused some wounds to your riptide? Poor thing, do you need a hug?

Correction, lost the game and by turn three I had no fire warriors 7 of my original 12 stealths a single hammerhead down 2 hp and a 2 wound Riptide. All while his stuff was very obviously underperforming, not performing adequately.

Also, the knight sounds like it was a major problem, and the knight's points and stats have been around for more than a year now.

The knight should have been a problem but as I said it performed poorly.(uncharacteristically so) My list wasn't tailored to play him it was a premade that I went in with to fight anyone. The only reason my riptide didn't die was because it was as far back as I could get it. one more turn and everything would have been in range to murder it. Basically what I am saying is that had the game continued I would have most definitely lost. Regardless of how much effort I put into it.

Also calm down no one is fighting here I am just pointing out my views on the matter and the eventual end of the situation. I don't mind feedback but try to state your opinion politely and non-aggressively. Also I don't want to hear anything about how "oh tau are so ridiculous oh tau, riptides are cheap" I've been with them since the start of 5th when they were litteral garbage and I didn't play them at all during 6th because They were too good at the time to provide a fun fair game without me severely neutering my list.

I speak from the point of view that the game should be fun and you should be able to build a fun/fluffy list without insta losing to your local win at all costs douche bag. Which is why I even consider stealth suits.

from DaKKaLAnce
Well tau were at 1 point a top tier army. Against drop pods armies...We have Interceptor access to skyfire and interceptor all around for almost all of our suits, so those kind of armies wouldn't be too bad if you give it to key units(Riptides). The FW riptides are pretty nasty, the XV 109 is brutal.

Only if you custom tailor lists which honestly isn't the point of the game.

Unfortunately, Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus kind of have to list tailor to an extent.

For Skitarii, two of their three Ranger/Vanguard squad special weapons are built around taking on armoured vehicles(Arc Rifles with Haywire and TAs with Armourbane) while the third special weapon is 30 points for an 18" Plasma Gun with the Assault 3 trait.

There isn't really a "TAC" list for them which doesn't involve Allies.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's a very definite power gap that's opened up starting with the release of the Necrons. Armies older than that generally are much less powerful, and underwent rather extensive cut-downs in units/wargear/options and softenings in power, while starting with the Necron book they switched design paradigms and started going rather the opposite direction.

This has become very strongly noticed. Firepower potential and other shennanigans have increased noticeably.

Yes, I agree with this.

On the bright side, you can finally play some things that are fluffy AND powerful -- battle forces that look like something a faction might field rather than a spam lists is a huge, huge plus for me. If you aren't just trying to have the super-duper-absolutely-best-list, the new factions (after Necron) also give you a LOT of options for things that are good enough to consider playing.

Before the newest codex releases, we played a lot of self-constructed scenarios to make fluffy or themed lists viable; now, we're actually able to just play themed lists in standard games (though we still do a lot of constructed scenarios) without being totally handicapped.

I sincerely hope that GW continues down the path and gives every faction this treatment. I'd be a very happy 40k player were this so! I am very much against a design philosophy of just balancing individual units and basing it on points costs, because no matter what, that leads to certain units being more useful than others, and too often devolves into some form of unit repetitiveness in an effort to optimize.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:

from DaKKaLAnce
Well tau were at 1 point a top tier army. Against drop pods armies...We have Interceptor access to skyfire and interceptor all around for almost all of our suits, so those kind of armies wouldn't be too bad if you give it to key units(Riptides). The FW riptides are pretty nasty, the XV 109 is brutal.

Only if you custom tailor lists which honestly isn't the point of the game.

Reserves and deep strike tactics are common enough that paying 5 points on a handful of good models like a tide and broadsides is hardly tailoring. One of the scariest things to me in tourneys is still the ol' firebase cadre formation with EWO on everything. Even skyhammer grimaces at seeing that on the table.

456_PWR wrote:
The only super overpowered/unbalanced things I have seen are:
Skyhammer formation
7th edition elder

For anything else there is always an answer. For example, people thought ravenwing's 2+ re-rollable jink saves were OP. I had an opponent take a space marine vindicator squad that shoots a s10 ap2 10" blast that ignores cover saves (that means jink saves).

First, I don't think you've played against enough necron decurions. They are arguably slightly stronger than eldar, and have plenty of tourney results to back it up. They may not kill you off the board as fast as eldar, but you can go through entire turns on offense and deal like 2 successful wounds or less. They are super-easy-mode. If you want a decurion tourney army, take a minimum rec legion, harvest, and destroyer cult, then add your favorite personal touches like a lychguard deathstar or ghost arks for the warriors. Unless you're really bad as a player you're nearly guaranteed* to be in the upper tables of any tourney with that.

*assumes you don't run into other, better, necron players.

2+ rerollable cover IS OP. If they lost to a full vindicator unit, they deserve to lose. That gimmick is super easy to get around. If you can't at least inflict shaken on an AV 13/11/10 non-skimmer, or stay out of the 30" threat range until you can, you deserve to be hit with the gimmick blast. I have yet to see that unit get to actually fire that shot in the span of 4 games of people trying them out.

Are you kidding me...you took 3 wounds on a riptide from grav and you are crying!!

You are aware that grav is made to kill MC's/GC's right?

Also, you are aware that the smashf**ker was a thing before the new book right?

The things you are crying about arent things that are unique Tau problems, nor are they OP issues. Its part of the game that some stuff will be stronger in some ways than your stuff is...thats why there is strategy and tactics involved in playing these style of games.


Soooo...try keeping grav away from the riptide (and broadsides and its still decent against battlesuits) but firewarriors and pathfinders dont really care about grav, throw them out there as a wall!

Then once your riptide is still alive...dont shoot smashf**ker, use a squad of something to tie him up forever. preferably on an objective while he isnt obsec and you are.

I think Mechanicum (Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii together as they were intended to be) is plenty powerful. A squad of 3 Kataphron Destroyers for 165ish points puts out 18 grav shots a turn with 30" range o.O

I have no sympathy for the OP. that sounded like a fun and close game, with a lot of back and forth and a lot of death.

Do you expect us to feel bad for you because you didnt completely annihilate your opponent? You also come out and say that you were the better player and had better tactics.

Man what is this game all about anymore? I thought the idea was to play games with nicely painted models and enjoy rolling dice and the watching the chaos of war as everything dies in a blaze of glory.

That sounds like fun to me, And in this event it sounds like it was a close battle! You were both losing models and it took your "superior tactics" to hang on to the game.

If you didnt cause a single wound and he killed all your units, then maybe there would have been something to this post.

 Icculus wrote:
I have no sympathy for the OP. that sounded like a fun and close game, with a lot of back and forth and a lot of death.

Do you expect us to feel bad for you because you didnt completely annihilate your opponent? You also come out and say that you were the better player and had better tactics.

Man what is this game all about anymore? I thought the idea was to play games with nicely painted models and enjoy rolling dice and the watching the chaos of war as everything dies in a blaze of glory.

That sounds like fun to me, And in this event it sounds like it was a close battle! You were both losing models and it took your "superior tactics" to hang on to the game.

If you didnt cause a single wound and he killed all your units, then maybe there would have been something to this post.

All I am saying is that he would have handily tabled me and had plenty to spare had the game gone on any longer. And regardless I still lost despite a good performance on my part. Not once did I say I had superior tactics this was a skilled player. I am simply pointing out that I am not some shinyfaced noob who has only basic knowledge of how to play. It just gets me down when a game cannot be won regardless of what I do even when I have lucky roles. As in even if you chance the game on luck and get lucky you still can't win.

Btw I am refering to kill point games not to objective games the two are distinctly different for certain armies.

 Icculus wrote:
Man what is this game all about anymore?

feth if I know anymore. Handing GW all your money, then going online to bitch at Eldar, Tau, etc. players and blame them for all the problems with the game while telling them to kill themselves? Because that's what a lot of people do.

Honestly though I'm not sure what the point of the thread is, the game in the OP doesn't sound like a bad one to me, either. You can't win them all.

The problem is that the offensive power FAR outweighs the defensive durability. In all honesty, when was the last time you played a 5 turn game with optimum lists?
Tabling is FAR too common an occurance. It should be as common as 7 balling in pool or a 5-0 thrashing in football.

Sorry about all the forum rage.

This game is decided by the dice, I've had games with list and tactical advantage still to only crumble to bad rolls.

Some builds and armies are more effective against others, ad mech screams anti tau and eldar to me.

Better luck next time I guess, sounded like a decent battle regardless.

Tau players complain about other armies being OP? Lol.
You lost a game, so what? You put up a good fight and were far from tabled. That is no ground to say AdMech is OP. It would have been OP if AdMech consistently wins the majority of games for the majority of AdMech players. IMO, this is not true. AdMech are a strong army, but Tau and most other armies have a fair chance at coming out on top.

One single game is not enough to draw conclusions.

 Cytharai wrote:
I think Mechanicum (Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii together as they were intended to be) is plenty powerful. A squad of 3 Kataphron Destroyers for 165ish points puts out 18 grav shots a turn with 30" range o.O

A "squad of 3 Kataphron Destroyers", while 165 points, is still BS3, T5, 2W, and a 4+ armor save.

Those "18 grav shots" are needing 4+'s to hit and from a platform that can't Run and still allows for a Cover Save. Retaining the Phosphor Blaster(-1 to a Cover Save if you make Unsaved Wounds with a S5 AP4, Rapid Fire weapon with a 24" range), you can kind of deal with that Cover Save but eh.

From the moment I saw the rules for Kataphron destroyers I knew Tau players would get upset about it

I can't say I really gave a gak about their feelings but it sure earned me some little bit of respect towards GW for not making another army instant fodder for Riptides

Ofc then seeing I'd have to buy another Admech Codex and pay the extortionate amount they want for them kind of killed that little gain pretty hard but you know what I mean

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Tau players complain about other armies being OP? Lol.

No, one is. Although honestly I wouldn't rank Tau on the top tier anymore, and the only ones that still do seem to have a grudge.

Well how bout this: instead of "muh opposing list so OP" let's look at what you did.


1) took down 2 DCs turn two. I'm assuming that was Markerlights, and at least the railheads. Were those actually the priority target? You have tanks with 3+ Jink saves, and a riptide with an arseload of wounds. Instead, your firepower could be put towards plugging the Kataphrons that demolish your troops and riptide with ease. Aren't submunitions rounds something like S6 AP4? Perfect for Kataphrons. Or heck, pump some holes in that knight, it's got firepower that's way scarier to you



2) you shot all your firepower into a 2+ 4+ FNP character. Uh, why? He's a durable character with very little offensive threat. What's he gonna do, wish he could get in cc with your skimmers and riptide? You claim "b-but I used all muh tactics and I still lost" but the only examples of your gameplay we got were tactical errors.

Skiitari/cult mech is an entirely new army. It's got it's good units (Kataphron Destroyers armed specifically with Grav Cannons) and their godawful units (techpriests anyone? 19pt T3 infantry with 5+ saves? Any takers?) but it's far from Eldar/Ducurion level crazy.

I know everyone who plays 40k Ioves to think they've got the whole game "figured out" and every move they make is perfect and if they lose it was either bad dice or an OP list, but it's not true. Your decision to say "holy gak, S10 AP1, I gotta kill that" even though your army was way more equipped to handle that than the grav that was more vulnerable to your weapons was probably what lost you the early game.