Astartes love

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**darkcloak**

I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.

Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.

**Grey Templar**

An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.

**Hyglar's Hellraiser**

Dunno. You seen a saturday night out in British town?

Maybe I'm hanging round with the wrong sort

**Psienesis**

Grey Templar wrote:
An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.

You don't spend a lot of time around teenagers, I take it?

**Grey Templar**

darkcloak wrote:
I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.

Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.

Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
An intact man is just as capable of following orders. Especially if he's been drilled and trained since he was a child. Puberty isn't all that tumultuous for humans relative to other animals. Its not like we become raging bulls or something.

You don't spend a lot of time around teenagers, I take it?

I do. Some of them are a little crazy, but they're far from being totally out of control. Then again, they've largely had stable home lives. Which reinforces my point that having stability and discipline can overcome any hormonal turmoil from puberty. We aren't raging bulls that will literally beat themselves bloody against a wall because there is an ovulating female on the other side.

**Psienesis**

Not in the overwhelming biological urge to procreate, no. However, there's plenty of other things teens channel that energy towards. We generally call these things "Dumb Things I Did as a Kid" which are now, in the modern era, documented and preserved on YouTube. Thank God I predate the modern internet.

**DoomShakaLaka**

I opened this thread expecting it to be a rant about Ultramarine and Grey Knight Players.

Much disappoint.

**Psienesis**

I opened this thread expecting to read about Blood Angels and Space Wolves sharing a sauna and a hot oil bath while performing maintenance on their guns.

So disappoint.

**Selym**

Ashiraya wrote:
That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.

I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.

And a Marine breaching walls with pelvic thrusts does make for amusing mental images...

The adeptus hornicus: Thrusting themselves into the fray!

**darkcloak**

The whole idea of Marines turning Chaos is predicated on the fact that they do in fact have emotions.

What? So an Ultramarine can get all worked up about killing Tyranids, but somehow can't feel love in any capacity? That makes no sense.

This is why Marines turn traitor. They are not "killing machines" they are ubermensch in every sense of the word. Heightenened physical attributes, heightened mental and emotional attributes too. Space Marines don't undergoe years of indoctrination because they are stone cold killers, they suffer through that so they become stone cold. Chaplains aren't just there to say grace after dinner, they are the therapists of the chapter.

Just because GW thinks we are all bearded teens with no concept of the human condition doesn't make it true. Just because BL hasn't had the balls to explore these deep topics doesn't mean they aren't there.

I for one would really enjoy a book about a Space Marine falling in love. It would certainly be better than Space Wolves hijacking Thunderhawks for joy rides!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if Horus didn't love his father then why did he rebel? You can't feel shunned by something to which you have no emotional connection.

**Selym**

An Ultramarine Love Story by C.S.Goto

"Still a better love story than Twilight, but not by much" - Dakka

A Blood Angel Love Story by C.S.Goto

"Literally Twilight in Spess" - 1d4chan

**gudtymer**

Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.

**darkcloak**

I can't think of a better reason to become an 8 foot tall living weapon.

**Hyglar's Hellraiser**

Someone on dakka pointed out that astartes 'are made' when they are in their teens....the process somehow stunts and shapes their psyches (and in the better HH books I think this comes out...)

A space marines psyche is a mix of brutalised child, possibly of feral or hive world origin which may effect the cultural component of love. Ontop of that they are brainwashed and controlled 24-7. Growing up on violent and dangerous death worlds...taking part in selections where they witness unspeakable violence, brainwashed, more violence, indoctrinated into a cult, having their body image shattered...

So ask if they fall in love is interesting....but maybe is a push for a marine. From this thread (which I initially dismissed as heresy leads me to ask the question how they don't all fall to chaos through all their emotions exploding at some point in these long hideous lives.
('cept ultramarines and salamanders who seem to have the best of both worlds)

**chazz huggins**

Furyou Miko wrote:
chazz huggins wrote:
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.

Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!

Well the book is called Brothers of the Snake granted it is an old book but it still exists http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/1844165477/R35PMMKUIXPWUW/ref=mw_dp_cr/184-4394028-5908128?cursor=1&sort=rd

**Grey Templar**

chazz huggins wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
chazz huggins wrote:
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.

Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!

Well the book is called Brothers of the Snake granted it is an old book but it still exists http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/1844165477/R35PMMKUIXPWUW/ref=mw_dp_cr/184-4394028-5908128?cursor=1&sort=rd

No such thing happened in that book.

It happened in a webcomic, and it was making fun of people who try and rationalize marines having families.

**chazz huggins**

Plus Slaanesh marines do it every chance they get

**Grey Templar**

But thats Chaos. They can undo all the stuff preventing a marine from being reproductively viable.

**King Pariah**

Grey Templar wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.

Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.

Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.

Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.

And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.

Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...

**Furyou Miko**

gudtymer wrote:Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.

The truth is that due to their lifestyle, if nothing else, a Marine is far more likely to feel love - romantic or otherwise - for another Marine than they are to any of the human women they will encounter in their lives. Simply put, they don't stick around for long enough to form lasting emotional bonds with anyone who isn't travelling with them. There's the potential for a relationship to form with a Chapter Serf, but from what we've seen the Marines are generally barely aware of their serfs and treat them as part of the furniture.

chazz huggins wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
chazz huggins wrote:
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.

Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!

Well the book is called Brothers of the Snake granted it is an old book but it still exists http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/1844165477/R35PMMKUIXPWUW/ref=mw_dp_cr/184-4394028-5908128?cursor=1&sort=rd

Yes, well, unlike you, I have read Brothers of the Snake... and its hardly an old book!

**Dust**

In a real world context love is an amorphous and varied thing. The word love itself is often as a blunted form of many other feelings. I could imagine that Astartes could could feel caring, affection, and emotional intimacy... or at least the closest thing to it... with other humans and fellow marines. But love in the genuine sense; in the pit of your stomach, blind to the world sense; also demands a staggering amount of time and attention. Whether knowingly devoted or not the mind wanders to thoughts of the one desired which I think would be beyond most Astartes. Even humans can be prevented from falling in love simply by keeping busy... and its easy to end up caring about the people you see and work with on a daily basis but love is a much heavier commitment.

And its hard to really someone when you're fighting new enemies every damn day.

**Wyzilla**

Furyou Miko wrote:
gudtymer wrote:Thanks for all the great points from both sides. I dont think there is a right answer just different points of view. I started this topic not as a joke, but rather a way to get ideas on coming up with fluff for a custom astartes chapter/force. While i do consider astartes killing machines, i dont like to think of them as one dimensional cardboard cutouts. I wasnt trying to make some romeo n juliet or teen lovey dub crap. Rather I was trying to get ideas on how else astartes backrounds and motivations can be influenced/affected by women/females. Thanks again for all the great discussions.

The truth is that due to their lifestyle, if nothing else, a Marine is far more likely to feel love - romantic or otherwise - for another Marine than they are to any of the human women they will encounter in their lives. Simply put, they don't stick around for long enough to form lasting emotional bonds with anyone who isn't travelling with them. There's the potential for a relationship to form with a Chapter Serf, but from what we've seen the Marines are generally barely aware of their serfs and treat them as part of the furniture.

chazz huggins wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
chazz huggins wrote:
I've personally never read any such fluff but a friend of mine has told me it exist, from what he told me there is a chapter that allows its marines to have families, he told me he read some story about an Iron snake who impregnated some girl on a feudal world. From what I understand that was the least grimm dark thing black library ever published he had a dog companion.

Your mate told you wrong. They never have sex, and he doesn't have a dog!

Well the book is called Brothers of the Snake granted it is an old book but it still exists http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/1844165477/R35PMMKUIXPWUW/ref=mw_dp_cr/184-4394028-5908128?cursor=1&sort=rd

Yes, well, unlike you, I have read Brothers of the Snake... and its hardly an old book!

While Chaos, I do know that the Blood Gorgons keep pleasure slaves.

**Finlandiaperkele**

Not in the traditional (procreational) mean of the word. They can feel empathy and responsibility, but not actually "love" for anyone, due to all the mental conditioning and indoctrination that makes them Astartes.

But some (maybe even the most) Chapters allow (and usually encourage)the Astartes to keep in connection with their families, but this is propably more about diminishing their chance of turning heretic.

**Ignatius**

Honestly if I were in charge of creating a Space Marine Chapter I would recruit only those who were sexually interested in the same sex, that is, homosexual- then I would ensure that the chapter consisted of 500 couples of Astartes.

Plenty of reasons for this, and I cite the success of the Theban Sacred Band in Classical Greece following the end of the Peloponnesian War as my explanation to why.

Essentially, when thrown into combat, you will fight tooth and nail for your best friends. However the idea is that you would fight even harder for your lover.

Does it translate directly into Space Marines? Maybe not, but I feel that the benefits it would bring- regardless of how small- would be enough to implement it.

**Lord Blackscale**

Psienesis wrote:
Thank God I predate the modern internet.

Exalted!

**Grey Templar**

King Pariah wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.

Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.

Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.

Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.

And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.

Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...

Does that somehow invalidate the point? No its doesn't. Its perfectly reasonable for someone who has gone through, and continually goes through, the trauma a marine goes through to not be right in the head, from a normal human's perspective.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Ashiraya wrote:
That sounds somewhat implausible, not least because sleeping with a man strong enough to crush your car (and not much lighter than it either) sounds... hazardous.

I mean seriously, those pelvic thrusts. He could take down most walls with those. It does sound harmful. Comparable to a jackhammer.

But there are some wicked creatures capable of taking such punishment, right? Other space marines! There is nothing preventing them from touching each other's magical horn (Kinda cartoonish NSFW, for cartoonish violence and Narwhal/Horse action

). Beside, every one else hate space marines, so sure they must stick to their owns

. Sure, they will not put their Willies into Twinkles (Kinda NSFW again, animated genitalia from Swedish cartoon for kids), but that was the Emperor's will when he decided every space marine should be gay. I mean male. I think it was to prevent them from having babies (surprisingly SFW for a video about making babies, hairy animated buttock and mass baby expulsion), because they would not have enough nurse for them all.

As for love, sure marines can have spicy bromance. But basically everyone they know is within their own chapter. A story about two marines falling in love during Deathwatch duty, being separated and brainwashed after the end of their duty, and then meeting again on the battlefield and feeling an incomprehensible connexion could be pretty fun

.

**King Pariah**

Grey Templar wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
darkcloak wrote:
I think it's awfully silly to say that a Marine can turn to Chaos because of anger or hatred or feeling betrayed, but he cannot feel other human emotions.

Its all or nothing. You can't say Horus didn't love his daddy.

Given that there are humans who are incapable of feeling specific emotions(sociopaths) its far from silly to say a marine can't feel a certain emotion. Or at least can't feel that emotion in the same context a human might feel it. A marine might be able to love, but not in any way a human would call love.

Ugh, I hate the media increasingly everyday... A sociopath doesn't feel empathy, remorse nor guilt (also doesn't care for the rules of society and generally will willingly break such rules giving an impression of being morally and socially irresponsible - most common with the dumber ones). A psychopath is/was one who shares all the attributes of a sociopath but also cannot feel emotions, a certain set of emotions or feel emotions in a normal manner.

And both terms are "antiquated" effective since the release of DSM-V. Sociopath is absorbed within the category of Antisocial personality disorder. Pretty sure psychopath is as well though it might still be used in a court of law.

Sorry, it irks me a bit when people use these terms, and it irks me a lot when these terms are used incorrectly to the point I wish their was a single entity that represented the entirety of the media whom I could beat with a 2x4 with some nails through it and concertina wire wrapped around it...

Does that somehow invalidate the point? No its doesn't. Its perfectly reasonable for someone who has gone through, and continually goes through, the trauma a marine goes through to not be right in the head, from a normal human's perspective.

Eh, I was going off topic. My apologies to the OP

**Furyou Miko**

Ignatius wrote:Honestly if I were in charge of creating a Space Marine Chapter I would recruit only those who were sexually interested in the same sex, that is, homosexual- then I would ensure that the chapter consisted of 500 couples of Astartes.

All I'll say to that is: Good luck finding that many twelve-year-olds who know what kind of sex they like.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:As for love, sure marines can have spicy bromance. But basically everyone they know is within their own chapter. A story about two marines falling in love during Deathwatch duty, being separated and brainwashed after the end of their duty, and then meeting again on the battlefield and feeling an incomprehensible connexion could be pretty fun .

Instant bestseller. Could call it Thrifty Shades of Murder.

**dusara217**

gudtymer wrote:
Love is the death of duty so.....can Astartes fall in love, is it possible? For that matter can Grey Knights also fall in love, since they are like super astartes and all that?

Salamanders, as I recall, have families and wives

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
Don't the Salamanders have relationships? Or is that old fluff?

On sex and attraction: Marines are not castrated in any form as there is no evidence of this anywhere. This would actually be counter productive as it would reduce their testosterone levels, eunuchs would make terrible soldiers. If anything they have greatly enhanced hormone levels. That said, their sex drive has likely been hijacked both mentally and physically to be channeled into aggression and combat. They would have the worst case of ED ever. Even if a marine were able to have sex, it wouldn't result in any children. All the chemical treatments and gene-therapy have almost certainly rendered them completely sterile. Their genetic makeup is no longer human. So because of this, a marine isn't going to have any attraction for the opposite sex. Ragnar was indeed more a curiosity and head knowledge, not any physical desire.

With Chaos, all this goes out the window of course.

So, what you're saying is... Marines love BDSM?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
I would think that this is entirely possible. After all the main problem with Space Marines is that they are superhuman, not posthuman.

What I mean by that is a Marine is simply a man x 100. All his human traits are enhanced, not just his capacity for physical violence. The Hours Heresy is illustrative of the fact that not only are Marines the pinnacle of human evolution, but also that our failings as humans can never be erased or forgotten. People seem to forget that there is a large and deeply involving philosophy behind Space Marines and Chaos. I think that GW had struck upon a very real and worthwhile human dilemma back in the day and a lot of the campy fun was there to alleviate the seriousness of that topic. Nowadays we forget entirely that 40k can be viewed in a very "psychological" way and the gun porn kind of takes over.

If you really look at the story of the Imperium and Chaos you can see a treasure trove of worthwhile and very valid debates. You have all these heavy metaphysical concepts dealing with the nature of man, fate, faith, and war, pretty much any malady that has plagued humanity and its all so cunningly wrapped up in this blanket of hyper grit, tongue in cheek humour and over the top violence....

Really 40k is a vehicle for the human dialogue and it allows us to explore our most villified faults and shortcomings in a way that skips the guilt and self censorship. We can very easily discuss exterminatus knowing we argue within the realms of science fiction. Its not so easy to talk about the Holocaust. Any good science fiction does this. Good writing does this period! This transportive effect is the mark of expert storytelling. We can identify with losing our parents at a young age because Harry Potter is a character we can relate to. We can take that painful journey ourselves, through Harry, and be honest about what we find (if we want).

Can a Space Marine love? Yes, unequivocally so. Perhaps that story, more than any other in the 41st Millennium, deserves to be told.

exalted

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I seriously wish GW would change the target audience...

chazz huggins wrote:Plus Slaanesh marines do it every chance they get

Slaaneshi Marines do more fething than half the galaxy combined. They really oughta make a realistic novel about those guys.

Also, am I the only one who wants to see a novel wherein a Space Marine takes paramours, but ends up killing most of them when he engages in vaginal intercourse? I mean, seriously, that would actually make sense. For instance, a Brother-Sergeant spends some of his off-time with a Chapter Serf (in a Chapter where Serfs are like dirt), and then said Serf turns up in a supply closet with a shattered pelvis, and refuses to divulge how it happened (if she survived). This would be an excellent way for said Space Marine to relieve some of the stress of constantly being hyped-up on chems and constantly training and fighting (the "afterglow" effect, and all that).