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I get why Angron had to kill a quarter of his legion, I get Mortarion having to do the same. Why did Horus and Fulgrim, these two Primarchs might have had the biggest cult of personality going for them. Why did the Curze, Perturabo, and Alpharious not have to purge them. I mean half of the Night Lords were Terran and were there before Curze came to them. Perturabo was a smart guy but not a charismatic leader like Horus, shouldn't he have needed to murder a good portion of his legion. Alpharious came the latest so it would seem he would have the hardest time of all convicing his legion to turn traitor.

This makes me think that Horus really messed up. Loken probably would have followed him if he just told him the truth. The drop site massacre was unnecessary for anyone but the World Eaters and Death Guard. The loyalty of the Word bearers has already been explained.

Here's some thoughts.

1) Peturabo's sons were, like him, cold and logical. They were not motivated by any other allegiance than their own chapter. Thus there was no break for them. In addition, they were tired of being used strictly for building defenses. They saw this as an opportunity to do something more in line with their nature as warriors.

2) The Night Lords were already in trouble with the Imperium, and this offered them a way out. Legionnaires knew it and had no problem turning away.

3) Alpha Legion troops were trained in subterfuge and likely did not view loyalty the same way as other legions would. Turning away from the Imperium might have been part of a sinister plan that would ultimately benefit the Imperium. They are used to taking orders without understanding the grand plan, thus did not question it.

There are actually a fair few loyalist Iron Warriors, possibly for a couple of reasons; 1: because IW often did garrison duties and things other legions refused to, they were quite fractured and spread through the galaxy so some weren't even aware of Horus' betrayal (like the ones that turn up in Paramar) and 2: Perturabo wasn't the greatest father figure to his legion, with things like killing a tenth of them when he assumed command, and Dantioch for example and his men were left to die on a planet so Perturabo could go and deal with the Black Judges (I think).

The Night Lords were mostly renegade by this point anyway, being made up of murderes and rapists, and having destroyed Nostramo.

The Alpha Legion prized themselves on their unity of thought, and they weren't like other space marines, loyalty wasn't exactly a big issue to them, everything was a means to an end. In Legion they already have some pretty 'blasphemous' thoughts about how the great crusade won't work anyway. However it very much seems that one of the Primarchs is actually still loyal and there's a schism forming.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I get why Angron had to kill a quarter of his legion, I get Mortarion having to do the same. Why did Horus and Fulgrim, these two Primarchs might have had the biggest cult of personality going for them. Why did the Curze, Perturabo, and Alpharious not have to purge them. I mean half of the Night Lords were Terran and were there before Curze came to them. Perturabo was a smart guy but not a charismatic leader like Horus, shouldn't he have needed to murder a good portion of his legion. Alpharious came the latest so it would seem he would have the hardest time of all convicing his legion to turn traitor.

This makes me think that Horus really messed up. Loken probably would have followed him if he just told him the truth. The drop site massacre was unnecessary for anyone but the World Eaters and Death Guard. The loyalty of the Word bearers has already been explained.

Both the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were already "in trouble" as it were by the time the Heresy started. The Iron Warriors had destroyed their home world to suppress rebellion and kinda gone overboard on it after their morale effectively broke from the way they were being treated. They were being run ragged and stretched thinner and thinner to a far greater degree than other Legions, and their efforts and sacrifices went unacknowledged or even actively derided. As a whole, they probably didn't have many hardcore loyalists left save for those stuck in far flung garrisons.

Likewise the Night Lords had been put on notice for their brutality, they saw themselves has having been created and used as an instrument of brutality, only to be subsequently denounced by the Emperor for doing what they were supposed to do, a convenient scapegoat. Not a lot of loyalist sentiment left.

This is in stark contrast to the original 4 traitor legions, where such situations didn't exist, and significant internal divisions were apparent.

What makes you think they didn't?
The first example Night Lord marine in Massacre is a Terminator who died on Isstvan V, the exact circumstances of his death are uncertain owing to the fact that most of his unit was almost wiped out, but according to some reports he was shot in the back..

I've not read them but according to another thread there is evidence of an Alpha Legion civil war in the The Serpent Beneath and The Seventh Serpent.

And its highly unlikely the Shardenhold is the only Iron Warrior Garrison to have sided with the Emperor (the 77th Grand Battalion don't quite count, since they didn't know their own legion had turned traitor when they sided with the loyalists at Paramar).

The Night Lord termie was probably killed by someone lower than him who saw an opportunity to rise through the ranks as opposed to being killed for being loyal.

Night Lords had a very different mentality, they never gave themselves over to Chaos anyway.

Alpha Legioin was still working within their perceived mission

Iron Warriors were all pissed about being disrespected

Alpha Legion experienced a civil war as indicated by The Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent

Iron Warriors have had their own internal conflicts such as The siege of the garrison that Dantioch commanded as he and his men chose to remain loyal in light of their brethren's betrayal.

I don't know enough about the Night Lords but I'd assume that a decent portion of those who were of Terran descent to have possibly remained loyal.

 King Pariah wrote:
Alpha Legion experienced a civil war as indicated by The Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent

Iron Warriors have had their own internal conflicts such as The siege of the garrison that Dantioch commanded as he and his men chose to remain loyal in light of their brethren's betrayal.

I don't know enough about the Night Lords but I'd assume that a decent portion of those who were of Terran descent to have possibly remained loyal.

The Terran NLs were taken from prisons anyway so they were already criminals from the start. I don't think even the Terrans would've had much loyalty.

I would guess that they used a similar strategy to Lorgar and the Word Bearers. The Lorgar sent the loyalists elements of his legion on increasingly dangerous suicide missions before the heresy and controlled who was admitted into the legion to ensure that by the time of the heresy, a minimum amount of his force needed to be purged.

 King Pariah wrote:
Alpha Legion experienced a civil war as indicated by The Serpent Beneath and Seventh Serpent

Iron Warriors have had their own internal conflicts such as The siege of the garrison that Dantioch commanded as he and his men chose to remain loyal in light of their brethren's betrayal.

This, pretty much. The Alpha Legion were busy with the purging at the time of the Heresy, but as Omegon was presumably a Loyalist, it was likely no minor thing.

The Iron Warriors used to have good relations with the UMs and many were Loyalist (Barabas Dantioc), and there were even parts of the IW that didn't even know of the Heresy due to how spread out they were (Kyr Vhalen of the 77th, probably more).

NLs were already wholly Renegade.

Yes, the fact that the Night Lords had already essentially been outlawed and had a warrant issued for them probably led to very few wanting fight for the Imperium. it's similar to why the Thousand Sons didn't have to purge their loyalists. The Night Lords didn't turn, so much as the Imperium turned on them. Of course, the Night Lords weren't actually attacked by another chapter and nearly exterminated, but that's only because the Horus Heresy was so far underway at the time that the Imperium had bigger concerns.

It's interesting to see how FW and BL have succeeded in making a prequel series so compelling. Or maybe it's just compelling for Marine fetishists? As a shared universe project it really has come together quite well.

wanted to add that Night Lords went traitor before the Heresy, but the Imperium didnt know about it.

The Terran NLs were taken from prisons anyway so they were already criminals from the start. I don't think even the Terrans would've had much loyalty.

No, they were the children prisoners exiled underground.

The VIIIth Legion was soaked in blood from its birth. The Legion's first recruits came from the linked prison sinks of ancient Terra. In vast caverns filled with the half-crushed ruins of millennia there lived men and women who had transgressed against the laws of their masters.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Night_Lords

Both the Iron Warriors and Night Lords were already "in trouble"

Destroying their own homeworld seemed to affect the Iron Warriors mainly psychologically, I doubt the Imperium would care that much about killing rebellious civilians. Also being in trouble didn't make the World Eaters Loyal to Angron.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Night Lord termie was probably killed by someone lower than him who saw an opportunity to rise through the ranks as opposed to being killed for being loyal.

I think the point is that it could be either of those things.

I think HH4 Conquest pretty much states that all the legions had some sort of split, to a greater or lesser extent. I suppose they don't go into the same sort of detail for the "later arrivals" as by that point it's not such an interesting point, story-wise.

I seem to recall a quote from one of the NL stories (can't recall, but probably a short story)....

Found it, Prince of Crows.


"Curze smiled, barely. 'I spoke with Angron and Lorgar, not long ago. They told me of their purges, cleansing the untrustworthy elements from the Twelfth and Seventeenth. I laughed when they said it, at the sheer absurdity of the idea. They knew exactly when to stop the killing of the weak, the treacherous and the corrupt within their bloodlines. I wouldn't even know where to begin culling mine.'

wouldn't be too surprised if Pert didn't even bother. Dantioch and the 77th weren't even told of the betrayal until after the Dropside Massacre, and with two examples already, I imagine there were many more.

Hard to say much about the Alpha Legion when we know so little about them. We know now that they have a little civil war going on, possibly between their two primarchs, but what about before then? We don't know enough about them to do anything but speculate if there was or wasn't a purge, and if there was or wasn't a need for one.

 fallinq wrote:
Yes, the fact that the Night Lords had already essentially been outlawed and had a warrant issued for them probably led to very few wanting fight for the Imperium. it's similar to why the Thousand Sons didn't have to purge their loyalists. The Night Lords didn't turn, so much as the Imperium turned on them. Of course, the Night Lords weren't actually attacked by another chapter and nearly exterminated, but that's only because the Horus Heresy was so far underway at the time that the Imperium had bigger concerns.

Not really, They were psychopathic killers.
The Sons were betrayed by the Imperium, Not like they had a choice.

I was under the impression that the Alpha guys were actually good dudes pretending to be evil because of some prophecy or something that their Primarch heard. Ergo, they wouldn't need to purge since who the heck kills their allies?

Besides Chaos scum, of course.

 urbanknight4 wrote:
Ergo, they wouldn't need to purge since who the heck kills their allies?

...Angry Commissars?

 Khonsu wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Yes, the fact that the Night Lords had already essentially been outlawed and had a warrant issued for them probably led to very few wanting fight for the Imperium. it's similar to why the Thousand Sons didn't have to purge their loyalists. The Night Lords didn't turn, so much as the Imperium turned on them. Of course, the Night Lords weren't actually attacked by another chapter and nearly exterminated, but that's only because the Horus Heresy was so far underway at the time that the Imperium had bigger concerns.

Not really, They were psychopathic killers.
The Sons were betrayed by the Imperium, Not like they had a choice.

Yes, but they were psychopathic killers IN THE SERVICE OF THE IMPERIUM. I'm not comparing them to the tsons in all aspects. They were only like the tsons in the sense that they were declared traitors without being directly linked to Horus or joining in his attack. When Curze grabbed his fleet and nuked Nostramo, he already knew he was in trouble. In fact, a fleet was chasing him IRC. After that, he and his marines kinda just went off the chain completely. They were probably the least mentally stable legion to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised if there was infighting, but it wasn't a careful, planned purging of loyalist elements like the other legions. It was probably more like a brief period of anarchy before Curze restored order (which, don't forget, is his specialty).

I was under the impression that the Alpha guys were actually good dudes pretending to be evil because of some prophecy or something that their Primarch heard. Ergo, they wouldn't need to purge since who the heck kills their allies?

It's the Alpha Legion. Every theory about them is unconfirmed. They serve Chaos. They're actually secretly double agents trying to destroy Chaos. Who the heck knows? I thought that was actually a kinda nice thing about the Alpha Legion book. It took a mysterious legion, and, in answering some questions about it, raised a LOT more questions.

I seem to think that in the short story they published on the Warhammer App about the night lords they talk about their flag ship firing indiscriminately on all the other ships in the fleet before making the jump to Istivaan. When questioned why they did it I believe something was said along the lines of, "If we don't kill them now, we'll have to fight them later." So that could mean they were firing on their own brothers there unless they didn't have other ships carrying marines. I don't know enough about the Night Lords to be sure.