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2015/07/03 16:57:28
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Police in northern Germany have seized a World War Two tank which was being kept in a pensioner's cellar.
The Panther tank was removed from the 78-year-old's house in the town of Heikendorf, along with a variety of other military equipment, including a torpedo and an anti-aircraft gun, Der Tagesspiegel website reports. It wasn't an easy job to get it all out - the army had to be called in with modern-day tanks to haul the Panther from its cellar. It took about 20 soldiers almost nine hours to extract the tank - which was without its tracks - and push it onto a low-loader, the report says. As the surreal scene unfolded, local residents gathered at the end of the driveway to watch.
Prosecutors in the nearby city of Kiel are investigating whether the man's military collection violates Germany's War Weapons Control Act. But his lawyer says the weapons are no longer functional, therefore shouldn't be restricted.
Local prosecutors were tipped off about the cellar's contents by colleagues in Berlin, who searched the home for stolen Nazi art earlier this year.
It seems the tank's presence wasn't much of a secret locally. Several German media reports mention that residents had seen the man driving it around town about 30 years ago. "He was chugging around in it during the snow catastrophe in 1978," Mayor Alexander Orth was quoted as saying. But he later added: "I took this to be the eccentricity of an old man, but it looks like there's more to it than that."
2015/07/03 17:09:14
Subject: Re:WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Wonder what happened to the tracks if he was driving it thirty years ago? Hmn. If the state now owns them can they go to a museum or will they wallow in storage for decades? Those look to be in great condition, so it would be a massive waste for that to happen.
2015/07/03 17:15:11
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Well I can see why they took it away -he was in clear violation of the Force Organisation Chart. 2 Heavy Support choices, 1 fast attack, and nothing else?! Just plain cheating!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 23:39:46
I let the dogs out
2015/07/03 19:12:13
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
By cellar I assume they're talking about something with a ramp leading down into it. The guy clearly has money given that he has that hardware in his basement and had the authorities off searching for Nazi gold in his house just before this, so he's not living in some one bedroom flat...
2015/07/03 19:39:41
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Wyrmalla wrote: By cellar I assume they're talking about something with a ramp leading down into it. The guy clearly has money given that he has that hardware in his basement and had the authorities off searching for Nazi gold in his house just before this, so he's not living in some one bedroom flat...
Ooh! Secret underground Nazi base!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 19:41:50
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2015/07/03 19:50:49
Subject: Re:WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
"We have real pest problems around here."
"Tell me about it, there's a Maus in my basement."
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
2015/07/03 20:35:24
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Ashiraya wrote: Taking his tank? Doesn't this violate some amendment somewhere?
How is he to defend his property against the tyrannical state now?
Not in Germany it doesn't.
In the US he'd have been allowed to keep it (as he should have been anyway, since they were pretty obviously just there because he was a collector, not for defense "against the tyrannical state."
Hopefully it ends up in a museum and not scrapped.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 21:09:07
Wyrmalla wrote: By cellar I assume they're talking about something with a ramp leading down into it. The guy clearly has money given that he has that hardware in his basement and had the authorities off searching for Nazi gold in his house just before this, so he's not living in some one bedroom flat...
Going by the (original, German, as linked by BBC) article, it was a pretty substantial villa: underground 'bunker' (then again, probably just a cellar; LEOs and journalists do so love to exaggerate these things), big driveway, statue(s) in the garden and so on. Dude was apparently pretty well-off.
2015/07/03 23:56:47
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Daemonhammer wrote: I find it rather disturbing and sad that they just took things off him that are worth at least a million euro, probably more depending on their state.
You don't get reimbursed when the government seize things that are illegal to own. It's like demanding to be reimbursed after they confiscated all your illegal drugs.
Ashiraya wrote: Taking his tank? Doesn't this violate some amendment somewhere?
How is he to defend his property against the tyrannical state now?
Not in Germany it doesn't.
In the US he'd have been allowed to keep it (as he should have been anyway, since they were pretty obviously just there because he was a collector, not for defense "against the tyrannical state."
Hopefully it ends up in a museum and not scrapped.
IIRC, if they worked, he would have to register them, but it depends on the state. Although if they weren't registered, I'm sure they would be seized.
Hopefully it ends up in a museum and not scrapped.
Sadly, under German law it will all likely be destroyed. That's the reason that a lot of collectors have been smuggling them out of country to sell in Poland, etc. Under German law it must be carved up, with all armor plates being cut, so that they offer no cover. The gun must be cut at the breech , and the barrel sawn off. I once saw the mess they made of a Panzer IV.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2015/07/04 06:43:30
Subject: Re:WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
Daemonhammer wrote: This is ridiculous. So not only are they pretty much stealing a fortune from him they are also going to destroy a piece of history?
Depends on if anyone sticks their neck out for it. Pv IV's are uncommon, but not rare in a modern sense. Panther's however are quite rare. If someone goes out to acquire it, they probably will, otherwise it'll be destroyed cause... What else is anyone going to do with it?
Why is it illegal to own anyway?
It's a tank... I'm sure there are plenty of reasonable ways one can say "you can't own that" when talking about a tank Especially a German Tank from WWII in German. They're not very proud of that time period over there Not to mention the German State is the German State, and he probably had no right to keep the tank in the first place.
That aside, I draw issues with 'private' collections on a moral level. History belongs to everyone. The tank, should it survive, belongs in a museum. Not a basement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote: He also had this anti-aircraft gun down there apparently.
This, while not as cool as a tank, is also quite a rare piece of memorabilia. In all likely hood it will be acquired by someone.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/04 10:03:27
This, while not as cool as a tank, is also quite a rare piece of memorabilia. In all likely hood it will be acquired by someone.
Not likely. Unless a Museum steps in, it will be scrapped. Why do you think it's rare? I mean, hell, Germany has been digging up Nazi dead bodies to destroy. What do you think they're gonna do with THIS?
Worse, you can't even bribe them with a high profile case like this. They were gonna scrap a Jagdtiger they found in a barn a few years ago, but someone paid 25 million in bribes to get it smuggled out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: There are. However;
-There are no laws against owning the vehicles in the US (the ammunition however and firing mechanisms, may be illegal or require dismantling)
Also, if you cross state lines with yours, you have to inform BATF in advance. Some states allow you to own the live gun, others are more restrictive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/04 12:52:12
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2015/07/04 12:54:57
Subject: WW2 Panther tank seized from German pensioner's cellar
That's... What I said? What do you think most countries do with these kinds of things? It's not just Germany. Unless some institution or body steps up and says "I'll take it" this stuff tends to get destroyed because the what else is it going to be used for?
As to the gun, from the picture it looks to be remarkably intact, and Flak 88s are popular in museums and collectors and not as common as some would like them to be. There's bound to be one somewhere that wants it. The Panther might not be so lucky. They're rare, but to my knowledge pretty much everyone who really wants one already has one.
Especially a German Tank from WWII in German. They're not very proud of that time period over there 
