Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So who would win ? Kytan could Grimoire and Cursed Earth. Both could be invisible so let's not go there. How would you buff the WK for this battle?

How would you buff the WK for this battle?

Another Wraithknight.

/thread

Flesh Hounds can tie up one and probably bring it down in two assault phases with a Lord or two... Kytan should be able to go one on one versus the other and has decent odds to bring it down the first assault phase.

I would agree.

With psychic support he could easily kill the WK, but that doesn't mean that he will survive or stay in relative decent condition.

in a game, and not just a 1v1 battle, the wraithkight could easily come out on top.

I say this because the eldar have lots of options for long ranged anti-tank. And could easily strip hull points at a long range, allowing the wraithknight to kill it. The kytan would explode though, probably killing the both of them.

happy wargaming,

-Mikey

Well the kytan has strikedown, so if, and that's a big if, both survive the first phase, the kytan will most likely come out on top.

Also since you can buff the kytans invulnerable save so easily, the long range guns are more likely to outright kill it than strip hull points, given that they have ranged D right? But then the kytan can itself put some pretty heavy firepower down range to attack those units or soften up the wraightknight, so let's just say they are again pretty equal in that regard

Daemon forge doesn't help since it's not rolling to wound. So it only helps with the gatling gun. And if you ask me, iwnd is the most useless rule in the game. I don't think I have EVER gotten a hull point back from that thing, or a wound.

So yea, the WK still is significantly better even on a 1v1 melee combat where the only advantage the kytan has is strikedown, but he could be dead before that works and the WK still costs a lot less so it's easily worth the risk. No need to buff the wraith knight at all. For the points difference you get extra guns and if the kytan wants a better save you get yet more stuff to make up the points difference.

You could debuff the kytan if you want with -1 WS andInitative to make sure, Doom if your not using the melee knight, Fortune Those are just the eldar powers, that chaos does not have access to. So they could use those in addition to the BRB powers. Assuming they still have those powers, I only have the 6th ed codex here.

So yea, the kytan is going to have a hard time going up against a WK. It pretty much has to rely on that 2++. But at that point it costs something like 600+ points, and it it is going to struggle taking down a WK without going down in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And nvm about the strikedown, I just reread the gargantuan rules and the WK too has strikedown.

The kytan is significantly more expensive then the wraithknight however in this hypothetical scenario. Unnerfed wraithknight has two turns of shooting unmodified str d at the khytan lets assume he prescience and stands in cover as every single str d wristhhknight I've every played against does. Then the odds are at least one of the 4 str d shots will hit and kill the khytan. If the Eldar player takes the melee version then the jump monsterous creature should be able to out maneuver the khytan and charge it and still hit with 5 str d hits before the khytan can hit the wraithknight.

How so? Both are I5 no?

I did a test game with a proxy for the Kytan versus an eldar list with two sword and board Knights. I was able to shriek one Knight considerably and buff the Kytan with Grimorie and Cursed Earth. Braced for the first Knight in cover and slaughtered it before it could strike back. Flesh Hounds with two Lords, one swinging with S10 due to Goredrinker finished off the other.

It depends on the conditions. Assume no Invisibility.


Pure CC vs unbuffed SH/GC:

Wraithknight wins. Why? Both fight this turn and both kill each other on the 1st round. The difference is this. The Eldar army is now down 300-pts whereas the Daemon army is down 525-pts.



Pure CC vs buffed SH/GC:

Assume successful Grimoire on Kytan. Assume Prescience on cc-WK.

Kytan wins due to his better save.


Shooting:

Assume shooty WK in 4+ ruins cover.

It takes 9 shots, or 5 turns, for the WK to roll a 6 on the D-table to kill the Kytan. If Prescienced or Guided, then it takes 7 shots, or 4 turns, to roll that 6 on the D-table.

For the Kytan against a WK with 4+ cover and 5+ FNP, 1 turn of shooting (8 BS3 S8 AP3 shots) will net .67W. Thus it will take 9 turns (that's 72 shots!) for the Kytan to down a WK with shooting.

Thus, WK wins in shooting.


Mixed CC/Shooting:

Vs cc-WK: Kytan wins.

WK needs to go towards Kytan, which will potentially allow it 2 turns of shooting. Assume 5++ Inv (cannot always get 4+ cover while going towards the enemy), Kytan could potentially do 2W to the WK before they get in CC. More importantly, the Kytan can brace itself in cover and allow the WK to assault through DT, thus giving the Kytan the first strike against the WK.


Vs shooty-WK: WK wins.

As the WK outshoots the Kytan, the Kytan will need to move towards the WK. The WK will potentially get 4 shots in before they get into assault. More importantly, the WK can brace itself in cover and allow the Kytan to assault through DT, thus giving the WK the first strike against the Kytan.

This is from another thread here in Tactics...

The Kytan was the undisputed MVP. He killed the Wraithknight, Venom, 5 man Windriders with Farseer, Lhamean, Raider, 5 man Windriders with Farseer and 3 man Windriders. All without taking any damage. Key in this was the fact that in turns 1 and 2 he had Invisibility cast on him. The Warp Storm table was also very effective this game. It was good for a turn of tablewide +1 Inv Save and it killed a Hornet, finished a unit of 2 Swooping Hawks and a unit of 3 Windrider jetbikes.

Anecdotal evidence. With the proper buffs and good dice, even a greater daemon can be as good as or even better than a Kytan. So can the WK - say he was buffed with Fortune, Invisibility and Prescience from a seer council and he was rolling well. To realisitically compare a unit, you've got to go with the averages, not the extreme cases.

True but it does show what's possible with a buff that's easy to get via Fateweaver or Belakor... Maybe not as reliable for a Wraithknight.

For the purpose of comparison no buffs is the best way to go about it.