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Played a couple of games now and the question has been raised about summoning and what can be summoned..

For example, temple guard warscroll states that a Slann can summon temple guard. Although do you require to have a "seed" unit of temple gaurds on the board in order to gain the summoning spell. My interpretation was that you would need to have a seed unit as that warscroll gives you access to that summoning ability?. Therefor in order to have the warscroll you need the unit on the board.

Others are arguing that you don't need the seed unit.

What's the general consensus?.

If this has already been discussed then I'd appreciate a redirect to the topic! Thanks!

There's no specific 'army list', nor does it say anywhere that you can only read warscrolls for stuff you have on the board.

If you have the Saurus Warriors, or Temple Guard models waiting off-board, then you should have a copy of the warscroll in front of you, which just says "slann wizards know this spell in addition to any others" - nowhere does it indicate that a unit is a requirement.

Seraphon are essentially the Order version of Daemons.

I think from the layout of the warscrolls they decided to put the summon spell with summoned unit to avoid listing the many units a caster like a slann has access to and not clutter it up with things you did not plan to summon. This would also give them the flexibility of creating new units that have the same keywords required by the spell without having to go through and update the rules for each of the units that can be summoned.

Nowhere in the rules for summoning does it say you need a unit of it already on the table and the spell specifically says all Slann know the spell. Assuming you have access to warscrolls without having the model on the table, if you have the warscroll and the models I don't see anything to stop you from summoning the new type unit.

I think this is going to be one of those things you just need to check with your opponent with before the start of the game with, but how the scrolls were release for the legacy factions as sort of an army book instead of discreet pages would make me lean to saying RAI they can summon them without a seed unit.

You don't need a unit on the table to summon another unit of its type.

The unit warscroll states if it can be summoned and who can summon it*.


*Pending any special rules on the wizard's warscroll.

Take it for what it's worth, but our GW had a demo session on Saturday. When I asked this question, I was told that yes, you do need to have the "seed" unit on the table in order for the caster to gain the summoning spell. This is why the entries for those spells are on the summonable unit's warscroll and not on the casters.

Jm's got the truth of it I think. It's how I'll run things in tournaments anyways.

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Jm's got the truth of it I think. It's how I'll run things in tournaments anyways.

Which helps balance it a little. Kill the steggadon, and I can't summon a 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:

Jm's got the truth of it I think. It's how I'll run things in tournaments anyways.

Which helps balance it a little. Kill the steggadon, and I can't summon a 2nd (and 3rd, and 4th).

Right.

Weve been playing with a wounds mechanic, and it makes the armies with summons choose very carefully.

Instead of a horde of your best unit, you find yourself taking a little of everything so you have more options for summoning. I do, with my TK's, anyways. It also greatly affects my spell casts, as I want to hurry and resummon my Tomb Guard before they all get killed and I lose the chance.

Another quick question on summoning. It says :

Models added to your army during the game (for example, through summoning, reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers.

Now after talking to a few mates we're undecided on the last line;

army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers.

The two answers we came up with we're.

1/ All summoned models already count as casualties.

2/ Only summoned models that are killed during the game count towards the end of game final percentage.

It all comes from the comma after the word 'army' . Which can change the whole meaning of the sentence

Number 2, I'd say. Number 1 doesn't really name any sense other than as an overly-close analysis if the text, which I feel the text itself doesn't support.

On the other hand, consider page 2, column 1. Para 4 states that the models you've deployed are your army, so clearly models to be summoned can't count.

Summoning models is giving you an advantage by providing additional troops mid-battle; the downside of that is if you bring additional troops on and get them killed, that's not going to be good for morale, and hence they count towards your casualty count. I've played other games which do the same thing.

Yeah, it's going to be #2- summoned minis count among your force's casualties, but not total.

That means that if you field Nagash all by his lonesome, summon up a horde of the undead, and one of those guys is killed, you are in danger of losing via minor conditions (since you've now suffered 100% or greater casualties).

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Yeah, it's going to be #2- summoned minis count among your force's casualties, but not total.

That means that if you field Nagash all by his lonesome, summon up a horde of the undead, and one of those guys is killed, you are in danger of losing via minor conditions (since you've now suffered 100% or greater casualties).

But if you need the summoning seed units on the table then Nagash Solo would not be able to summon anything... so perhaps that's why you do need seed units and it's not just summon anything you have a warscroll for... it's an aspect of the fabled "balance" we're all looking for.

Also undead summoned units are capped at the basic scroll so 10 skellies or 3 varghists. Sure nagash doubles it but its still not unlimited.
As to seed units i can see it both ways as scrolls contain all rules for the unit so with out the unit theres no spell but there wizards are told they know that spell as well as there own, personally i like the seed meathod as it seems fairer.(or balanced but that gets people of thread.☺).

 Weyrell wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Yeah, it's going to be #2- summoned minis count among your force's casualties, but not total.

That means that if you field Nagash all by his lonesome, summon up a horde of the undead, and one of those guys is killed, you are in danger of losing via minor conditions (since you've now suffered 100% or greater casualties).

But if you need the summoning seed units on the table then Nagash Solo would not be able to summon anything... so perhaps that's why you do need seed units and it's not just summon anything you have a warscroll for... it's an aspect of the fabled "balance" we're all looking for.

But you can summon greater Daemons- and it isn't possible for them to have 'seed units.'

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Weyrell wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Yeah, it's going to be #2- summoned minis count among your force's casualties, but not total.

That means that if you field Nagash all by his lonesome, summon up a horde of the undead, and one of those guys is killed, you are in danger of losing via minor conditions (since you've now suffered 100% or greater casualties).

But if you need the summoning seed units on the table then Nagash Solo would not be able to summon anything... so perhaps that's why you do need seed units and it's not just summon anything you have a warscroll for... it's an aspect of the fabled "balance" we're all looking for.

But you can summon greater Daemons- and it isn't possible for them to have 'seed units.'

What do you mean you can't have SEED units of greater Daemons. A single greater daemon is a unit. Be it GUO, LOC, BT, KOS. The only thing they got right in the daemon warsrolls is you can't summon any of the named characters. Although still nothing stopping you fielding more than one named character right from the start

I argue very much that you must have "Seeds" on the table. Warscrolls not in play? It seems dubious they still the spells to your casters.

As for Nagash, it's simple. Take a unit of skeletons with him. There's nothing stopping you.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I argue very much that you must have "Seeds" on the table. Warscrolls not in play? It seems dubious they still the spells to your casters.

As for Nagash, it's simple. Take a unit of skeletons with him. There's nothing stopping you.

My army is a Slann, lord of Change, and Nagash. How long will it take me to fill the table?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt, can you explain that - if you only have those 3 models, and if folks play that you do need a "seed" unit to summon more of it, what could you fill the table with?

Summoning is for chumps, anyway. Take Archaon and ten Chaos Lords. Roll ten D6. Get a Slave to Darkness unit for every 4+ you roll.
Every. Fething. Turn.


One Chaos Lord was mean enough: in three turns I called upon a unit of skull reapers and chaos Knights to come in FROM ANY TABLE EDGE, able to move and charge. Ow. Imagine doing that with ten. Summoning states you can't move and must appear a certain distance from the caster. Reinforcements just state they must come in from a table edge. Being as this is all before movement phase...I feel reinforcements are better than summoning. Far more powerful.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Summoning is for chumps, anyway. Take Archaon and ten Chaos Lords. Roll ten D6. Get a Slave to Darkness unit for every 4+ you roll.
Every. Fething. Turn.


One Chaos Lord was mean enough: in three turns I called upon a unit of skull reapers and chaos Knights to come in FROM ANY TABLE EDGE, able to move and charge. Ow. Imagine doing that with ten. Summoning states you can't move and must appear a certain distance from the caster. Reinforcements just state they must come in from a table edge. Being as this is all before movement phase...I feel reinforcements are better than summoning. Far more powerful.

Yep, very powerful.

In a game where we talk about what to bring, or can put down huge amounts on the table. Summoning is just another way to plop down models.

In a game where there is an upfront limit to what you bring, it really tips the scales in the favor of who summons more.

armies are made up of units from warscrolls, we are told to take the warscrolls we want in our army.

WARSCROLLS & UNITS
All models are described by warscrolls,
which provide all of the rules for using
them in the game. You will need warscrolls
for the models you want to use.

as such armies are not made up of all the warscrolls for your faction by default, we must pick some warscrolls to use to field those units.

so if you do not have the warscroll for an unit, you do not have the summon spell for that unit- as the summon spell comes from that warscroll.

just like if you do not have an unit you cannot use the abilites from that units warscroll without having the warscroll in your army for that unit.

so yes, raw you need to be using the units warscroll to be able to summon a unit, you surely cannot use abilities of units you have not taken.

 mikhaila wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Summoning is for chumps, anyway. Take Archaon and ten Chaos Lords. Roll ten D6. Get a Slave to Darkness unit for every 4+ you roll.
Every. Fething. Turn.


One Chaos Lord was mean enough: in three turns I called upon a unit of skull reapers and chaos Knights to come in FROM ANY TABLE EDGE, able to move and charge. Ow. Imagine doing that with ten. Summoning states you can't move and must appear a certain distance from the caster. Reinforcements just state they must come in from a table edge. Being as this is all before movement phase...I feel reinforcements are better than summoning. Far more powerful.

Yep, very powerful.

In a game where we talk about what to bring, or can put down huge amounts on the table. Summoning is just another way to plop down models.

In a game where there is an upfront limit to what you bring, it really tips the scales in the favor of who summons more.

Technically, there is an upfront limit: the size of your deployment zone. Which makes summoning all the worse, because it allows you to then fill your opponent's deployment zone AND any neutral space. Granted, they can try to do the same to you. But the Chaos Lord 4+ thing can't be Unbound the way a summoning spell can.

Lizard men can summon the named character CHAKAx


So if you need a "seed" does that mean you should have two models who are both the same named character? I don't think so reason why i believe you can just summon anything

Since there is no limit on what warscrolls you bring, and no requirement to field any unit with a warscroll (you deploy alternating units), the requirement that you can only summon units based on deployed units seems arbitrary and not rule based.

It is balanced? Who knows? The whole game is very informal and needs a lot of cooperation anyway.

There is no seed unit. The rules do not say this. Summoning isn't a big deal.

Everyone cried about it when 7th came out and how strong daemons would be. That never happened.

If nagash is such a strong dick then just ask your friend not to use him.

People can run five knights in 40k if they want to be an ass. This is a solid ruleset for friends looking to play really fun games. Summoning is fine if people aren't always looking for ways to abuse it

From another thread

 Kriswall wrote:
Per the core rules...

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army - this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

My take is that if you have units in reserve that you have not deployed, then their war scrolls are 'available'.

So, if you show up with Zombies and a Necromancer, leave the Zombies in reserve but deploy the Necromancer... you will have the ability to summon Zombies as you have them in reserves. You wouldn't be able to summon anything else and you wouldn't be able to summon more than one unit of Zombies because you have nothing else in reserves.

Reserves basically means "everything you brought to the store/club/your buddy's house but didn't deploy".

Sums up my opinion exactly

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I argue very much that you must have "Seeds" on the table. Warscrolls not in play? It seems dubious they still the spells to your casters.

As for Nagash, it's simple. Take a unit of skeletons with him. There's nothing stopping you.

They don't grant the spell that I can tell. There is nothing in the wording on the warscrolls that support the claim. The only evidence to the contrary is how it was played by someone at a GW store...we all know they make mistakes. All the scrolls I've read simply states that all casters in the appropriate army know the summoning spell and then get specific on how many can be summoned. Putting it on the scrolls seems to me to be a method of organization only, since you're going to need said scroll anyway when the unit is brought on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
From another thread

 Kriswall wrote:
Per the core rules...

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army - this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

My take is that if you have units in reserve that you have not deployed, then their war scrolls are 'available'.

So, if you show up with Zombies and a Necromancer, leave the Zombies in reserve but deploy the Necromancer... you will have the ability to summon Zombies as you have them in reserves. You wouldn't be able to summon anything else and you wouldn't be able to summon more than one unit of Zombies because you have nothing else in reserves.

Reserves basically means "everything you brought to the store/club/your buddy's house but didn't deploy".

Sums up my opinion exactly

You've always needed to have models for the things you summoned. Why couldn't you have several units of zombies or anything else in reserve?

I read leaked restrictions and there was a restriction of something like a maximum of 4 warscrolls per 25 wounds fielded.

So taking all possible warscrolls is not an option.
You take (and field) units you can also summon and you might even take a few warscrolls extra (of units to summon), but not a lot and not all anyway.

And getting extra models/wounds by any means in A LOT more balanced in AoS then it ever was in WHFB, because it has a downside because fielding more options (to wound) for your opponent has risks, especially if what you add/summon is easier to take down.

With what i have read up to now (also the upcoming restrictions) it seems the best choice is to only summon elite units (hard to kill).

 Gridge wrote:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I argue very much that you must have "Seeds" on the table. Warscrolls not in play? It seems dubious they still the spells to your casters.

As for Nagash, it's simple. Take a unit of skeletons with him. There's nothing stopping you.

They don't grant the spell that I can tell. There is nothing in the wording on the warscrolls that support the claim. The only evidence to the contrary is how it was played by someone at a GW store...we all know they make mistakes. All the scrolls I've read simply states that all casters in the appropriate army know the summoning spell and then get specific on how many can be summoned. Putting it on the scrolls seems to me to be a method of organization only, since you're going to need said scroll anyway when the unit is brought on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jokerkd wrote:
From another thread

 Kriswall wrote:
Per the core rules...

"You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army. Count the number of models in your army - this may come in useful later. Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand."

My take is that if you have units in reserve that you have not deployed, then their war scrolls are 'available'.

So, if you show up with Zombies and a Necromancer, leave the Zombies in reserve but deploy the Necromancer... you will have the ability to summon Zombies as you have them in reserves. You wouldn't be able to summon anything else and you wouldn't be able to summon more than one unit of Zombies because you have nothing else in reserves.

Reserves basically means "everything you brought to the store/club/your buddy's house but didn't deploy".

Sums up my opinion exactly

You've always needed to have models for the things you summoned. Why couldn't you have several units of zombies or anything else in reserve?

You can. He is saying that any models you bring, that you don't deploy at the start of the game, are in reserves

Yes, you can summon anything you brought, but you also (will) need the Warscroll for it IMO.
And you may not just take all Warscrolls, the number of Warscrolls will be restricted as i understand it.
And that should balance it all out quite well.