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In WHFB, Goblins were well-known for their impact units, i.e. Fanatics, Mangler Squigs etc. who did not attack like other, regular units, but rather moved through the enemy with a random movement distance. Now in AoS, as far as I can see, that has changed...right? They still have a random movement stat but then seem to be forced to follow regular attacks - which can easily be a huge problem when taking the 3'' "no fight" zone into account...not to mention that they'd be a lot less fun to play as they are more reliable and less random.

Anything I did not see correctly?

You are right, they have become regular attackers with a random movement. They charge, roll to hit and wound like other units now, but often have a very random amount of damage to their attacks.

They can pop out during your opponents turn, and charge on their turn. They get D6 attacks that do D3 damage. That's each fanatic.
I had 6 fanatics kill off 24 witch elves on the charge.

Possibly the most important aspect though is charging on your opponents turn. They can really mess with the sequence of combat your opponent has planned.

I've marched goblins point blank to absorb a charge, and flung fanatics into another unit. Now my opponent has to choose between ~30 attacks at 4+/3+, or a 6D6 attacks from the fanatics. Do that a few times and the threat of fanatics will change what your opponent is doing.

Yeah their potential to wreak unexpected havoc is still there, only its alot more in your control.

I'm putting together my first Night Goblin army for AoS and there's a lot of exciting stuff to put out there. In a 100 wound army for an upcoming event at GW, I'm including four Fanatics and a Mangler squig. Trolls are looking particularly fierce too, although I'm yet to play a game.

I have another four Fanatics on the way, although probably not in time for my first game. Do you think I should drop 4 out of 30 Night Gobbos with spears to include them?

Regarding how fun they are to play with the new rule changes, there's still an amount of randomness going on, but you're right in saying it's definitely a more controlled set of rules. I'm indifferent. Just glad that taking Night Goblins as an army isn't such a risky choice.

 slowclinic wrote:
I'm putting together my first Night Goblin army for AoS and there's a lot of exciting stuff to put out there. In a 100 wound army for an upcoming event at GW, I'm including four Fanatics and a Mangler squig. Trolls are looking particularly fierce too, although I'm yet to play a game.

I have another four Fanatics on the way, although probably not in time for my first game. Do you think I should drop 4 out of 30 Night Gobbos with spears to include them?

Regarding how fun they are to play with the new rule changes, there's still an amount of randomness going on, but you're right in saying it's definitely a more controlled set of rules. I'm indifferent. Just glad that taking Night Goblins as an army isn't such a risky choice.

If you run night goblins, I find that you need at least 40, with lots of netters, then some fanatics.

River Trolls are awesome with night goblins. When an enemy is near a netter, they are -2 to hit the river trolls.

-Matt

Netters are just...weird. Without points cost, you could theoretically have an entire unit of netters and Barbed Nets are, to me, the better weapon. Inb4 NG units with a huge net over all NG.

My first game with my Night Goblins wasn't so bad, considering I was up against a Bretonian force. One thing quickly became apparent: trying to balance armies through equalling wounds doesn't work Night Goblins, at all. Luckily, I'm able to go on using a decided number of War scrolls instead.

My Fanatics were killed before I got to attack with them. What really caused hell was the Mangler Squigs. They cut through a twelve model strong unit of Knights of the Real with ease. I couldn't recommend them enough.

I also got to try out a giant alongside the Mangler, although it failed to do any considerable damage before being taken off the table. Being able to take any number for Fanatics is useful. I'll be fielding eight as a war scroll in my next battle!

 slowclinic wrote:
I'm putting together my first Night Goblin army for AoS and there's a lot of exciting stuff to put out there. In a 100 wound army for an upcoming event at GW, I'm including four Fanatics and a Mangler squig. Trolls are looking particularly fierce too, although I'm yet to play a game.

I have another four Fanatics on the way, although probably not in time for my first game. Do you think I should drop 4 out of 30 Night Gobbos with spears to include them?

Regarding how fun they are to play with the new rule changes, there's still an amount of randomness going on, but you're right in saying it's definitely a more controlled set of rules. I'm indifferent. Just glad that taking Night Goblins as an army isn't such a risky choice.

Add a giant, they are tremendous fun in AoS, and great in the game.

I did try the giant, but if I had to chose between one and the Mangler Squigs, I'd go with the latter. I think my local GW is pushing games of six war scrolls to keep things flowing quickly. Keeping that in mind, I'd be running something along the lines of:

Warboss on Great Cave Squig
50 Night Goblins with spears, nets & command
8 Fanatics
15 Squig Hoppers
Mangler Squigs
6 River Trolls

Although I've only played one game, I think goblins are going to struggle in AoS.

Looks like a solid and fun list, and yeah that mangler squig is pure nastiness!

No war machines? Spear Chukkaz are so darn useful. Sniped so many heroes already, Hit on 3s, wound on 3s, -2 save, d3, 2 attacks per shot at a huge range. Those things RUIN stuff. Have an Ork bully nearby for precision shots. Re-rollable 3+ to-hit..uhm...yeah...

That's what I thought. I then realized that Stone Lobba were better at EVERYTHING. Literally. Those things are better than the Chukkaz at everything and snipe everything to death.

Sadly, the same goes for the Doom Diva. You can buff it to d6 damage...or...just get another Stone Lobba that always does the average...ish.

Regular NG units need a nearby Warboss. Each big unit + 1 Warboss. 50ish models per unit, all upgrades of course (free after all).

Take Great Moonclan formation and boom. 3 attacks per model, every to-hit roll of 6 gets you another attack, every to-wound roll of 6 deals 2 damage, +2 to to-wound rolls, Bravery 5-7.

Let's assume 30 Goblins in melee range. 90 attacks. 15 6s on to-hit, thus in total, you're looking at 48ish hits. 8 hits are 6s, thus cause 16 wounds. With the remaining hits, that's 40 wounds. No Rend, but hey, not too shabby. Your average 4+ saves results in 20 dead models.

Math might be way off, it's super late. Getting 30 models in 1''? Not easy, but possible with pile-in. Worse, if you play with vanilla AoS rules, you can easily MFA with the netters giving you another ~1/2'' alone if you move them smart. Then again, if you play vanilla, you deserve to be punished.

In general, it looks like ye old Goblin lists. Big units, spam war machines. Just Rock Lobbaz though as they now snipe. A few shamanz, war boss and Mangler Squigs.

Well, I was trying to keep things fluffy by going all out Night Goblins, so I suppose my responses are tied down to what I know. I wasn't that impressed by the war machines in the O&G list, but then again, what can you really expect? They're not going to be ground breaking, by any means.

In my first and only game so far (this is all I have to go off, my apologies), a blob of Goblins with the Warboss riding near was great. 30 of them with no risk of fleeing under Inspiring Presence is useful.

From what I can tell, the Great Moonclan formation only offers +1 Bravery and 6s to hit give an extra attack. When you're taking those formations, I don't think you get the benefits once you're adding units outside of the set list.

If I'm not going to be sticking to strict NG fluff, I'll go for a Rock Lobber and toy with the idea of adding in a bully. The bullies are useful, but not really worth a full war scroll in smaller games.

Actually, screw the above, get a Goblin Shaman in and 50% of the time, you got a blob of NG that wounds on 2+ and has Rend -1. Hahaha.

As there's no other ruling, you can take as many formations as you want, but only the formations gets the bonus (+1 Bravery, extra attacks on 6s). Even not taking the formation, however, makes big units very strong.

Limiting the total amount of warscrolls per game is completely stupid. An Orc Bully would be as strong as a Giant. Legit!

I've always fielded all Goblin War Machines with NG. There's no fluff anymore, so just do what you want. I've put Snotlings and NG on the Stone Lobba itself, a few fungi etc. Instead of rocks, they shoot Squigs, i.e. on each firing platform lies a curled up Squig

Are we looking at the same compendium? I guess I'm not seeing where you're coming from with the 2+ wound/-1 rend ruling. I'm only aware of the two standard rule powers and Curse of Da Bad Moon.

With regards to the formation, I guess that's down to interpretation of yourself and the opponent. I'd revert to 40k thinking where the formation described is what brings the rules and anything else becomes a separate attachment.

Limiting the amount of war scrolls isn't my own ruling, but used as a way of somewhat creating balance when playing at the local GW store. It seems a lot better than going by balancing total wounds which doesn't do O&G players any benefit. As for the Orc Bully… I have no idea where the giant comparison comes from.

As for the war machines, I completely agree. I have enough left over mushrooms to suit the army.The range is more than likely to cover the table, so there's the risk of losing the crew minimised.

NG normally wound on 5+. 30+ models make them wound on 3+. Goblin shaman (Sneaky Stabbin') makes them wound on 2+ and get them -1 Rend 50% of the time (casting value of 7). If going for spears, you automatically wound.

/e: Arf, just saw that NG don't have the GITMOB keyword. Disregard and just refer to the first post.

Limiting by war scrolls is just stupid. I wasn't going at you, just at the said rule in question. f you just say "max 6 war scrolls", the weakest war scroll there is gets placed on the same power level as the strongest war scroll there is. Going by # of wounds is 2nd place.

Really don't like the poor internal balancing. Goblins are, as usual, weaker than NG and the Rock Lobba is so much better than the other weapons, it's not even funny.

I was going to say… After having a closer look at the standard Goblin war scrolls that makes a lot of sense. I unit of 30+ Goblins would be powerful supported by a shaman, but I'm happier with 50 NG spears (5 netters) that house 8 Fanatics. Inspiring Presence from the Warboss and a shaman casting a Mystic Shield is a pretty good combo. Give them a Bad Moon Icon plus the Moon Shields, that gives you a 3+ save from shooting and a 4+ in the following round of combat. Take into account the +1 to wound rolls and now we're really talking!

Regardless of how stupid it is, the GW rules stand in the shop and it means I get some games in. I live in a small town with few people to game, especially with everyone being home for summer. I'll take what I can get.

I think I'm going to pick up a Rock Lobba as I'm dreading my first game against a fire heavy army. I've been watching an Empire player for a while and combined abilities give him 2+ to hit and wound, re-rollable long ranged shots that can also be used against a charging enemy in 'over watch' fashion. Gross!

Yeah, the warscrolls limit gives elite armies a giant advantage. Guess the owner plays OK

It completely depends on what you do with a war scroll. The most this Empire player had in a unit was 20 (2/6 scrolls), and the rest were cavalry, a few characters and a war machine. Not only was he ripping face on the battlefield, he'd also be a contender for sudden death…

That's my worry with Night Goblins. For six war scrolls, I'm still thinking of:

Warboss on Great Cave Squig
50 Night Goblins with spears, nets & command
8 Fanatics
15 Squig Hoppers
Mangler Squigs
6 River Trolls

But maybe putting out a Rock Lobba depending on what comes my way. That's still 81 models, give or take a few dependent on the Lobba IF LIMITED TO SIX WAR SCROLLS. One half decent round of shots and there's a sudden death by turn 2.

You can't do much as a Goblin player with such restrictions. Goblins require several heroes and war machines to do anything, on top of having 2ish bigger units to go out and wreak havoc. Even a mere unit of Cave Squigs requires two scrolls. A decent war machine crew is 2 scrolls.

Just unfair circumstances :(

From what I can see, and the rules are right next to me, is that a war machine and crew are only one scroll. That's a big relief, as what you said really had me questioning any and all fairness in the game.

A unit of squigs and herders is now a scroll each. I don't understand that. They go together, you wouldn't take one without the other so to me that's an unfair call on GW's behalf.

I can only go from my own experience from one game, a host of battle reps and watching others play, but big creatures are just as important. A giant and mangler squigs were a nice combination. If I had to pick, I'd take six trolls over a giant if limited by war scrolls. The mangler squig is a must, and everyone in the shop agreed.

What I meant was that you always want an Orc Bully nearby to back the war machine up and for whatever reason, Orc Bullys [sic] are two scrolls. Would you ever want to field a single Orc Bully without war machine?

There are quite a few of those cases of very poorly thought out rules across a lot of armies. It's one of the things we have already written in stone to change with our comp ruleset. Orc Bullys become an upgrade for war machines, Cave Squigs + Herders are now merged into one scroll "Squig Herd" etc., just to name a few Goblin ones.

Not too sold on the Giant. He seems really lackluster...better than it WHFB (hard, I know...), but rather "meh". I am with you, a unit of trolls does the same job but is much better at pretty much everything. Agree with ya, Mangler Squigs are still good. Good thing I have 3 of them!....and a 4th one is being commissioned right now

Same as Goblins again being worse than Night Goblins. AoS isn't well-written, not at all, and GW purposefully removed balance to try to cover it up.

Oh, I see where you were going with that. I'm comfortable taking a war machine and four crew members without the need for a Bully.

Good going with the Herd idea. I really, really do not understand the mindset of whoever decided to class them as separate scrolls.

Got to remember, the giant is also going to fall over every once in a while. The trolls gets a 6" vomit attack, which is pretty brutal against all but the heavily armoured foe. I'm not sure if I'd go as far to include multiple Manglers. It would be effective. If only we could take between 1 and 3 within a war scroll, but that would be silly… Almost as OP as pretty much everything else out there!

The only way I can see it being balanced is if players approach it with a certain amount of generosity towards their opponent. If you're spamming guys that are hitting and wounding from 24" on a 2+, both of which are re-rollable, you're going to struggle to find games after people catch on. In many ways, I'm starting to think the only way of achieving true balance is if the same armies are facing off. But again, that's rather silly.

I'm wondering if in rules and compendiums to follow, whether or not there's only going to be Forces of Order, Forces of Destruction, etc. Although still lacking in any considerable amount of ranged firepower, Ogor and O&G together would make a pretty formidable foe.

In general, I think that AoS really caught the spirit of a Goblin army and transfered it into the new system. The loss of random movement and "indirect attacking" is a very bad thing and we are thinking about letting it return as it was one of the most fun things in the game.

Overall, however, Goblins feel like Goblins in WHFB - weak and fragile on their own, in dire need of characters but then become actually reliable, good units. They require war machines to work properly and their Rare slot still remains the most important one. Character sniping is a big problem and requires LoS blocking terrain.

In general, the entire LoS thing is bad for AoS. For a game that promotes freedom of choice, it really gives players who love modelling a hufe disadvantage as you make your character easier to hit. One example is the Goblin King model with the Goblin standing on a shield - this one:



It's the best Goblin miniature on the market and it gives you a massive disadvantage as you can never hide him behind other miniatures. You could model a Goblin lying on the floor, on his back or sth. and get a good advantage...just wrong.

Yeah, my Warboss is on mounted on a squig and therefore half an inch above everything else. It's an extra four attacks from the squig which go up to eight when rolling a double to charge. The game I played in on Wednesday, the guy didn't seem too bothered by it. Lets be honest - it's hardly a huge threat and the best thing about having him there is to give my blob unit inspiring presence. if those 50 NGs don't flee and I get at least 30 in combat, plus releasing the fanatics before a charge… Potentially game over from the most basic of warriors!

The LoS isa affects me, because of how high up he is, but again, there's no immediate danger as I'll never be choosing him for Assassination.

Issue I am having in the local group, we use a combination of the "GW Faq" and the frontline rules, with wounds being the limiter on size, is that I am screwed vs any decent list unless I go out and buy loads of new models. For example, played two games over the weekend, got stomped both games. Was using Skarsnik, night goblin Warboss, Night goblin Shaman, 3x 22 night goblin blocks, 5 fanatics, 1 Mangler, 1 bully, 1 rock lobba, 1 doom diver, and one aracknarok.

First game was against skaven/tzeench, Flamer heavy and with 2 WLC, got destroyed as they out shot me and killed most of the stuff before it could do anything. Second game was against a Khorne list with a hell cannon. That game ended up as hell cannon kills war machines, beastmen and wrathmongers clean up the rest.

So am I missing something here, or should I just try to ebay my poor goblins before people figure out they suck?

Great Moonclan Battalions are damn nasty. An extra attack on a '6' to hit doesn't sound bad - and it isn't, for Night Goblins. For a Mangler Squig, whose attacks kill people in job lots....

Goblins need to be in blocks of ~40 or more, and supported with fanatics.

Take the banner of better armor save vs shooting, along with shields.

Shivan Reaper wrote:Issue I am having in the local group, we use a combination of the "GW Faq" and the frontline rules, with wounds being the limiter on size, is that I am screwed vs any decent list unless I go out and buy loads of new models. For example, played two games over the weekend, got stomped both games. Was using Skarsnik, night goblin Warboss, Night goblin Shaman, 3x 22 night goblin blocks, 5 fanatics, 1 Mangler, 1 bully, 1 rock lobba, 1 doom diver, and one aracknarok.

First game was against skaven/tzeench, Flamer heavy and with 2 WLC, got destroyed as they out shot me and killed most of the stuff before it could do anything. Second game was against a Khorne list with a hell cannon. That game ended up as hell cannon kills war machines, beastmen and wrathmongers clean up the rest.

So am I missing something here, or should I just try to ebay my poor goblins before people figure out they suck?

If you're playing by wounds, any goblin army are going to be wiped out. I tried this and learned the hard way, but what can you expect? Just be careful with placing models and maybe save the biggest unit to the end of setting up. Keep a close eye on how many models your opponent has and you might be able to avoid any sudden death rules.

Don't sell them. There's ways to win. Take a large group of Fanatics (8-12 or more), take Mangler Squigs, take a Giant. I field one 50 model unit of spearmen with shields, nets and a bad moon icon. I put Inspiring Presence on them so they don't run and cast Mystic Shield; they now have 4+ saves prior to combat and don't lose any models to battleshock. Release the Fanatics when in range, the follow up with a load of netters and spearmen who get 2+ to their wound rolls.

With regards to being shot at; blobs of troops with shields and bad moon icons with Mystic Shield.

I'm actually thinking of investing in some Ogor models to go with a Forces of Destruction theme, but a lot of this is due to wanting to paint Ogor models because they look awesome.

locarno24 wrote:Great Moonclan Battalions are damn nasty. An extra attack on a '6' to hit doesn't sound bad - and it isn't, for Night Goblins. For a Mangler Squig, whose attacks kill people in job lots....

As good as this force set up is, it's quite likely to go over into sudden death territory. Three units of Night Goblins that are only really effective in units of 40+… You're going to be fielding twice as many models as your opponent with those units alone.

Keep bugging up the Manglers. My single Mangler unit took out 12 Nights of the Realm in two turns. Brutal.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Goblins need to be in blocks of ~40 or more, and supported with fanatics.

Take the banner of better armor save vs shooting, along with shields.

I mentioned this above. 50 guys to soak up any fire power and then release the Fanatics. You're going to see players starting to take really big groups of Fanatics because they're disgustingly good.