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There's a lot of dissatisfaction around the Riptide and the Wraithknight, and I can see why. I had a few ideas to reduce their power a bit. I play both Eldar and Tau, and I like both units, but I'd really like to not be That Frelling Guy just for bringing one.
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, twin-linked fusion blaster
Options: May replace its twin-linked fusion blaster with a twin-linked burst cannon - free May replace its twin-linked fusion blaster with a twin-linked plasma rifle - free May replace its twin-linked fusion blaster with a twin-linked smart missile system - 10 points May replace its heavy burst cannon with an ion accelerator - 30 points May take up to two shielded missile drones - 25 points per model May take up to two items from the Support Systems list, with standard point costs except as follows: Target Lock - 10 points Stimulant Injector - 40 points Early Warning Override - 30 points
Nova Reactor At the beginning of each friendly movement phase, each XV104 Riptide may roll to activate its Nova Reactor. On a roll of 3+, the reactor successfully activates, granting exactly one of the benefits below until the beginning of the next friendly movement phase. On a roll of 1 or 2, the model suffers d3 hits at Strength 10 with no armor or cover saves allowed. Invulnerable saves and Feel No Pain may be taken normally. <all nova reactor benefits are as presented in Codex: Tau Empire except for shield reinforcement, which is deleted and replaced with the following>: Enhanced Maneuver Jets: Gain Hit & Run; make Hit & Run Initiative tests as if the model had Initiative 4.
Riptide Shield Generator: A model equipped with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 4+ invulnerable save.
Heavy Burst Cannon Standard: Range 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 12, Pinning Nova-Charged: Range 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 16, Rending, Pinning, Nova-Charge
Ion Accelerator Standard: Range 48" S8 AP4 Heavy 4 Overcharged: Range 48" S9 AP4 Heavy 3, Blast, Gets Hot Nova-Charged: Range 48" S10 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge
Wraithknight - 450 points, Lord of War
Spoiler:
As Codex Eldar: Craftworlds, except:
Change type to Gargantuan Creature vice Jump Gargantuan Creature. Replace profile of Heavy Wraithcannon: Range 48" S10 AP1 Primary Weapon 2, Distort
As you can see, the major change in the Wraithknight is cranking up its cost. For the Riptide, I figured a more extensive rebalance was needed, but I may have gone too far. What do you think?
EDIT: Knocked WK down from 550 to 450 to bring it closer to the Imperial Knight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 17:57:34
Hmm, I think that comes down to how much T8/W6/FNP is worth compared to AV13/12/12 with a 4++. The IK can be robbed of multiple hull points by anything with S8 AP2 or better (or S7 AP2 Lance, but there's only one of those...), while the WK needs something with ID or Destroyer to strip multiple wounds.
OTOH, the IK shrugs off heavy bolters, pulse rifles, shuriken cannons and other such things, while they can at least potentially hurt a WK. So can things like Poison and Sniper, albeit with long odds. Sniper's not that long, though, since Sniper effectively gives Bladestorm.
So, maybe it is too much, but I'm not sure. I had initially thought 450pts, but a lot of people cry that IKs are undercosted too, which had me thinking. On the flipside, the consensus seems to be that the new Transcendent C'Tan is either about right or slightly UP, in a 'dex that's full of OP stuff, so I'm not sure what to think.
I think they should probably be in about the same neighborhood. Not that I'd mind if either - or both - were jacked up a bit.
I wish I could comment on the Riptide more. I know complaints about pushing them to 3+ do come up (Broadsides are 2+), but I like the idea. Again, in a perfect world, maybe Broadsides would be T5 3+ instead, but that's definitely out of scope too.
Scat bikes outflank to each side and BAMO a whole bunch of HP stripped off with no save. As much as I hate fishing for "6s", scatbikes have enough dice that it starts to become reliable. Marines have no way to throw that many dice, making rending and grav shots vs vehicles basically garbage for them. It works for grav cents because they have amps.
Bharring wrote: Oh, the IK vs WK threads can go on for days...
I think they should probably be in about the same neighborhood. Not that I'd mind if either - or both - were jacked up a bit.
I wish I could comment on the Riptide more. I know complaints about pushing them to 3+ do come up (Broadsides are 2+), but I like the idea. Again, in a perfect world, maybe Broadsides would be T5 3+ instead, but that's definitely out of scope too.
Eh, Broadsides keeping the 2+ doesn't seem totally unreasonable to me - they're T4, W2 Sv2+. So, like Meganobz, except that they trade out the ManZ' good CC ability for what amounts to autocannon spam. In my experience they die to concerted firepower pretty quickly, since nobody ever takes stims or shields on them (they only have the one support system slot), and they're not rabbitting out of LOS the way Crisis suits, or even Riptides, could. They're big, overshooty TEQs - albeit maybe the only TEQs anyone really likes (does anyone even use Hammernators anymore?)
The Riptide, though, has T6 AND 2+ AND a 5++ AND, to boot, often has FNP. So yeah, it is nightmarishly hard to kill. With just the HBC, maybe not too hard - but the IA does allow for some seriously trollish That Frelling Guy tactics.
Yeah, I was just spitballing my thoughts. Like making Rail weapons Ordinance, its neither in scope for this thread, nor necessarily a good idea. Just an idea.
I seem to be really good at derailing this thread. Sorry.
Martel732 wrote: Scat bikes outflank to each side and BAMO a whole bunch of HP stripped off with no save. As much as I hate fishing for "6s", scatbikes have enough dice that it starts to become reliable. Marines have no way to throw that many dice, making rending and grav shots vs vehicles basically garbage for them. It works for grav cents because they have amps.
The Knight can angle its ion shield to one side facing, but yeah, the other side is naked as a jaybird unless you use Forewarning or something. Admittedly, IoM doesn't have much trouble getting a unit with Divination, but you still have to roll for it.
Scatbikes cannot normally Outflank, though - are you seeing that routinely? If so, what's the trick? Shining Spears can, but with their strong shot being only 6" range, and their melee being a little iffy without Hit & Run, I don't see them much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Yeah, I was just spitballing my thoughts. Like making Rail weapons Ordinance, its neither in scope for this thread, nor necessarily a good idea. Just an idea.
I seem to be really good at derailing this thread. Sorry.
Actually, if I'd had my thoughts fully combobulated, I probably would have included Broadsides and Windriders in this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 18:03:05
"Scatbikes cannot normally Outflank, though - are you seeing that routinely"
No, no. Physically outflank. With their crazy movement. Why would you reserve a unit with 40 shots? Worried about pods? Block off the pods with your Wraithknight and WS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 18:07:00
Oh, yeah, fair point. They are easily fast enough to do that, and yeah, that'll waste a Knight every blasted time.
As for why I might reserve a unit with 40 shots - one big one: IG tank line with lots of battle cannons. Yes, there's Jink, but that turns my shooting into a crapshoot and I still probably lose 50% of the models hit. (Not that I'm likely to ever run 10 scatbikes, because I fully agree that they're heinously OP in those kind of numbers. 5 bikes with shuriken cannons, maybe, or 10 with 2 scatter laser, 3 shuricannon, possibly.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: However - as someone I've seen beefing about the Riptide, do you think I nerfed it enough? Too much? In the wrong way?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 18:14:41
It's got 3+ armor. It's fine. Krak missiles work again. It's the combination of near-invulnerability combined with the PIE PLATE OF DOOM that is stupid. Take away one or the other, and its fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 19:58:29
The wraithknight is actually exactly 100 points undercosted, I believe it to be a misprint.
As to the riptide, the nova reactor is only about 5 points worth of kit, and it really isn't overly survivable/ killy for it's point total. It just synergizes very well with the rest of the army.
Biggest problem occurs when fielded in multiples due to the cascading effect that has on any units survivability. Most people don't have the ranged ap1-2 to kill that many of them and they are seriously hard to bring down with wound spam.
The answer for scatbikes is the scatterlaser should be 5 more points than the shuriken cannon and they should be 4+ save base.
My .02
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 20:25:27
Martel732 wrote: It's got 3+ armor. It's fine. Krak missiles work again. It's the combination of near-invulnerability combined with the PIE PLATE OF DOOM that is stupid. Take away one or the other, and its fine.
My version semi-removed the pie plate of doom - you must nova-charge to get it now, risking taking d3 S10 AP1 Ignores Cover hits every time you do. OTOH, it's now S10. The low-risk overcharge is a three-shot heavy venom cannon, which, as we know, scares almost nobody except Trukks. And it still gets hot.
I figure that removing its CC ability (now WS1 A1 I1), making it infantry rather than MC and toning down the ion accelerator helps a lot. To compensate I gave it W6, Ld10, 4++ (instead of 5++ but sometimes 3++) and a better HBC, which I figure will make running that version actually sensible again. There's just something about a single weapon dumping a giant handful of dice that I really like.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The wraithknight is actually exactly 100 points undercosted, I believe it to be a misprint.
As to the riptide, the nova reactor is only about 5 points worth of kit, and it really isn't overly survivable/ killy for it's point total. It just synergizes very well with the rest of the army.
Biggest problem occurs when fielded in multiples due to the cascading effect that has on any units survivability. Most people don't have the ranged ap1-2 to kill that many of them and they are seriously hard to bring down with wound spam.
The answer for scatbikes is the scatterlaser should be 5 more points than the shuriken cannon and they should be 4+ save base.
My .02
My beef with the Riptide as it stands is that it's deucedly hard to bring down if it stays back at long range, and if it has the IA, it can do exactly that while deleting a squad of MEQ or TEQ per turn, and, to boot, it's not entirely worthless in melee. I may have gone too far in nerfing these things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/23 20:31:31
I notice you made the tide NOT a monstrous creature. That brings back the ol' toolbox commander combo, but gets rid of smash and MTC. You also added a wound.
Overall I like it. It still seems stupidly durable, but it feels like it's actually paying for it at that price point, as opposed to the 180 current version. Also without smash I could actually beat it with a melee dreadnought finally.
People tend to diverge on the WK's proper cost from 75-150 points. I personally think right at 400 is about right.
niv-mizzet wrote: I notice you made the tide NOT a monstrous creature. That brings back the ol' toolbox commander combo, but gets rid of smash and MTC. You also added a wound.
Overall I like it. It still seems stupidly durable, but it feels like it's actually paying for it at that price point, as opposed to the 180 current version. Also without smash I could actually beat it with a melee dreadnought finally.
People tend to diverge on the WK's proper cost from 75-150 points. I personally think right at 400 is about right.
Well, if you join the now-Infantry Riptide with an O'Mortal, it's hellishly hard to kill again. But, importantly, you can no longer just sit outside of lascannon range, killing all the lascannons.
Doubling its number of shots, yes - in exchange for nerfing them from Destroyer to S10. 2 S10 shots on a 400 point unit would be underpowered, even with S10 melee attacks. I also changed them from Heavy to Primary Weapon: the WK should scare big tanks.
~4500 -- 
~4000 -- 
~2000 -- 
~5000 -- 
~5000 -- 
~4000 
20000+ points