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It is already way too costly, but could you potentially push those barrage blasts up to S10 Ap1 if you have a warpmsith or two in there repairing the tank? Or it will not die from the legacies.
You would have a tank that will survive just about anything short of a D weapon, and since melta is negated, very few weapons can explode it. And lascannons do a very bad job at cracking land raiders in my experience.

It's like a 500+ point tank at this point but I'd like to try it at least once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is the achilles considered so bad that nobody is willing to even consider checking? XD

Or not everyone has ia13, or is able to check their copy. You can probably give the key portion of the rule here

The rule in question is fuelled by hate:
For every hull point it has lost, the S and AP improves by +1 and shellshock by -1.

and then they just give an example of how it works, so after 2 hull points the mortar becomes a S7 Ap3 mortar with pinning tests taken at -3.

It only has 4 hullpoints, so by default it would only become a S8 AP 2 mortar with -4 to pinning tests. Which is pretty nice.
It only refers to hull points lost though and not something like: for every hull point fewer than 4 or so. Though I could easily imagine that was the intent.

But the way it is written, it would seem to me that you can keep going as long as you can keep the tank alive. It would even start becoming worth it's points as you keep increasing that pinning penalty. At that point the gun would almost be more appealing to simply pin units rather than hurt them. Making those ridiculous 330 points just a little more attractive.

It hasn't lost them if it has gained them back.

It sounds to me like it would keep the buff. Just because you regained the HP it doesn't mean it was never lost. I think that the Lord of Skulls can be used as a precedent, but you would be best to ask your opponet or TO.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It hasn't lost them if it has gained them back.

I'd disagree with this. The hull points are lost and replaced, buit they have still been lost earlier in the battle. If I lose my shoes and then find them again, my shoes has still been lost. The wording on the second bart of the rule does only mention lost hit points and not hit points compared to the maximum amount.

Iirc the Lord of Skulls rules are interpreted similarly, with the LoS keeping the extra attacks gained from losing hull points even though it have regained hull points from IWND.

The thing with the lord of skulls though, is that they specifically cover that case. They don't say anything about gaining hull points later here. Over course they also don't deny it, hence my question.

Or would you consider this one of those case by case things where you simply have to ask your opponent because it's not clear either way?

When it has 4 hull points right now, how many has it lost?

The answer is none.

The condition is hull points it has lost. It is not a trigger activated every time it loses a hull point.

I get what your saying, but what dethric says is true as well.

To me it feels more right to consider loosing hull points and gaining hull points as separate things. So I can can have lost 6 hull points over the course of the game, while still remaining at 4 hull points.
Also fluff wise, the damage has been done, but it has been repaired. As such the achilles would be the equivalent of hulk. It becomes increasingly hateful despite regenerating the damage that was dealt to it.

This may not be exactly the same but, according to your logic, how would you treat Goredrinker when the one of the unsaved wounds it caused is later healed by it will not die? Would you deny that wound because that model has now not actually lost a wound?

I understand why you would think the hull points that are repaired weaken the mortar and it makes sense to me. But I hope you can understand why I believe the situation isn't quite as straight forward.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
When it has 4 hull points right now, how many has it lost?

The answer is none.

The condition is hull points it has lost. It is not a trigger activated every time it loses a hull point.

You can't just measure historical values with static data.

20 years ago, In my house we were my parents, my sister, me and my dog. Today In my house we live my parents, my sister, me and my dog.

How many dogs have I lost? How many sisters have I lost?
Answers:
1 and none.


Plus:
If The condition is hull points it has lost. It's triggered when the count starts.
if the condition were "Missed hull points" or "Hull points below max" would be different

I agree with your premis but counter with uwnd and repairs wordings: "regains a lost hull point".

For your home example; the values are the same but the now dog is a new dog. For iwnd and repairs(from the various sources that can repair hull points) the now dog would be the product of necromancy. Iwnd and repairs do not create new hull points; they regain the ones lost(so it is like it never happened).

Hmm, you have a point there. it refers to lost hull points in the past tense and then it says that the mortar improves, rather than saying you should resolve the hits at +1 S, etc.
That reinforces the idea that the mortar permanently improves for each hull point that is lost during the battle.

Now the question remains, how good can it get? the strength value and AP would stop at 10 and 1 respectively, but what about the increased penalty to leadership tests against pinning?
I doubt it would ever live long enough to get loose that many hull points and still stand but, in theory the penalty could increase indefinitely. Making it impossible to pass the test at some point. That would require like 9 hull points lost but still.
I suppose that would be fine though, since snake eyes will always result in a pass.


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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I agree with your premis but counter with uwnd and repairs wordings: "regains a lost hull point".

For your home example; the values are the same but the now dog is a new dog. For iwnd and repairs(from the various sources that can repair hull points) the now dog would be the product of necromancy. Iwnd and repairs do not create new hull points; they regain the ones lost(so it is like it never happened).

I saw this after posting the previous response, but this isn't necessarily a problem actually.
If the buff to the mortar is permanent, then it is indeed a trigger that happens when the hull point is lost. It doesn't say to check the hull points every time you fire the gun.

Can someone post the exacte rule, or tell me the exact name to look for it?

Roknar wrote:
It doesn't say to check the hull points every time you fire the gun.

When else would the Strength and AP of the weapon matter?

Again, the rule is Fuelled by Hate:
" For every Hull Point the Infernal Relic Achilles has lost, the Strength and AP values of the quad mortar improve by +1 and the Shell Shock penalty described above suffers a further -1. For example, if the vehicle has lost two Hull Points, the quad mortar's Strength is 7 and its AP is 3, and Pinning tests are taken at -3."

As for when else the Strength and AP would matter? If fueled by hate permanently improves the profile of the quad mortar then you only need to check the profile when firing it, fueled by hate doesn't matter anymore for that moment.
Fueled by hate would simply exist to improve the profile in the first place, whenever you lose a hull point.

Roknar wrote:
If fueled by hate permanently improves the profile of the quad mortar then you only need to check the profile when firing it, fueled by hate doesn't matter anymore for that moment.
Fueled by hate would simply exist to improve the profile in the first place, whenever you lose a hull point.

Those two statements are contradictory and the reason I posed my question.

If you only check the Str/Ap when firing the weapon, that's when you would check how many hull points the vehicle has lost. If it currently has 4 hull points when you fire, then it hasn't "lost" any.

"For every Hull Point the Infernal Relic Achilles has lost..."

So it's not improved WHEN it lost it.

I don't know... maybe they are right since it "regain a lost hull point"

Maybe RAI meant missing hull points.

For Example, The Tyranid Warlord trait specifies "after suffering a wound, in your next movement phase, it gains FNP for the rest of the game" (probable specifies it because of Tyranid Regen)

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Roknar wrote:
If fueled by hate permanently improves the profile of the quad mortar then you only need to check the profile when firing it, fueled by hate doesn't matter anymore for that moment.
Fueled by hate would simply exist to improve the profile in the first place, whenever you lose a hull point.

Those two statements are contradictory and the reason I posed my question.

If you only check the Str/Ap when firing the weapon, that's when you would check how many hull points the vehicle has lost. If it currently has 4 hull points when you fire, then it hasn't "lost" any.

How are they contradictory?
Say I loose a hull point. That means I improve the S and AP of the mortar by 1 due to fueled by hate (under the assumption it's permanent).
Now the new profile of the mortar isn't S5 / AP5 anymore but S6 / AP4.
Now I want to shoot the mortar, so I check the profile of the mortar. It reads S6 / AP4. There is no need to consult how many hull points I have. The S and AP are right there in the profile. So no need to look at fueled by hate at this point.

Then I repair and regain the old hull point. And now I want to shoot and look at the profile. It still says S6 / AP4. Again no need for fueled by hate.

I forgot to mention that the rule is part of the mortar rules, not the vehicle. For those that don't have the book. That doesn't change much for me though, as it is a passive rule, much like goredrinker which will even count kills made with other weapons.
So, to reiterate, I currently see 3 cases.

A: The improvement is meant to be permanent. in that case it doesn't matter whether or not the hull point was regained, since after loosing a hull point it will already have changed the mortar. This hinges on what they mean by improve.

B: Hull points/wounds lost are counted regardless of whether or not they are later regained. This means the mortar keeps getting better as you repair and suffer more glancings etc. To use the dog analogy, I may have resurrected the same dog with necromancy, but that doesn't undo the fact that he died in the first place.

C: Lost hull points/wounds can be negated by regaining them. In this case, you're basically checking against the initial 4 hull points. It can't get better than S8 / AP2.

You want it to say "every time the tank loses a hull point".

It does not.

It says "For each lost hull point"

I sent a mail to forge world...let's hope something comes of it.

So I got a reply.
Unfortunately all they said was that they forwarded it to the rules team for a future faq and that they are sure that we can come up with epic house rules :S.

So looks like It's up to your opponent as to how far you can push it.

Roknar wrote:
So I got a reply.
Unfortunately all they said was that they forwarded it to the rules team for a future faq and that they are sure that we can come up with epic house rules :S.

So looks like It's up to your opponent as to how far you can push it.

Sometimes you just have to work with what you have man. Whrn the DA codex came out. I wanted my knights to be S10 ap2 but they arent. The cannon on the achilles is only S8 ap2. Like a lot of people said you gained the hp back so now do you want the better strenght and ap or do ou want your tank to be operational longer?
As fas as worthwhile goes. Why do you think it sucks? Is it different from the space marine one? Is its cannon not a thunderfire cannon? Cuz when i had my achillies ibthought 300 point was very cheap for what it did.

With the way the rules are written I'd say you keep the S/AP as you repair your hull points. Repairing a hull point doesn't retroactively get rid of that hull point being lost. A Land Raider with 3 hull points that has been repaired five times is a vehicle that lost 5 hull points but got them back. The mechanic does not work on a "Remaining hull points " system.

The rule says for every hull point you lose, the stength and ap improve by one on the cannon. The rule doesn't then say for every hull point repaired its strength and ap decreases by one. Thats the way I see the rules anway.

sangheili wrote:

Roknar wrote:
So I got a reply.
Unfortunately all they said was that they forwarded it to the rules team for a future faq and that they are sure that we can come up with epic house rules :S.

So looks like It's up to your opponent as to how far you can push it.

Sometimes you just have to work with what you have man. Whrn the DA codex came out. I wanted my knights to be S10 ap2 but they arent. The cannon on the achilles is only S8 ap2. Like a lot of people said you gained the hp back so now do you want the better strenght and ap or do ou want your tank to be operational longer?
As fas as worthwhile goes. Why do you think it sucks? Is it different from the space marine one? Is its cannon not a thunderfire cannon? Cuz when i had my achillies ibthought 300 point was very cheap for what it did.

As you can see there are people on both sides of the fence here. I'm leaning towards the idea that once you loose a hull point the gun becomes stronger and stays that way as the hull point remains lost. Even if you repair it later. It still had to be lost to repair it first. Additionally they way they use improve here almost seems like the gun profile improves independently of fueled by hate. And so keeps the buff even if you were to say the lost hull point becomes "unlost".
But I can really see both sides, and making the buff stay seems like a departure from the rest of the game.

As to why it sucks. It costs 5 points more and looses Power of the machine spirit. It also doesn't have ferromantic Invulnerability. Which means one lascannon could finish it, which isn't possible on the loyalist version, but it relies on loosing hullpoints.
In addition, the Heavy support slot is pretty heavily crowded already and this is also an Infernal Relic, which means you can't take any other Relic vehicles without the appropriate HQ.
And the gun starts at one strength weaker than the surface detonation mode for a -1 penalty to the pinning test which I consider weaker in comparison.
And it's not a thunderfire cannon. It's a 5/5 surface detonation profile and that's it.With pinning and -1 to the leadership test. Instead of getting other profiles, it gets stronger the more hull points you lose. I'd imagine they added pinning to the loyalist version too, since that was built in from barrage?
The gun will only be strength 8 AP 2 once the land raider is teetering on a single hull point.
I just can't see it being worth those points with all the drawbacks.

Roknar wrote:

sangheili wrote:

Roknar wrote:
So I got a reply.
Unfortunately all they said was that they forwarded it to the rules team for a future faq and that they are sure that we can come up with epic house rules :S.

So looks like It's up to your opponent as to how far you can push it.

Sometimes you just have to work with what you have man. Whrn the DA codex came out. I wanted my knights to be S10 ap2 but they arent. The cannon on the achilles is only S8 ap2. Like a lot of people said you gained the hp back so now do you want the better strenght and ap or do ou want your tank to be operational longer?
As fas as worthwhile goes. Why do you think it sucks? Is it different from the space marine one? Is its cannon not a thunderfire cannon? Cuz when i had my achillies ibthought 300 point was very cheap for what it did.

As you can see there are people on both sides of the fence here. I'm leaning towards the idea that once you loose a hull point the gun becomes stronger and stays that way as the hull point remains lost. Even if you repair it later. It still had to be lost to repair it first. Additionally they way they use improve here almost seems like the gun profile improves independently of fueled by hate. And so keeps the buff even if you were to say the lost hull point becomes "unlost".
But I can really see both sides, and making the buff stay seems like a departure from the rest of the game.

As to why it sucks. It costs 5 points more and looses Power of the machine spirit. It also doesn't have ferromantic Invulnerability. Which means one lascannon could finish it, which isn't possible on the loyalist version, but it relies on loosing hullpoints.
In addition, the Heavy support slot is pretty heavily crowded already and this is also an Infernal Relic, which means you can't take any other Relic vehicles without the appropriate HQ.
And the gun starts at one strength weaker than the surface detonation mode for a -1 penalty to the pinning test which I consider weaker in comparison.
And it's not a thunderfire cannon. It's a 5/5 surface detonation profile and that's it.With pinning and -1 to the leadership test. Instead of getting other profiles, it gets stronger the more hull points you lose. I'd imagine they added pinning to the loyalist version too, since that was built in from barrage?
The gun will only be strength 8 AP 2 once the land raider is teetering on a single hull point.
I just can't see it being worth those points with all the drawbacks.

I see . well yeah man im on the if you regain the lost hull point you lost it but you have it back, so like i said before you want the better gun or the tank to be around longer. As for the people that have compared it to the lord of skulls its rules say that you keep the extra attack even if you regain the hull point. Also its the gun one shot, multiple, blast etc? Cuz S8 ap2 is not bad.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
It is 12-60" : strength 5 AP 5 heavy 4, 3" blast, barrage,pinning, shellshock, fueled by hate.
Which is virtually identical to the surface detonation profile of the thunderfire cannon. Shellshock and fueled by hate, are the rules that make it better as it looses hullpoints.

To turn the 5/5 into 8/2 you will probably need like 3 turns on average. At which point your on 1 hull point left so you won't be doing that for long. And that's only if your opponent is kind enough to shoot at it in the first place.

Roknar wrote:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
It is 2-60" : strength 5 AP 5 heavy 4, 3" blast, barrage,pinning, shellshock, fueled by hate.
Which is virtually identical to the surface detonation profile of the thunderfire cannon. Shellshock and fueled by hate, are the rules that make it better as it looses hullpoints.

To turn the 5/5 into 8/2 you will probably need like 3 turns on average. At which point your on 1 hull point left so you won't be doing that for long. And that's only if your opponent is kind enough to shoot at it in the first place.

Thats good weapon man you should be causing enough wounds for your opponent to have to deal with it and notnignore it.

330 points good? That are just 1 explode result away from going poof? Granted, it's still not easy to explode but still.
It seems like too much risk involved for those points.

Don't forget that it has to fire the sponsons and mortar at the same target unlike the loyalist one. That's kind of a big deal with a twinlinked multimelta.

The loyalist one is already a lot of points but this is all around worse, for MORE points. Except maybe on the turn before it dies.

I'm all ear for any success stories, but I've never even heard of anybody fielding it. Any Iron warrior out there maybe that have used it?