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I know its been discussed to death, but I still cant believe this... I'm just putting together a list using Codex: Space Marines, and I can't believe that this list is legal at 1750 points.

Gladius Strike Force

Captain
Chaplain

6 x 5 Man Tacticals (bolters) - re-roll 1s To Hit throughout the game, and re-roll misses once with Tac Doc (or more with Ultras)
2 x 5 Man Command Squads (bolters) - re-roll 1s To Hit throughout - 2 Attacks
2 x 5 Man Assault Squads (bolter & chainsword) - add Flamers if you have the points (maybe in a pod)
2 x 5 Man Devastator Squads (with Lascannons) - [re-rolling failed Hits (Dev Doc), and re-rolling failed To Pens (IF CT)]
3 x 8 Man Sniper Scout Squads (MC Hunters, deploying last exactly where you need them)

Im actually going Imperial Fist for the constant bolter re-roll of 1s, but mainly for the Tank Hunter on Devs, but Ultramarines is probably more sensible with 4 turns minimum of re-rolls

And now the fun bit, 12 Free Razorbacks (normally costing 660 points) - upgraded at 20 points each with 8 x Assault Cannons, and 4 x LasPlas. At 1850+ add some blinding Landspeeder storms, add more Lascannons, SB, upgrade your Captain for the Orbital Bombardment, etc.

I know they aren't exactly Baneblades, but even so, 12 fairly capable "light tanks" and 86 basically BS5 bolter T4/AP3 marines, all moving and firing into rapid fire range is quite nice, especially with everything Objective Secured. Weight of dice has always worked in 40K, and MSU has always been a handful, but both with Obsec, this is just nuts to face surely.

Razorbacks are overcosted to begin with. It's just a bunch of underpowered stuff brought to levels they can compete with OP stuff. It's a fair amount of razors - I'd givem all Lazplas. I'd also give each tac grav cannons at the cost of some of those scouts.

Personally - I think you are best off giving all your units free drop pods. 5 man tacs with GC and combi plasma/melta. ASM squads with tri flamers. You get less "free" points but you get a stronger army IMO. Also you can get free DP for some dreads too.

Oooft.

LasPlas are nice, but as Im facing AP4 and Hordes mainly I tend to go with more AssCans.

I have lists for Tacs having HBs, Lascannons and Gravs, but at 210 points for 6 Gravcannons for this 1750 game, Im going all bolters and more squads. I may do drop pod list, as I have 7 Pods, so Flamer Assaults, 5xMelta Command Squads, etc, but for just for boots, bolters and big guns, this list is very sweet, and a lot for an opponent to handle. I just cant believe we can now get 12 x AssCan or LasPlas Razors for 20 points each and 80+ Obsec 5BS Marines.

That is a brutal amount of free Razorbacks. I don't know of many lists that could spread out enough firepower to kill everything by the end of turn 5(not to mention that you'll be shooting back).

Yeah, it is brutal. Im thinking of going second, and putting half the force down on one half of the table, and moving up and firing with EVERYTHING, which will pretty much wipe out or seriously damage half their force, in Turn 1/2.

Never mind small Death Stars, this is a Death Galaxy.

You could go Red Scorpions for the free Apoth in each tac squad and rerolls to pinning/morale checks

Also, question...Being that you're using the gladius and the two battle companies, won't you get a tac doctrine for the company and all three doctrines for the strike force? Are you allowed to use 2 tacs, 1 dev, and 1 assault with this formation? I haven't seen anything that says you can't.

 MisterPerkins wrote:
You could go Red Scorpions for the free Apoth in each tac squad and rerolls to pinning/morale checks

Also, question...Being that you're using the gladius and the two battle companies, won't you get a tac doctrine for the company and all three doctrines for the strike force? Are you allowed to use 2 tacs, 1 dev, and 1 assault with this formation? I haven't seen anything that says you can't.

Red scoprions are not in the adept astartes codex so no you can't do that.


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 Nostromo 69 wrote:
LasPlas are nice, but as Im facing AP4 and Hordes mainly I tend to go with more AssCans.

I have lists for Tacs having HBs, Lascannons and Gravs, but at 210 points for 6 Gravcannons for this 1750 game, Im going all bolters and more squads. I may do drop pod list, as I have 7 Pods, so Flamer Assaults, 5xMelta Command Squads, etc, but for just for boots, bolters and big guns, this list is very sweet, and a lot for an opponent to handle. I just cant believe we can now get 12 x AssCan or LasPlas Razors for 20 points each and 80+ Obsec 5BS Marines.

AP 4 hordes I'd go HB or Plasma Cannon. Also if facing hordes why not just leave the razors with TL HB? is one more possible kill worth 20 points?

AssCannons are a LOT better than heavy bolters, and the LasPlas are for the hard targets that you always get, horde or mech, to help out the Las Devs. The twin linked plasmas on the LasPlas is fairly handy too, especially a few of them in rapid fire range! For softer targets, 80 odd effectively WS5 bolters help deal some damage out...

the lasplas is a trap. i think twin linking the lascannons would give you more from your tanks since most of those lascannon will be put to work on anti-AV duty where those plasma shots will probably just bounce off anyways.

also for the assault cannons i agree that they're much better than heavy bolters. but i think the points you are spending on them would be better spent on something else. Maybe a dual heavy flamer ironclad with extra armor in a free drop pod which comes to 160 exactly

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
AssCannons are a LOT better than heavy bolters, and the LasPlas are for the hard targets that you always get, horde or mech, to help out the Las Devs. The twin linked plasmas on the LasPlas is fairly handy too, especially a few of them in rapid fire range! For softer targets, 80 odd effectively WS5 bolters help deal some damage out...

Not denying that AC is better than a HB - but 1 is free and 1 cost resources.

Consider this - hb razor and 5 man tac with a plama cannon. Costs the same as a 5 man tac with no heavy with an AC razor. It does about twice the damage to hordes at + 12 range. Or you could take a flamer and a HB - costs the same - wrecks hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rx8Speed wrote:
the lasplas is a trap. i think twin linking the lascannons would give you more from your tanks since most of those lascannon will be put to work on anti-AV duty where those plasma shots will probably just bounce off anyways.

also for the assault cannons i agree that they're much better than heavy bolters. but i think the points you are spending on them would be better spent on something else. Maybe a dual heavy flamer ironclad with extra armor in a free drop pod which comes to 160 exactly

My experience says otherwise - used to put TL LC razors up against laz plas razors for years - I did not win many games like this. A twinlinked plasma gun alone in many ways is already better than a twin linked lazcannon - 2 AP2 shots compared to 1 - plus you get a laz cannon too! It's an obvious choice IMO.

If you put a heavy weapon like a Plasma Cannon with Tacticals, then you limit your mobility, i.e. moving around the board and firing Rapid Fire weapons is great, but it makes Heavy weapons snapshot or not able to fire at all. Hence investing the points into vehicle weapons which can move with you and for example fire an AssCan at full BS, which imo. It means I can have 12 AssCan & LasPlas tanks AND lots of mobile infantry that arent hamstrung by heavy weapons. If I was making a firing line then I would consider 6 tanks, bikes, and and put GravCannons in the units, but you lose the strategic versatility and maneuverability.

I agree with you on the LasPlas being better than TL-LC though, especially nowadays with all the re-rolls to hit, and I do like Rapid Fire Plasma guns from a few tanks, then scooting off and then having 4 LC shots at something on the other side of the board. Versatility and Mobility is the key.


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Update

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Well I wont be fielding that again. It is way too powerful, and I feel dirty My oponent was an experienced player, and a top bloke, and he was fielding a VERY strong Decurion list, with 6 wraiths, spyder, scarabs, c'tan, monolith, warriors, immortals, tomb blades and lychguard. He has won 6 out of 6 games recently.

I tabled him, quickly. We called it in Turn 3 or 4. There was just too much firepower. Ctan and monolith one shotted. Wraiths whittled down, all the ap4 asscans murdered his troops, lasplas murdered his immortals, and the few that did get close then have 12 squads of marines to get through.

Its tough actually fitting so many tanks and troops on a table, so going 10 or even 8 tanks would be better, adding a command bike squad with captain and chaplain and all grav. Perhaps anti tank landspeeders and a few pods (command squads are god here. Whatever way you do it, its a nasty force.

When you can break a good, strong decurion force like that, out in 2 or 3 turns, something is not right. Far too powerful really. So the murderous victory doesnt feel good as if it can do that to Necrons what will it do to lesser forces.

Broken.

Very sad. I can't imagine what they were thinking when they wrote that "free transports" rule. You were essentially fielding 2400 points of stuff in a 1750 point game. The difference between this and other broken lists is that this is supposed to be the "standard" way to build a marine army now. You have to choose between playing in groups/tournaments that ban everything that isn't a CA detachment, or you just have to accept that marines get an advantage of hundreds of points in every game by default as long as the player has cash for the tank models. Even free rhinos or pods would be enough to wreck the game.

I guess it is only a problem if you personally want a balanced game, but in competions, I doubt many would care, as they will be facing strong, cheesey lists for the most part. But Im a friendly gamer.

It is just crazy strong, getting Assault Cannon, LasPlas, etc tanks for 20 points. And lots of them at that. You are basically having an extra 2 tanks to fight on average 5 or 6 of your enemies units, on top of your normal forces (which now includes the excellent Grav weapons). Very powrrful indeed.

I guess if they make all new codices just as powerful, then it will eventually balance itself out, but in the mean time, I wont me maximising a Gladius out, as there is no fun in wiping your opponent out in 2 turns in a friendly game!

The list isn't broken and beating a Decurion that appears to have been built to be deliberately bad (Monolith, C'tan, big unit of Wraiths and Lychguard that are worried about plasma) does not make it so. This list is tournament ready and had a bit of luck (1 shotting a Monolith) it is unsurprising that it destroyed a very weak Decurion. This may mean the list is too tough for your meta and thus you may want to avoid it but it doesn't mean the list is broken.

As for the list and Razorback debate I question why on earth you'd fire the las plas at heavy armour when you have tank hunting Devs and massed AssCanns which are all superior vs heavy armour. So I agree with your split the Lasplas bring a bit of range but mainly Ap2, the AssCanns bring horde control and AT.

You seem to know where to go to maximise the list (Grav Command, landspeeders and some special weapons in the units). Though that is not necessary in your meta. If you're interested in what would cause you real issues it is Alphastrike with Skyhammer or DA pods, multiple Wraithknights and Ravenwing with 2+ rerollable cover. In terms of killing power most Deathstars will cause you issues as will Knights though you can outscore them with huge ObSec spam.

I did use the Tank Hunter devs at armour. That was the whole point of me going IF because his monolith was a threat I wanted dealt with early. As I dealt with ctan with snipers, my ap4 asscans took care of his ap4 warriors so my ap2 lasplas chipped away at his ap3 immortals abd whatever came into los, which, with 12 razors, los can be an issue. A lot of my bolter fire was at his wraiths which have 3+ invulns. So overall my targetting was solid, which helped a lot.

Having so many troops and tanks that are reasonably decent is the issue. He, even with a good, strong necron army, just had too much to deal with, and i had so many things hitting him, i.e. a unit pops around thd corner of a building, then is met my 4 assault cannons, 4 units of bolter marines, rerolling, and some lascannons in support. Theres just guns everywhere. I think, for the points, and that much obsec, it is a bit broken, but that is my opinion after decades of play.

I love space marines, but i wont be playing too much of this strike force. Anyway, I have 40,000 points of my Blood Angels to sort out. I must admit, I do prefer cc to shooty these days

The point being he didn't have a strong Necron list though did he? He had a Decurion which is decent but deliberately weakened it with lots of terrible choices.

Deliberately? What the hell are you on about. Its a friendly club, and hes a decent player, and it is not a weak force, its actually a stronger than average force, and recently he has done well, winning 6 out of 6 games, and only struggling against a strong Death Company heavy assaulty list. Until last night when he was broken effectively in 2 turns. No matter what yoy say or think, breaking a decurion in two turns is not bad going.

I think he's just saying that monolith and ctan are generally considered terrible choices. If he did it right - That could have been 40 more warriors.

"Broken" isn't really the word to describe it. It's just straight up free stuff. There may be equivalent perks in other codices but you generally need some obscure supplement or some unwieldy formation with a specific combination of units. The point here is that "The Gladius Strike Force allows you to represent the typical structure of a space marine army on the Warhammer 40,000 battlefield." GW wants players to use this instead of a combined arms detachment. Put two together and you get free transports that can shoot and absorb shots effectively. When you give one faction free points you render the whole points system meaningless. I'm guessing GW wants to eliminate the points system completely like they did with Fantasy.

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Deliberately? What the hell are you on about. Its a friendly club, and hes a decent player, and it is not a weak force, its actually a stronger than average force, and recently he has done well, winning 6 out of 6 games, and only struggling against a strong Death Company heavy assaulty list. Until last night when he was broken effectively in 2 turns. No matter what yoy say or think, breaking a decurion in two turns is not bad going.

If he's not handicapping himself deliberately why did he have a Monolith and C'tan? Why did he have a big unit of Wraiths? Why didn't his Lychguard have a 3++ followed by a 4+++ and force you to snap shot, then multi assault you turn 2?

His list was very weak from a competitive point of view, yours is decent from a competitive point of view. It is unsurprising the encounter was one sided. Not saying his list can't beat other weak lists. I've a weak Tau list at 750 but it us tabling everyone in my new club because they're not used to facing a FBSC. So I'll tone down again to try to play at their level whilst picking my opponents from the best of them. That does not mean my Tau list is strong or broken.

Some free stuff? Agreed. BUT up to 660 points worth!!? At 1750 points, to me, wirh my experience, that is a bit broken. So I can understand what all the fuss is about. Ive been buying GW products for nearly 30 years, and theres always been ups and downs, but I think, very recently, they have taken their eye off the ball just a little too much and too often. Well, were all entitled to an opinion, and that is my considered one. Cheers.

So you lose every kill point mission then right?

 Nostromo 69 wrote:
Some free stuff? Agreed. BUT up to 660 points worth!!? At 1750 points, to me, wirh my experience, that is a bit broken. So I can understand what all the fuss is about. Ive been buying GW products for nearly 30 years, and theres always been ups and downs, but I think, very recently, they have taken their eye off the ball just a little too much and too often. Well, were all entitled to an opinion, and that is my considered one. Cheers.

But it's not free.
You have to take sub optimal stuff. The end result is not overpowered - though it is most certainly competitive. Is a 5 man tac with no weapons worth 70 points competitively? Nope. How about 75 point AC razor backs? Nope. Chaplain? Why would I take that? Captain - not on a bike? Worthless. All formations give you "free stuff". This one just gives you free models instead of free bonuses - (though this one does still give you some free bonus also.)

That Decurion was a baby seal that got clubbed.

Gladius has weaknesses. I'd love to multi-assault your tank wall with my Wolfstar and crump every one of them while laughing at your shooting with invis and endurance up because you have no psychic defense.

 The Shrike wrote:
That Decurion was a baby seal that got clubbed.

Gladius has weaknesses. I'd love to multi-assault your tank wall with my Wolfstar and crump every one of them while laughing at your shooting with invis and endurance up because you have no psychic defense.

He could just take a calidus in a drop pod and kill your wolves in a single turn though. Blessings for you!

That's what I mean, he doesn't have that. And he won't get it in most GTs. NOVA for example counts Decurion/Gladius detachments as taking up all three allowed sources. Not sure about ITC, but they tend to walk a similar line. So if marine players want an assassin, they'll have to stick with CAD.

 The Shrike wrote:
That's what I mean, he doesn't have that. And he won't get it in most GTs. NOVA for example counts Decurion/Gladius detachments as taking up all three allowed sources. Not sure about ITC, but they tend to walk a similar line. So if marine players want an assassin, they'll have to stick with CAD.

Makes sense - it is 3 formations essentially. Another reason why skyhammer + CAD is better than gladius - it allows you to take assassins in tournaments - which are almost mandatory for killing powerful deathstars.

what's funny is that there were a multitude of posts prior to the codex being dropped asking how to make tactical marines worthwhile. I had actually suggested that free transport upgrades would be good (but paying for weapon upgrades) but my suggestion was that the transport was free only if a full 10 man sqd was taken. This could be the balancing factor. As of right now, taking multiple 5 man sqds with razorbacks is getting an added 78% bonus to each sqd for free.

Exactly. Give that 5 man squad a grav cannon, stick an ass can or lasplas on the tank, mix in a few pods and bikes etc, etc. I think maybe it should have been if you take the formation you get a free upgraded main weapon, so 20 points not 55. Ah well, Im sure the next codex released will be just as nuts.