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Just looking over the new costs for elites in a lot of different armies and comparing them to Ork Nobz and I realized....Nobz suck.

Without upgrades they die incredibly easily to just about everything, 6+ armor. And without weapons they are S5 4 attacks on the charge and S4 3 attacks on the 2nd round with nothing to show for it as far as AP weapons.

The need a Dedicated Transport to do anything because you can only field them in blobs of 10, and with LD 7 they fail leadership checks all the time which costs them models when the inevitably roll on the mob rule table. And lastly, their upgrades are ludicrously expensive. a PK costs 25pts or a warbike costs 27. So a nob on bike with a PK costs 70pts...isnt that a bit much? You compare that to a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant on Bike with a powerfist and its I believe 56pts? so 14pts cheaper and it comes with ATSKNF, 3+ Armor the ability to take Grav weapons, Krak grenades standard, Option to take a melta bomb for cheap. ohh and best of all, if you field an IC with a bike, all your bikers become.....TROOPS! something orks can only get when we take a Forgeworld character :(

So yeah Im thinking Ork nobs need a significant points reduction, somewhere along the lines of 5ish points per model cheaper and they need access to bikes/PKs for less, maybe bikes for 20pts and PKs for 22?

Agreed on the whole Bikes/PKs/Base Cost being cheaper.

On PKs for a second, I think maybe 15 points, perhaps a bit more because of Furious Charge (17-20), though I think 15 is fine since the the 7th Ed SM codex, Vanguard Vets (a unit that used to be very much plagued by the "ridiculous costing weapons" issue) can take PF for 15 pts.

With the changes warbikes received in 7th I agree 20pts also sounds fair.

Base-cost wise I've always wondered why Nobz are 18 points while an Ork Boy Boss Nob is 16... At the very least Nobz should be 16 if only for consistency. 16pts isn't too bad of a price, actually. 2 Boyz are 12 points, +1 S and +1 I is worth more than -1 A, so I'll say that's about 14 points overall... 2 points for being elites? Maybe Nobz should be 15pts each?

So then a Nob on a Bike w/ PK would be 50pts, which seems fair compared to the Vet Sergeant.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Agreed on the whole Bikes/PKs/Base Cost being cheaper.

On PKs for a second, I think maybe 15 points, perhaps a bit more because of Furious Charge (17-20), though I think 15 is fine since the the 7th Ed SM codex, Vanguard Vets (a unit that used to be very much plagued by the "ridiculous costing weapons" issue) can take PF for 15 pts.

With the changes warbikes received in 7th I agree 20pts also sounds fair.

Base-cost wise I've always wondered why Nobz are 18 points while an Ork Boy Boss Nob is 16... At the very least Nobz should be 16 if only for consistency. 16pts isn't too bad of a price, actually. 2 Boyz are 12 points, +1 S and +1 I is worth more than -1 A, so I'll say that's about 14 points overall... 2 points for being elites? Maybe Nobz should be 15pts each?

So then a Nob on a Bike w/ PK would be 50pts, which seems fair compared to the Vet Sergeant.

Honestly, IMO the 25 points for a PK actually makes sense on a Nob for me IMO as they are one of the few models where they have almost effective HQ status when it comes to how many attacks they have and to top it all off 2W to survive off of in addition to potential WS5 from a WAAAGH! Banner. The issue comes more from their lack of survivability and leadership issues as previously mentioned. I think 16 points per Nob makes sense if they become Ld8 and get Stubborn so long as their Boss Nob stays alive.

Another issue that I find with Nobz is their general lack of CC options. Short of Big Choppas and PK's there's very little choice for such a CC oriented unit. I feel that if they added some variation ala burnas or something like 'Ard Hammas (2 handed, +3S AP3, concussive - 15 points each) or at least made Big Choppas have rending would give them that extra oomph expected of an elites choice. It also makes them a more competitive option compared to taking the more cost efficient Mega Nobz.

Unfortunately, ork nobz are like termies here. Everyone has lots of this models, so GW has no interest in buffing them.

As for the homebrew rules, i've had some suggestions about nobz in an allready old http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646620.page thread where they were given access to doctrines that are restrictive but provide specific rules and gear for each of them.

16pts with the benefits you suggested sounds good. I can see what you mean with the Waagh! Banner (I'll admit, I forgot about it since the only time I run Nobz is with a Lucky Stikkz Mega-boss for wound allocation shenanigans) and extra attacks, but I still think 25pts is too much. Maybe 20pts?

Lack of choice with CC weapons is very much an Ork problem in general. Some kind of 10pt Power Maul equivalent would be nice, and your 15 points 'Ard Hamma suggestion also looks enticing.

Also, how about allowing Nobz to take Cybork Bodies? I know it isn't great, but at least an additional 6+ save is a little bit of extra survivability. Should it stay at 5pts or be cheaper (like 3 or even 2)?

So maybe something like this?

Nobz: 48pts

Nob: WS 4 | BS 2 | S 4 | T 4 | W 2 | I 3 | A 3 | Ld 8 | Sv 6+ | Infantry
Boss Nob: WS 4 | BS 2 | S 4 | T 4 | W 2 | I 3 | A 3 | Ld 8 | Sv 6+ | Infantry (Character)

Unit Composition: 2 Nobz and a Boss Nob

Wargear:
- Slugga
- Choppa
- Stikkbombs

Special Rules:
- 'Ere We Go!
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Stubborn (Boss Nob Only)

Options:
- May include up to 7 additional Nobz: 16pts/model
- Any model may replace their Choppa with:
-- A Big Choppa: 5pts
-- 'Ard Hamma: 15pts
-- Power Klaw: 20pts
-- Killsaw: 25pts
- Any model may take items from the Ranged Weapons list.
- One Nob may take a Waaagh! Banner: 20pts
- Any model may take an Ammo Runt: 3pts/model
- Any model may take a Bosspole: 5pts/model
- Any model may take a Cybork Body: 3pts/model
- The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armour: 4pts/model
- The entire mob may have warbikes: 20pts/model
- If the unit does not take warbikes, it may select a Trukk or Battlewagon as a DT.

'Ard Hamma
Range - | S +3 | AP 3 | Melee, Concussive, Two-handed

EDIT: Cybork changed from 5pts to 3pts.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
16pts with the benefits you suggested sounds good. I can see what you mean with the Waagh! Banner (I'll admit, I forgot about it since the only time I run Nobz is with a Lucky Stikkz Mega-boss for wound allocation shenanigans) and extra attacks, but I still think 25pts is too much. Maybe 20pts?

Lack of choice with CC weapons is very much an Ork problem in general. Some kind of 10pt Power Maul equivalent would be nice, and your 15 points 'Ard Hamma suggestion also looks enticing.

Also, how about allowing Nobz to take Cybork Bodies? I know it isn't great, but at least an additional 6+ save is a little bit of extra survivability. Should it stay at 5pts or be cheaper (like 3 or even 2)?

So maybe something like this?

Nobz: 48pts

Nob: WS 4 | BS 2 | S 4 | T 4 | W 2 | I 3 | A 3 | Ld 8 | Sv 6+ | Infantry
Boss Nob: WS 4 | BS 2 | S 4 | T 4 | W 2 | I 3 | A 3 | Ld 8 | Sv 6+ | Infantry (Character)

Unit Composition: 2 Nobz and a Boss Nob

Wargear:
- Slugga
- Choppa
- Stikkbombs

Special Rules:
- 'Ere We Go!
- Furious Charge
- Mob Rule
- Stubborn (Boss Nob Only)

Options:
- May include up to 7 additional Nobz: 16pts/model
- Any model may replace their Choppa with:
-- A Big Choppa: 5pts
-- 'Ard Hamma: 15pts
-- Power Klaw: 20pts
-- Killsaw: 25pts
- Any model may take items from the Ranged Weapons list.
- One Nob may take a Waaagh! Banner: 20pts
- Any model may take an Ammo Runt: 3pts/model
- Any model may take a Bosspole: 5pts/model
- Any model may take a Cybork Body: 5pts/model
- The entire mob may take 'Eavy Armour: 4pts/model
- The entire mob may have warbikes: 20pts/model
- If the unit does not take warbikes, it may select a Trukk or Battlewagon as a DT.

'Ard Hamma
Range - | S +3 | AP 3 | Melee, Concussive, Two-handed

Looks really good! Nice call on the addition of the killsaw, it never made sense that the Mega Nobz had access but regular Nobz didn't (most I can think of is because it doesn't come with the Nob kit). Also with regards to Cybork Bodies, I feel 3 points is pretty fair given that its only a 6+ for a T4 2W model. It would be worth 5 ppm if it actually stacked with the FNP provided from a Painboy (which I have no idea why it doesn't given the precedent from Iron Hands FNP chapter tactic).

Other than that it looks pretty spot on.

I've played cheap Nobz through the Zaghammer errata and I gotta say that a price cut and allowing the cybork FNP to stack with the Painboy one fixes 90% of their issues.

We'll never have a CC unit thats actually able to go toe to toe with other armies CC elites, but cheaper FNP Nobz can at least bully lesser units through durability and power klaws

 Dakkamite wrote:
I've played cheap Nobz through the Zaghammer errata and I gotta say that a price cut and allowing the cybork FNP to stack with the Painboy one fixes 90% of their issues.

We'll never have a CC unit thats actually able to go toe to toe with other armies CC elites, but cheaper FNP Nobz can at least bully lesser units through durability and power klaws

I don't know about 90% of their issues but yeah. They need a points reduction as well. And it would be FRICKEN NICE if a unit that actually uses dakka could have access to gitfindas.

Bringing back 5++ is a given (change to 10 pts). From there simply adding access to Orky Know-wots goes a long way to define the role of nobz.. The return of nobz bikers for one but also one of the most reliable dakka platforms in the army whether mounted or not.

How much was the old Cybork upgrade? I don't think it was even 10pts back then. With the new power levels in this game I think a 5++ for 5 pts for certain ork units; nobz, mega nobz, ICs is fine. not like its an OP Shield Eternal (25pts for a 4++ and eternal warrior)

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How much was the old Cybork upgrade? I don't think it was even 10pts back then. With the new power levels in this game I think a 5++ for 5 pts for certain ork units; nobz, mega nobz, ICs is fine. not like its an OP Shield Eternal (25pts for a 4++ and eternal warrior)

It was 10 points for HQ choices (unless you took Mad Dok Grotsnik). 5 points for Nobz. Also shield eternal is 50 points for 3++, Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will, so although its still a heck of a deal, you still pay a big ass chunk of points.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How much was the old Cybork upgrade? I don't think it was even 10pts back then. With the new power levels in this game I think a 5++ for 5 pts for certain ork units; nobz, mega nobz, ICs is fine. not like its an OP Shield Eternal (25pts for a 4++ and eternal warrior)

It was 10 points for HQ choices (unless you took Mad Dok Grotsnik). 5 points for Nobz. Also shield eternal is 50 points for 3++, Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will, so although its still a heck of a deal, you still pay a big ass chunk of points.

10 points for a 5++ or 50 points for a 3++ and eternal warrior....I'll take the 50 points on my warboss every single time Do you think 5 points isn't enough for a 5++ in this current meta where our orks get doubled out easily or just simply shot off the table because everything these days beats Eavy armor.

Nobz having 4+ armor as their default wargear, bikes for nobz being 4 points cheaper, cybork gives +1 to FNP roles (6+ FNP if the model doesn't have FNP from other sources).

On the fence on this but giving Nobz Stubborn would be interesting.

Had three biker nobs with a fist assault a thunderfire today. The fist wiffed, the techmarine did one wound, failed morale, failed again, ran, were swept.

That would never happen with any other army's "elite" melee unit, it should never happen with Nobz.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
How much was the old Cybork upgrade? I don't think it was even 10pts back then. With the new power levels in this game I think a 5++ for 5 pts for certain ork units; nobz, mega nobz, ICs is fine. not like its an OP Shield Eternal (25pts for a 4++ and eternal warrior)

It was 10 points for HQ choices (unless you took Mad Dok Grotsnik). 5 points for Nobz. Also shield eternal is 50 points for 3++, Eternal Warrior and Adamantium Will, so although its still a heck of a deal, you still pay a big ass chunk of points.

10 points for a 5++ or 50 points for a 3++ and eternal warrior....I'll take the 50 points on my warboss every single time Do you think 5 points isn't enough for a 5++ in this current meta where our orks get doubled out easily or just simply shot off the table because everything these days beats Eavy armor.

I never said the shield eternal wasn't good. I was just saying you were understating how much it costs since 25 points for a 3++ invuln. and EW is a huge difference to 50 points which is double that. Also, given that HQ choices typically have more wounds and utility than our Nobz I can see a 5++ invuln costing more for them than Nobz. Nobz could keep the 5 ppm for 5++ saves since you'll typically buy it in bulk since they're a unit versus the singular price you pay for an HQ choice. I'm not sure about you but I prefer not to follow the cheesy rules/items of other dexes. I'd prefer that they get toned down rather than us being caught up in their codex arms race. I'm not against fixing up some of the Ork codex but I don't mind having some weaknesses either. Even marines typically aren't deployed in great numbers. They rely on quality not quantity of models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Had three biker nobs with a fist assault a thunderfire today. The fist wiffed, the techmarine did one wound, failed morale, failed again, ran, were swept.

That would never happen with any other army's "elite" melee unit, it should never happen with Nobz.

So you did no wounds to the techmarine with all the hammer of wrath, S5 (or S7 if they had big choppas) attacks? That's bad luck IMO, 40K is known for the potential of some horrendous rolling, especially when it comes to elite units. I had a case where my gretchin overwatched against a unit of charging Khorne DaemonKin Flesh Hounds, I got lucky and managed to kill one. I was in cover which let me attack first and with the runtherd's attacks I actually managed to win combat. Despite them being fearless I was able to hold onto the objective they were sitting on (objective secured) and despite many gretchin dying from a squig hound to re-roll my leadership after losing one combat my runtherd ended up winning combat. 35 points of gretchin beat 80 points worth of Blood tithe buffed Flesh hounds. Would I bet that my gretchin would beat them again the next game? Nope, I wouldn't push my luck that far.

Sorry grim I wasn't trying to come across as provocative. With that out of the way I do disagree with the power level though. I would love for us to stay where we are and have every other dex brought down to our level but realistically I just don't see it happening. Even before Necron/Eldar/SM shenanigans we still routinely got blown away by Eldar lists with those stupid Wave Sergeant Spams and other OP items. 7th edition was just a bad edition for orks.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Sorry grim I wasn't trying to come across as provocative. With that out of the way I do disagree with the power level though. I would love for us to stay where we are and have every other dex brought down to our level but realistically I just don't see it happening. Even before Necron/Eldar/SM shenanigans we still routinely got blown away by Eldar lists with those stupid Wave Sergeant Spams and other OP items. 7th edition was just a bad edition for orks.

No problem. Unfortunately, I get a little defensive when it comes to people saying how bad Orks are in various areas. I'll admit we got the short end of the stick when it comes to being released at the beginning of 7th ed since we missed out on the new Decurion-esque design paradigm and I honestly miss the old deff rolla and invulns as much as you do. It's just that for me I feel that there's little reason to complain, but rather try and make the most of what we have and bank on the update to IA8 giving Orks a little more oomph. Plus with all the formations we have I feel we aren't entirely out of the loop as badly as other factions like Imperial Guard.

It's too easy to get carried away being passionate about Orks, whether its about how awesome they are as a faction or how much you wish for them to be as badass on tabletop as they are in fluff.

my biggest problem is I dont have FW stuff so I don't benefit from IA8. :(

 Ghazkuul wrote:
my biggest problem is I dont have FW stuff so I don't benefit from IA8. :(

The Dred Mob list is for free on Forge World as a pdf right now so you at least have access to that. PM me if you want more computer friendly version of IA8...*cough cough*

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
my biggest problem is I dont have FW stuff so I don't benefit from IA8. :(

The Dred Mob list is for free on Forge World as a pdf right now so you at least have access to that. PM me if you want more computer friendly version of IA8...*cough cough*

I appreciate it, but the ONLY Walker i have is a useless Morkanaut

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
my biggest problem is I dont have FW stuff so I don't benefit from IA8. :(

The Dred Mob list is for free on Forge World as a pdf right now so you at least have access to that. PM me if you want more computer friendly version of IA8...*cough cough*

I appreciate it, but the ONLY Walker i have is a useless Morkanaut

That's why its useless! A momma dread is nothing without poppa Gorkanaut and her baby Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz to help watch over her!

I'd love for this to happen! Nobz should be much better than they play if we want them to even come close to being useful or matching their fluff.

Also with the reduction in price for the Nobz and the Nob bikers, what about giving Nobz access to Jump Packs? I think 6-10pts per model upgrade for jump packs is fair what say you dakkanauts?

I serously want to have StormNobz. Ever since having a unit of that in DoWII Retribution I've always wanted to make unit for the table top. Stormboyz in the fluff have plenty of Nobs mixed in that lead squads so we know there is plenty of Nobs that have jump packs. Nobs, by fluff, get their choice of loot before boyz so I've always been of the belief that if Boyz have access to something then the Nobs already had access to it, made their choices, and what's left over is for the Boyz to fight over.

Stormnobz weren't a thing in DoW2 though. You had stormboy nobz leading stormboyz but they were never in mobs of their own.

Keep in mind nobz areally much bigger so they need bigger packs. Not as easy as taking from stormboyz.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Stormnobz weren't a thing in DoW2 though. You had stormboy nobz leading stormboyz but they were never in mobs of their own.

Keep in mind nobz areally much bigger so they need bigger packs. Not as easy as taking from stormboyz.

DOW2 Ret had the Stormboy Nob character "Brickfist" who acted as a solo unit. Personally I would love to see a squad of nobz using rokkit paks on the table top (they could of looted the seeker missiles off a Tau Skyray). There is no real fluff reason why Nobz couldn't or wouldn't use jump packs other then maybe they somehow need that rebellious "discipline" to properly use rokkit paks and most of the older Orks just grow out of that mindset.

Mind you, Brikkfist was a special character!

The campaign gave you a full unit of Stormnobz if you got up to that third upgrade. They, like the ground based nobz, had massive staying power but they don't upgrade their Uge Choppas to those hammers like the ground versions.

I sure wouldn't mind the campaign units, of course. Chaos venerable dreadnought, yes please!

Honestly though, in the campaign your own units were always hilariously OP no matter the faction.

Yup they would be OP if their stats were used in a multiplayer match. But anyways translated here onto table top they are just Nobz with rokkit packs and 'Uge Choppas which isn't game breaking. I've been itching to see the rokkit pack option for a Nob squad since.