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Love is the death of duty so.....can Astartes fall in love, is it possible? For that matter can Grey Knights also fall in love, since they are like super astartes and all that?
What setting would they be in that they would ever be considering this? Consider that most of their life is, if not completely, focused in a monastic order of combat. Even forgetting the hypno-therapy they undergo and careful control of bodily hormones and biological assets, consider the social situation where an Astartes would be able to focus on something other than being the Emperor's weapon.
"Russ - This guy is basically werewolf Dick Cheney. No pity at all."
-Vulgar, because it was too funny not to steal
I'm pretty sure any fluff that makes space marines anything less that faceless, emotionless killing machines is old fluff. They should just call the next book, CODEX:NECRONS ASTARTES.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/06 23:33:34
"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.
I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.
And a Marine breaching walls with pelvic thrusts does make for amusing mental images...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 04:01:46
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
chazz huggins wrote: I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.
That there, is clearly the Iron Snakes' recruitment propaganda.
As for the Salamanders -- yes they have families, but if a Salamander marine is the only male of his family, well, his family line is going to end right there. Serving the Emperor or wetting your willies, your choice, mate.
The closest thing would be Ragnar in the space wolves books, but that didn't lead to anything at all.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
Astartes are chemically and physically castrated ,and fed a diet of various chemicals and hormones to make sure they're only interested in war.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Yes, but not that kind of relationship. Salamanders still maintain some family ties, but they are still superhuman demi-gods without any human emotions.
Space marines have their psychological makeup totally altered. They are, in human terms of the word, incapable of love. They may still have emotions they call love, but it won't be anything that a normal emotionally stable human would call love. It has been twisted into a total fanatical dedication to their duties, the Emperor, and their brothers. In the Salamanders this can be extended to caring for their old family/clan, but they wouldn't be the nice great uncle who plays with the kids necessarily. He'd be the adviser, a solver of disputes, and dispenser of justice.
On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.
With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I would think that this is entirely possible. After all the main problem with Space Marines is that they are superhuman, not posthuman.
What I mean by that is a Marine is simply a man x 100. All his human traits are enhanced, not just his capacity for physical violence. The Hours Heresy is illustrative of the fact that not only are Marines the pinnacle of human evolution, but also that our failings as humans can never be erased or forgotten. People seem to forget that there is a large and deeply involving philosophy behind Space Marines and Chaos. I think that GW had struck upon a very real and worthwhile human dilemma back in the day and a lot of the campy fun was there to alleviate the seriousness of that topic. Nowadays we forget entirely that 40k can be viewed in a very "psychological" way and the gun porn kind of takes over.
If you really look at the story of the Imperium and Chaos you can see a treasure trove of worthwhile and very valid debates. You have all these heavy metaphysical concepts dealing with the nature of man, fate, faith, and war, pretty much any malady that has plagued humanity and its all so cunningly wrapped up in this blanket of hyper grit, tongue in cheek humour and over the top violence....
Really 40k is a vehicle for the human dialogue and it allows us to explore our most villified faults and shortcomings in a way that skips the guilt and self censorship. We can very easily discuss exterminatus knowing we argue within the realms of science fiction. Its not so easy to talk about the Holocaust. Any good science fiction does this. Good writing does this period! This transportive effect is the mark of expert storytelling. We can identify with losing our parents at a young age because Harry Potter is a character we can relate to. We can take that painful journey ourselves, through Harry, and be honest about what we find (if we want).
Can a Space Marine love? Yes, unequivocally so. Perhaps that story, more than any other in the 41st Millennium, deserves to be told.
Love and sex can be separate entities... The question was love, not lust.
If the marine can feel compassion for his brothers, there's no reason he can't love other people as well. It may not be the same that we feel as modern day humans, if they're dosed up on all kinds of chemicals and alterations, but it could exist.
If jealousy, pride, anger and excitement are possible, care and love, even if it's on a family based level, certainly would be.
And without delving into those parts of the Internet, they could always have fun with one another if physical limitation with humans is an obstacle. I suspect in 38,000 years, folks are less bothered by that sort of thing.
I continue to hold that a Space Marine would not feel romantic love. There's a difference between having a deep affection for something or someone, or having a great interest in something or someone, and what seems to have been the real question, whether or not Space Marines could feel romantic love.
I submit that they can't, as they were designed for war and war alone, and that is a distraction from war.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Melissia wrote: I submit that they can't, as they were designed for war and war alone, and that is a distraction from war.
Honestly, if they can go around and feel love, then that is just another part where they are allegedly not optimised for their role.
For example, according to some sources their bolters are identical in firepower to bolters any human could use - but why bother making a massive, incredibly strong and stable firing platform if you won't use that to give it appropriate firepower? It'd be like putting a .50 HMG in the turret of an Abrams.
So I would not be surprised if love was within their capacity.
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Eunuchs don't make terrible soldiers......generals such as narses and the guards of harems were eunuchs...admittedly testosterone is beneficial but they could gain them from more esoteric means.
In the iron snakes book the brother involved used a dog because of its abilities to detect the dark eldar plaguing the star cluster he defended.
I can't remember love in the brothers of the snake book...the women is merely a plot device to highlight the superhuman aspects of astartes and their godlike manner (she ages between stories ect)
This whole discussion is heresy. You might as well ask if astartes ever go gay for their 'brothers'...that lead to a blamming of biblical proportions from the dakka commisariat.
'an open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred.'
Marines are capable of emotion. All their bromance is for the emperor though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote: This whole discussion is heresy. You might as well ask if astartes ever go gay for their 'brothers'...that lead to a blamming of biblical proportions from the dakka commisariat.
I don't really see how it's any different than contemplating them getting off base with anyone else.
The only biggie to me, is relationships within an army/workplace can get very complicated very quickly, and potentially jeopardise the efficiency of their unit.
Unless you mean that there's a Dakka specific adverse reaction to this topic, akin to "why are there no girl space marines", and I apologise for taking the point seriously.
I doubt or rather hope there is few homophobes on dakka....
I should be more clear!!! Anything that detracts from the faceless superhuman killing machines with a flawed nature and brings them back to our level (human) would induce rage of such massive levels.....such a relationship within the chapter (and it would probably have to be homosexual...unless you find a space wolf chapter serf..the only female serfs I recall from post heresy black library books) and add a nuance that could be interesting but very difficult for the geebubz store manager to explain to little timmy over the AoS table
Would be too multi-dimensional for space marines!!!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/07 17:49:08
'an open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred.'
Pretty sure all the energy involved in having the "more human" emotions is channeled into their trigger-fingers and fight-or-fight reflex responses (there is no "flight" for Space Marines).
All to make them better killers.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
It might have turned out different if ole' empy had kept a copy of plutarch 'on sparta' or knew epamindonas's sacred band. They had interested methods of motivating individual soldiers through very close bonds...
Space marines might have been A LOT more friendly with each other.
'an open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred.'
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Hyglar's Hellraiser wrote: Eunuchs don't make terrible soldiers......generals such as narses and the guards of harems were eunuchs...admittedly testosterone is beneficial but they could gain them from more esoteric means.
They do infact make terrible soldiers. Especially if you would be castrating them before puberty. It leads to significantly less muscle growth. It also makes the subject far less aggressive. Not traits you want in soldiers.
Guards =/= soldiers. The Eunuch was only suited for a specific role where you don't want your guards messing with the ladies they are guarding. Its a sacrifice of physical ability for a specific desired quality. And sometimes it was used for a cultural reason and because the downsides weren't understood or not important. A general doesn't need his nades to be a good general, but a frontline fighter will need that muscle mass and aggression.
To use a contemporary example, the Unsullied in GoT would actually be worse soldiers for being eunuchs. At least they are accurately portraying their low muscle mass in the show. They would be better off simply not castrating them, but doing everything else in their brutal training regime. They would be stronger soldiers for it, well worth the minor inconvenience of them having sex lives.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Agreed with the above in principle for a warrior...a soldier needs to follow orders and be a controlled individual...so maybe a eunuch wouldn't be terrible...
Also it falls apart for a post-human...the intelligence, self control would be more important than the original biological tools for muscle mass...those are replaced or augmented by biological processes...a eunuch would make a good astartes maybe.
BUT this is theoretical. In reality the way the astartes are chosen having natural muscle mass and aggression would be very useful!
'an open mind is like a fortress with its gate unbarred.'
